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| Costumes ('96-2010) |
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| Dark Eyes - Gypsy Dance |
It's est. that he has landed a total of 100 quads in comp. He's worked on & landed 4Lo & 4Lz in practice, but has never completed in comp. He's received a total of 75, 6.0's before the new COP's judging system was introduced. Under the Code of Points system, he's set 13 world rec. scores (5 SP, 4 Free Skate, & 4 combined total).
Fave Performances: 2004 LP - Tribute to Nijinsky
2000 SP - Schindler's List** = LP - Dark Eyes
'01 SP - Bolero = LP - Once Upon A X In Amer. >>>
'03 SP - Adagio = LP - St. Petersburg 300
'06 SP - Tosca = LP - The Godfather
**Schindlers List Music, Adagio SP really...
Results for ISU Season '24-25:
- Finlandia Trophy - - - Nov. 15-17th - - - - Kagiyama leads after SP! - - - ;-)
Results for ISU Season '23-24:
I wonder how Mishin feels about letting Yagudin go when ultimatum thrown down; "him or me?" Tatiana acquired a ready made champion, but her choreography took Alexei to a new level! Overall, his artistry was significantly more substantial than Evgeni; just didn't have the durability in the end! Plushenko eclipsed him by so much after all is said and done! Will 4 medals be possible for someone soon since addition of team competition? Chan maybe? One of the Russian girls?
ReplyDelete***V&T could very well win 2 medals in '18 and tie him up, which would be sort of unfortunate b/c it took him so long to get here. - Mishin loved better Plushy b/c he knows their personalities. Evgeni is far better person as Yagudin. Mishin and Plushy are like father and son. And Mishin more highly valued Plushy's skills as Yagudin's. Maybe you like more Yag's style.
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I can't see him making '18. It would be sad if someone went and did in just 2 Olympics what it took Plushy 4 to achieve. ...if Evgeni does come back this season, it's not Kovtun he should fear. - Yes, Lipnitskaya has chance to achieve it. If she will compete in '18, '22, & '26. If the Russian team will be so strong she will have more medals, but Plushy has 3 individual medals, so go Julia.***
Just b/c I said Alexei probably had more content in his programs? I lost respect for Alexei and his behavior long ago! He's no fave of mines, but I can be an honest person and know he deserved his Olympic medal and Worlds titles w/o being a 'homer!" I still shed tears for a few of Plushy's programs; Adagio (sp), St.Ptr300, and Tribute To Nijinski!
***I agree with your picks, except for the Olympic Men's '02 event; if Plushenko had skated clean he would've beat Yaugudin.***
I agree about Plushy! He had Yagudin's number by then, even if he was more artistic, Evgeni's effortless jumps always seemed to put him on top; esp. in the SP! If not for Plushenko, I don't think Alexei would have broken down so soon! He was being pushed to put more technical content in his programs due to Evgeni's 2 quads! He was intimidating the 1st year out there at 15! I loved the Jarre program off "Chronology!" Went out and bought 4 or 5 of his disks, but none lived up to that one; maybe due to the lack of Evgeni interpreting the music through jumps and spins! IIRC, he was leading the SP at Worlds earlier that year! Got his foot caught on his quad landing, stubbornly went after the rink for another one falling before salvaging bronze! That would have been so embarrassing to Yagudin and Eldridge at the time; one coming and the other going!
***Todd was a very complete skater, but I wouldn't call him "very powerful" or with "big jumps," "Huge" triple axel. He did everything well, but he was lacking in a 'wow' factor- (e.g.) Stojko's quad combos, which only a few skaters could challenge, Kulik's perfect jumps & speed, Petrenko's big 3-axel and power, Yagudin's emotion and power, etc. Some skaters were less complete than Todd, but their 'wow' factors often carried them above him. He had to skate clean and hope that others made mistakes in order to win. That happened just once in '96 and he was able to beat Kulik for the world title. If he made a mistake, he was pretty much out of contention unless others had a meltdown.***
That was Eldridge's problem; a lack of wow! I seem to remember when he qualified by winning '02 Nat'ls, he went back to those basics, underwhelmed fans with older routine, but impressed the judges enough to overlook the real chance we had in scoring well internationally; Goebel! They allowed favorable memories and reputation to skew their scores and slap Tim in the face who was almost flawless with several QUADS landed! It was great he overcame that "slight" and medaled at the Olympics and Worlds! Where'd Eldridge place; 10th or 11th in SLC with Stojko?
I've been meaning to ask if people agree or disagree with Sasha Cohen winning Silver in '06, Torino Games? She fell on her 2 first elements just like Hanyu, but then skated very well to salvage her efforts to take runner-up honors!
ReplyDelete***I thought she did. Irina also made 2 major errors- a fall and doubling a major triple, and her overall performance was incredibly subpar in everyway, even her jumps were shaky and way below her usual standards and reflected in the GOE. Fumie's skate did not merit a medal, even with Sasha and Irina's mistakes, maybe 3rd place in the long program over Irina at best but still not by enough for a medal. Nobody else is even in the conversation. Sasha skated exquisitely after the 2 mistakes, and in that years shitfest was worthy of the silver.
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Yeah you can make a valid point that Sasha didn't deserve a silver medal for that skate but then you'd be hard pressed to come up with someone who should have beaten her overall. Her marks were pretty fair. After Sasha left the kiss and cry, she told John Nicks that she wasn't going to medal so that she did was a surprise to her too. I don't think anyone expected the other skaters to be so underwhelming too.***
Regardless, I think she's probably the most gifted skater in memory! I think she sabotaged herself by over-training, trying to perfect the quad and ended up hurting her overall career; IMO! She was never guilty of under-rotating jumps; usually for going a bit too far which resulted in falls! I think she's one of only a handful of skaters who can stroke around the ice and and not even jump, but still get a lot of enjoyment watching them! She really was the complete package with her spins, spirals, and jumps! That exhibition of "Romeo & Juliet" is still so memorable to me; the split jumps and spirals were breathtaking! She only had a few jumps, but the rest could have been the only parts seen and you'd still have to cheer her!
***I always thought the quad was more rooted in a publicity tactic she and Nicks cooked up than anything else. Cohen entered the '02 season as a huge question mark. Kwan had all the publicity that year as she left Carroll and was going for her last real shot at Olympic gold, in her home country no less. Hughes had emerged as a major contender w/ that World Bronze and was a heavy fave to win a medal in SLC, despite how some want to re-spin it. ...At the Masters, even in fall '01, she wasn't even close to landing it in practices, but she tried it anyway and got a lot of press for it. She landed a quad in the warmup at Skate America a month later, but it was more of a fluke than anything. The quad got Cohen the publicity she needed and then once she skated well at nat'ls and made the Olympic team, we never heard much talk of the quad again, despite Nicks boasting all season long that she would try it and land it in SLC. Sure.
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Tim landed only 1 of his quads at those Nat'ls. He in fact didn't skate that well at all. It shouldn't have even been close since Tim, w/o at least 2 quads kind of stinks frankly. He has to be one of the worst basic skaters to ever win world medals, but when he landed his numerous quads it was impossible to not reward.***
Well they found a way in '02 at Nat'ls; that's for sure! I loved that TIM was able to secure Bronze at SLC and Silver at Worlds in '02 and '03 IIRC! I seem to picture him next to Yagudin in '02 and Plushy in '03! Where was Eldridge; nowhere to be found? So much for trusting him more!
***IIRC, Sasha landed only 3 triples in the GWG long, many of them being 2-footed. Fumie skated very well, attempting a 3-3 though 2-footing the 2nd half and landing 5 triples total. Fumie's overall placement was accurate considering how she skated.***
ReplyDeleteLoved that competition and the results! Stayed up all night to get the results and to happily proclaim Slutskaya and Plushenko the champion! The faves were obviously Kwan and Yagudin respectively; but both failed miserably! MK and AY were at the same stage of mental and physical burnout IMO! Both were looking over their shoulders; Alexei even crashed into the wall trying to complete his 3A/3T combo in the SP! How he retained Bronze is still unfathomable to me; crashed and burned on each jump element during "Winter!" Everyone was using their new short programs; Irina "Serenade" and Plushy a Michael Jackson medley! I couldn't have been happier! BTW, I'm still trying to figure out why the Russians got 4 female entries; Slutz, Butyr., Volch., and Sok.? I keep asking and looking, but it's still a mystery!
***I remember Plushenko showing up as a kid and landing absolutely unbelievable jumps. I always preferred him to Yagudin and thought he had the potential to be the best male figure skater in history. ...I actually think Mishin has gone senile and Plushenko is being pushed to continue skating by him and his awful wife. He needs to run away from those 2.***
I'll have to take your word for that! I wasn't aware Evgeni was being manipulated or encouraged to stay "in the game" past his prime! So far he's won top honors, so I'm not sure about your "laughingstock" comment!
***If you read the comments on some of the Russian sites, they are certainly less than kind and I think the general view of the public is that he should retire. Having said that, I admire him for his incredible physical and mental strength - to be able to continue for so many years despite injuries. But sometimes enough is enough. I hope his more recent performances won't mar the memories of Plushenko's divine skates in his younger years.
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I think Plushy is more than capable of making his own decisions. Yes, Yana is a strong woman; I have mixed feelings about her myself, but I do believe they are equal partners. I don't think she could persuade him to do anything he doesn't want to do, nor do I think she would try to do so if it meant sacrificing his physical health. Maybe I'm wrong and she's a complete shrew, but I'd like to think he chose better than that, particularly the 2nd time around.***
Normally I'm all for the old guard stepping down, but when the new bloods aren't getting the job done, you bring back the vets again and again; Slutskaya in '06, Kwan after '03, Bonaly in '98, Witt in '94 according to some around here, and of course Plushenko this year!
***Is Johnny in demand by tours? Is Evan actively looking to tour? - Good question. I am not really sure on either of those points, but I do know immediately after Vancouver Johnny was in demand by almost all the big European and Asian tours, while Evan's only big offer was from Stars on Ice (and he didnt even last long there, although largely by choice). ...If anything he probably burnt a lot of bridges w/ his faux comeback to never happen.***
Preach! Justice served to someone who's lost passion for the sport! What a waste!
***I think Evan, like Kwan, was more interested in competition. Yes he did take advantage of his short-term fame like participating in DWTS, but it seems like he's not very interested in the skating world as much anymore. Johnny, meanwhile, seemed more into the applause, fame, and publicity. He also had a comeback, but it didn't seem very genuine while Lysacek's comeback may have been a little delusional and far-fetched and self-serving (and self-preserving of his reputation), but I bet if he could have he would have come back to compete.***
***if someone loves Lambiel, that is cool, but while I like him I personally find him one of the most overrated skaters ever. He is such a weak jumper, practically none are stable. Beyond that though his basic skating leaves alot to be desired. Even his spins are overrated and the scores bear that out. He won both his World titles w/o the best skater in the world at the time attending; Plushenko who's career is highly overrated too.***
ReplyDeleteOh my; blasphemy! Dick Buttons must have been Stephane's PR person and perpetrated the fraud of his legendary great spins! As much as I loved Plushy and picked him to be greater than Yagudin, his overall skating was weak! He put so much pressure on his peers though! He forced them all into errors to keep up w/ him b/c of the tech side of the sport! I posted before that I think Evgeni personally ran Alexei out of skating by forcing more tech content in his programs! Normally Alexei could win ANY title w/o a quad; his artistic scores so surpassed everyone else in his era! Unfortunately for him, a skinny little Russian kid was nipping at his heels starting from the beginning of his reign in '98 Worlds! W/ the most reliable quad of all time, usually adding 2 to his LP, it forced Alexei to add a 2nd Quad and it slowly broke him down!
Even at his best, Alexei's quad was all about his strength and not the technique! He saved many, going rather low on the landings, and those hips were destroyed over the years! I was truly shocked when he showed up at Skate America in '02 only to suddenly retire after recovering so well to take all the major titles; 2002 Euro, GPF, Olympics, & Worlds! I thought Alexei was done after losing his World title the year before in '01! Something clicked at the GP Finale, Alexei snatched the Gold, and never looked back! I have no idea what was going on w/ Evgeni; that strange program at the Finale from Cirque was disturbingly bad and came out of nowhere! He hurridly switched to Carmen for the Olympics and I just hated watching the finish of that 2001-'02 season being a Plushenko fanatic! After Alexei left, he was w/o peer for years, losing only a couple titles through a technicality at GPF and one really bad skate at Euro! Then his hips and back started going, but he held on to finish w/ 2 Olympic Gold medals and 2 Silvers! Who can catch him even w/ the new team event?
***Evan was at the same point as Kwan in 2009-'10 by 2013-'14. The non existent quad jump of his big wins was now a staple w/ the top guys attempting 3 or 4 per competition. There was at least a half dozen men who could often score 20+ points higher in a competition than he had ever done internationally. He had lingering injuries, an old body, and hadn't made decent attempts at a quad jump competitively since '07. He can't even compete with someone like Chan in PCS or other elements in addition to the quad. However unlike Kwan, he was not smart enough to recognize this and plodded on with a comeback which even had it carried off would have almost certainly seen him make a bit of a fool of himself. Don't return from a serious injury too soon and aggravate the same injury! ...Sorry but in retrospect that's how I see his so called comeback.
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If Johnny showed up relatively recently to competitions, skated in competitions, and performed better than Jeremy Abbott did at the Olympics while Evan was a no show, I have to conclude that Johnny's comeback was more genuine than Evan's and Johnny could have completed. - Plushenko's basic skating and posture are in fact excellent and much better than someone like Lambiel. Some aspects of his artistry arent as good as Lambiel, but his basics are far superior.***
Johnny must feel like Surya Bonaly; totally unappreciated and looked over! One year Weir won the lone medal for US World team and the next year they allowed him to miss it due to an injury; sending some "also-rans" in his stead! They held up Kerrigan in '94 without competing; that's for sure!
***Johnny actually competed at '09 Nat'ls and came 5th. If he was really physically unable to skate he should have WD and requested a bye. I know some have said he asked a higher up and was told he wouldnt get the bye, but even if he didnt get it, at least he would get more support from people than as it was, and truly exposed the USFSA bias against him for what it was. The USFSA never really loved Weir and w/ Abbott and Evan both going to worlds already, they didn't really need him anyway, and Mroz beating Evan for the silver and even beating Abbott in the LP complicated things. W/ Johnny skating and coming 5th there wasn't really much reason to give him a bye anymore, esp. when they didn't want to in the 1st place.
ReplyDelete---
...However as I mentioned there was the 2011-'12 season where there was no injury stopping Evan, but USFSA not paying him enough? He said so himself. I also find the self preserving of his reputation part interesting. ...In fact it probably would have been better self preservation of his reputation to have never planned a comeback in the first place, esp. in hindsight. He would have been remembered to the general U.S public as the guy who won Olympic, worlds, dominated about a year, and retired on top, then went on to DWTS and headlined SOI for years.
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Mao could win the next 4 Worlds and Olympics in '20 and she would still never be in the league of Yu Na, or even Kwan for that matter. It was long ago determined she's not even the best skater of her own era since when she and her main rival are both around; almost never wins. She wins her titles when Yu Na is either not there or messes up badly. Unlike Yu Na and even Michelle who dominated their eras, She can't even beat Miki Ando or Carolina Kostner when they are healthy and in top form.
One thing that sets her so far below Yu Na or Michelle is consistency. Michelle finished top 3 at every event for about 9 years. Yu Na has never not medaled in any skating competition her whole career. Mao is like a yo yo; Gold, 6th, 7th, Bronze, silver, 6th, 8th, Gold. ...None of her 3 World titles were won w/ a flawless performance, unlike Yu Na and Michelle who won practically all their big titles and even lost some with flawless outings. You can talk about Mao's beautiful artistry, her great spins and spirals, her huge jumps, but it doesn't matter when she always messes up, which she does even in victory.
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The Kim fans may be the looniest fans in the world, but Kwan fans take sensitivity to the highest level. Why must her more sensitive fans make such hyperbolic comments like that when someone dares to not give a tongue bath for her bad performances? Kwan sucked in the SP. Many of her required elements were shaky, sloppy and she skated like a zombie. Seriously at her biased fan who judged that performance a 5.9 on the 2nd mark...***
Who you talking about? I lived and died watching Surya Bonaly doing her thing in her era! Talk about over-skating, looking a bit old at times; no one worked harder at their craft! Loved her significant finish at 2000 GWG over Yuka Sato and other legends! It was a great finish using that Cuor Senza Sangue program by Emma Shapplin!
***Mao never had a chance against Yuna in 2010 in Vancouver regardless if she was clean or not. Yuna was on a different level then any other skater at the time.
ReplyDelete---
Of course, despite more difficult jumps, better spins/spirals and steps it wasn't enough thanks to the magical formula of goe and pcs, we recently got the pleasure to rediscover what kind of miracle this combination can make, what a privilege it is to be in the judges favor. Keep this in mind, the best score does not always mean the best skate or best skater, but rather the most favoured/chosen one. Anyone, any chosen skater with decent skills can suddenly become invincible once the judges want them to.***
I'm a huge Plushenko fan, but talk about favorable judging! He was horrible in Vancouver and he still made it close; just 1.5 points behind Lysacek! If he had added another double axel he still could have won! I lost respect for the system before they went to this new scoring charade! I thought we were supposed to get away from shady circumstances like this, but it still persists! HOW?
***B/c the system gives them the opportunity to do what they want and ignore the guidlines, and by the end of the day they can go home anonymous w/o giving any explanation. There is too much subjectivity in the scoring esp. when it comes to pcs. At least the judges s/b held accountable for their biased marks. If the marks they gave were fair and just they wouldn't need to be anonymous. But I believe sometimes things have to get really bad (like Vancouver & Sochi) before things get better and changes are made; at least I hope so.
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Alexei Urmanov was my teenage love (in my head). He was beautiful and his 1994 long programme was so elegant. Stojko looked like a truck driver in comparison. Alexei didn't live up to his potential.***
I loved that era of skating with Alexei; probably underachieved, but in skating, many don't! I taped all his performances after the Olympics until he went out with that last injury in '97 before Nagano! He was in 1st place at Worlds after the short like Plushenko years later, and had to withdraw! People really resented Alexei beating Elvis; even w/o 2 triple axels once or twice! Elvis was like my fave Surya; all about the jumps!
***I loved Alexei Urmanov too. Hamilton didn't and could not hide his disdain for his skating.***
Unfortuntely it was skaters like Hamilton that ran me away from skating for such a time; esp. during his pro years! I was appalled by the flagrant overscoring of this puffed up, ego on skates! He overcompensates by lauding other skaters, but I don't know how he could accept some of the awards and wins over superior skaters again and again! It was quite nauseating to see happen when he was flipping all over the ice, obvious ill, and someone like Petrenko that loaded up his performance was dismissed with gratuitous "10's" given to Hamilton!
***...Many great skaters would be happy just to have those career ending results of one last OG. i.e. Kurt Browning or Brian Joubert.***
Add Todd Eldridge ...and you have skaters like Timothy Goebel with his Bronze in SLC and 2 Silvers at Worlds in '02 & '03! The resentment has to be there w/ the other skaters and their fans! Surya Bonaly is my underachiever of all time; her lack of a performance and the narrow-mindedness of judges!
***Tonya didn't waste her talent and potential, USFSA did - I think that Tonya might have been somewhat forgiven for her huge career mistakes if she had ever, at ANY point in time, taken responsibility for her horrible choices. ...She's lied so much that she can't even follow the trail of lies herself. It's sad, ...but she might not be the laughing stock, joke, pariah...that she is now.***
ReplyDeleteI'm one of those people who hold the USFSA largely to blame for not taking more of an interest in Tonya and maybe guiding her since her mother was a train wreck! Over the years I've found them to be selective and punishing when they want to be! I still can't get over them leaving Johnny off the World Team when he was the lone winner of a medal the previous year! It was obvious they had a serious problem with him being "so open" about his life and wouldn't make accommodations for him; maybe Eldridge or Weiss! How'd that work out for them?
***Interesting that both the skaters you name as examples of being held back by the USFSA are skaters that won Nat'l Chps and int'l-level medals; who also went to the Olympics. If the USFSA was trying to hold these 2 skaters down, they didn't do a very good job of it/***
You obvious forgot, the USFSA did try to kick Tonya off the '94 World team! She threatened to sue and they backed down!
***Johnny actually competed at '09 Nat'ls and came in 5th. If he was really physically unable to skate he should have WD and requested a bye. I know some have said he asked a higher up and was told he wouldnt get the bye, but even if he didn't get it, at least he would get more support from people than as it was, and truly exposed the USFSA bias against him for what it was. By actually competing and doing poorly he didn't give himself much case. The USFSA never really loved Weir & w/ Abbott and Evan both going to Worlds already, they didnt really need him anyway. Mroz beating Evan for the silver and even beating Abbott in the LP complicated things.
Nancy was by far the top U.S women in '94. Even w/ her out of medals placement at the '93 Worlds vs Johnny's medal placement at the '08 Worlds, she had more recent credentials than he (3 World & Olympic medals in the previous 3 yrs, winning the pre Olympic test event w/ nearly all contenders). It was a no brainer to send the U.S gold medal hope rather than accept their best finish in Lillehammer by either Harding or Kwan being about 8th place. Plus that she was attacked at their event, and USFSA would have faced a huge lawsuit if they had not sent her, and one which Nancy would have easily won.***
***The '04 & '06 Worlds were Sasha`s to win from the start, regardless what anyone else did. She blew both. The '06 Olympics might not have been Sasha`s to win entirely, but w/ the performances Slutskaya and Arakawa gave, & Asada not there, they would have been hers easily if she skated even her Nat'ls performances which wasnt flawless. I do think she had chances at the big titles in '02 & '03 too; in '02 w/ help of others' mistakes of course.***
ReplyDeleteIt's unfortunate Sasha never really put it all together, but IMO, she's still the most gifted of her era; a true ballerina! Oksana had that distinction, but it was more myth than anything! She also had her moments, but they were few and far between! Sasha may have squeaked out a couple more titles if she didn't have a reputation for being unable to put together 2 great performances! They couldn't give her the benefit of the doubt until '06 silver in Turin! I thought she was done after those first 2 falls, but she pulled it together to salvage something!
***She should've become a ballerina then b/c skating isn't ballet, and her skating skills were quite weak until the last years of her competitive career - - Most unorthodox music to win an int'l competition***
OTTOMH, I can only think of Surya Bonaly's gypsy performance of '94-'95 season! It was a bit frantic at times, but she won her last European title and salvaged silver at Worlds behind LuLu and ahead of Bobek! Using Cirque du Soleil type music placed her amongst the rest of the French contingent that performed for the audience, not the judges! I fell in love w/ Evgeni using some Jean Michel Jarre's New Age efforts; Chronologie medley in '98 & '99! It was odd, innovative, and worked well w/ his young age!
***Probably since there isn't much more to say about B & S and their competitive situation than has already been said in this thread.***
They were a lovely couple, but they took advantage of a weak era IMO! They're the level of Anissina/Peizerat of France; perpetual 3rd placers at World events even though they won GOLD! I've seen stronger skating out of other pairs; B & S were soft, though elegant! True enough I never got into (pairs and dance) enough, so my knowledge and image of them from so long ago is being stretched to the limit! I could be wrong; set me straight!
***"Agreed, and it also shows best career isn't the same as best skater anyway. ...Technically Witt wasn't even a top 5 skater of her own era, and even her artistry wasn't that good in a traditional sense, but she won her titles through amazing charisma, competitive nerve, and star factor. Against Kim and Kwan who were just as competitive as her though; she would be buried."***
Insightful; thank you!
It was Surya that sparked my interest to stay with figure skating! The previous era ran me off; the egos, judging controversies, & allowing pro to re-enter the amateur ranks! With the whack felt and heard around the world, it was a great period to watch with Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko, Goebel, Slutskaya, Lipinksi, Bonaly, Lambiel, and Sasha Cohen!
ReplyDelete***No mention of Tonya Harding at '91 Skate America? She landed the first ever 3A combo by a lady in the SP while skating to LaTour's, "People Are Still Having Sex." Then she landed another 3A in the free skate to a "medley" of "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves," Gato Barbieri's version of "Europa" by Santana, then "Sleeping Bag" by ZZ Top. And although not int'l, how about her other equally wacky and exciting winning melange of the Batman soundtrack, Send in the Clowns, and Wild Thang by Tone Loc?***
I had to order that video back in 2000, but it was to see Bonaly who performed "Sleeping Beauty!" Harding's 3A a lot more powerful than Ito's! I just hate that Mao went out missing every one of them this past season! Didn't she see that even if she hits 3 of them, the judges weren't ready to give her gold if Kim stood up? Silly gamble; sorta like Sasha with the quad at Nat'ls years ago!
***Can you really compare Asada who landed 33 triple axels in competition w/ Cohen who barely landed a quad during practice, but acted as if she had a consistent one as a press hype game? With Kim doing gigantic 3-3's, the 3A was important to Mao to distinguish herself and not necessarily just in terms of points, but her ultimate legacy.
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...I would rather give that honor to ladies that won European title 5-6 times, like Witt and Slutskaya. I will have a tough time placing Bonaly ahead of Kostner though, despite Surya's well deserved multiple European titles.***
It was a weak era in the early 90's unfortunately w/ only Oksana doing something during that period; winning Worlds in '93 before OG in Lillehammer in '94! Surya's last win in '95 at Europeans had no one close to touching her with 3/3's and other combos other women could only dream of! That sort of jumping is now commonplace and about time too!
***Surya actually had decent competition in '93-95. She had to beat Baiul to win '93 & '94 Europeans, no easy feat. She also faced Markova and Butyrskaya in '94-95 who by then were very strong. I would never pick her just b/c she wasnt an appealing skater to a skating purist, despite her deserved success.***
Markova and Butyrskaya had problems with nerves and their jumping was inferior to Surya; sorry! Bonaly had a 3 Lutz/3T that ended it from the first element! lol!
***Plushenko - has lived and breathed skating his entire life, incredibly charismatic, can pull off every style from wacky to high drama to flat-out weird, almost untouchable for most of his career. There is something extra-special about him and his devotion to his sport that puts him on another level from virtually anyone else.
Johnny Weir - marches to his own drummer, not afraid to be feminine and outspoken and a Russophile and whatever else he wants to be, no matter how much heat he takes for it. A true uncompromising artist.
Stephane Lambiel - always gorgeous to watch, endlessly creative.
Yuzuru Hanyu - a true fighting spirit with endless potential.
Daisuke - another real artist on ice, always compelling.***
I second these male faves! As for the ladies:
Sasha Cohen - more ballerina than any skater before her.
Surya Bonaly - The best and most innovative jumper in her prime.
Naomi Nari Nam - gone too soon, going for broke as a child and breaking down.
Irina Slutskaya - Supplanted Surya as the dominant jumper in '96 and kept Kwan in check later.
***I would say '10 Olympics. Chan was put under immense pressure there as a medal hopeful and I don't think he actually ever fully recovered from that experience. The pressure would have abated after the Olympics, but begun to build again as '14 approached. Prior to the Olympics he seemed almost obsessed. Ultimately, Canada did him no favors with its expectation that he would be the 'first Canadian to ever win Olympic Gold'.***
ReplyDeleteIf US TV can't get through the telecast without mentioning "The Curse;" I can only imagine how suffocating it must be for him north of the border! I'd have more sympathy for Patrick if he hadn't been gifted such ridiculously high scores in the past! I was sort of appalled how he was allowed to flop all over the ice in a GP event, only to lose by only the 3 points deducted for the falls; jumps and footwork! I've seen other skaters have the smallest of errors practically disqualified w/ ruinous scores while he was propped up all too often on horrendous performances!
***--- Perhaps the people who should be polled are coaches, judges, other top skaters concerning over scoring. IMO S & P were extremely talented. But back to B&S -- they were even more talented.***
Common sense should tell you when there are abuses with performances a lot less deserving of high scores! Happens all the time! On another thread I noted a GP event a couple years ago; probably Skate Canada where Patrick was flopping all over the ice in his jumps and footwork, but only lost by the 3 points deducted for the falls! My mouth is still agape over that one! Alexei Yagudin was going up against Evgeni in the 2001 GWG's down in Australia! He knew he needed every element in his SP, "Winter," and forced the combination with NO ROOM for it; slamming into the wall of his 3A/3T! He popped his other jumps, but somehow still received the bronze medal behind Plushenko and Michael Weiss! Another jaw-dropper!
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***...If player A has a 5x2 H2H against player B, who has a 4X1 H2H against player C, who by its turn has a 5x1 H2H against player A, who is the "better?" I know there's a lot of things to take in to account... that is precisely the point. Sometimes objective analysis is not enough. If #'s (and who won, who lost) could tell the whole story, why would we debate?***
I think I touched on the subject of H2H and matchups a while back! As much as we put Laver on a pedestal, he was owned by Lew Hoad; at one time 0-8! The only reason we don't know more about the guy is he just missed the USO win in the '59 final to complete his Grand Slam and went off to war or something! In turn Laver owned Ashe even when the old man was past it and only giving brief glimpses of his legendary play by the mid '70's! Going back to that era, even Rosewall wouldn't succumb to old age taking match after match against a seasoned and talented Ilie Nastase! I think Ilie only won once that I saw and it was on clay! Moving ahead 20 years, Sampras was being perceived as the best ever for a while; even w/o a FO victory; 1 semi and 2 quarters IIRC! He was still vulnerable to a couple players you would think couldn't compete! One of them was Richard Krajicek of the Netherlands! Every time I saw Pete go up against Richard, they just got into this power tennis game where the Euro pretty much just blew him off the court; including his win over Pete at Wimbledon in '96! These matches were inexplicable then and they still are!
***Cohen is a better skater than Tara easily. Tara was just the better competitor. Had Cohen's Tara's competitive nerve she would probably have won almost every world and Olympic title btw 2002 - '06. Tara was even able to beat Michelle Kwan many times by being the stronger competitor, when Michelle is one of the strongest competitors in history which just shows how tough she is, in stark contrast to nervy Sasha Splat.***
ReplyDeleteI compare Tara w/ Plushenko when their main rivals were #1 in the judges' hearts & minds; Kwan and Yagudin respectively! The thing is TL and EP were superior jumpers and when they hit all their elements, it put amazing pressure on the leaders! At a couple major events, it made all the difference! Technically each only had one year of superior performances over their top rivals; Tara in '97 through '98 Olympics and Evgeny 2000-01 Worlds! After that Tara retired and Alexei broke down and left amateur skating! Loved Evgeny, but Alexei ate his lunch artistically as evidenced by his lone win over Plushenko at 2000 Japan Int'l where artistic prowess wins the day w/ limited jumping! JMHO and interpretation of what I remember of that era!
***Baiul probably wouldnt have ever had the technical content to compete with Kwan or Lipinski, unless she got held up for being an Olympic Champion. 1995 she would have had a shot at the World title, but not sure after that.***
Where's the "LIKE" option on this site? MK was being crowned before the lighting of the torch at Nagana! I was just going to bed at 5:30 am or so when I heard the result on the radio! I didn't particularly care for Tara's skating, but anyone that took Michelle down a peg was alright w/ me; incl. Irina Slutskaya & Sarah Hughes (twice)!
***Don't forget SLC either.***
They may have tried at SLC, but Irina was the real fave by then! She had beaten Michelle again and again including '01 Masters, GWG's, and GP final w/ just 3 triples landed! All of Michelle's buds were backstage w/ varying kinds of looks and reactions to that one! It was hilarious considering the gifts she's received over the years! MK was actually getting embarrassed; at the Masters finally firing Frank Carroll! She singled or doubled every jump! Her confidence had to be shaken!
***If I right remember Plushy beat Yagudin everywhere in 2000 except in WCH. Which Japanese Int'l was it? Yagudin has around 20 perfect 6.0 scores. Plushenko, even w/o the 6.0 in Rus Nat, is around 40. He has around 70 6.0s in total. ...Who has more artistry? That is so subjective. But the facts are facts. Who can explain why these facts aren't well known informations on FSU?***
That WC was the year before I mentioned Plushy's dominance! The Japan Open I'm thinking of had Alexei performing "Gladiator!" Racking up gratuitous 6.0 scores doesn't impress me; never has! It's all subjective and takes into consideration where the skater performed; early or late! Yagudin skating last at Olympics in SLC allowed the judges to go nuts w/ ridiculously high scores when no one was close to beating him! "Winter" and "MITIM" were classic and I appr. Alexei's efforts, but he came on late to take those last 4 major gold medals when it appeared Evgeny had had his # the previous season; '01 GPF, '02 Europeans, SLC Olympics & '02 Worlds!
***I don't remember they didn't meet w/ each other in Japan Open I think. They met in GPF and Plushenko beat Yagudin. They skated Sp and 2 LPs. Yagudin's programs were "Lawrence of Arabia & Gladiator while Plushenko's programs were Gipsy Dance & Once Upon A Time In America."***
***...I voted for Todd Eldredge. Was robbed of the '95 & '97 World titles, and the '96 a & '97 GPF titles.***
ReplyDeleteReally? Well that will make up for the gift titles at Nat'ls a couple times at least! That was a colossal joke him winning over Goebel in '02 going back to old standard w/ his scratch spin ruling the day! Idiotic! At least Goebel finished a respectable 3rd at SLC and got silver at '02 & "03 Worlds! Eldridge was down in the bottom w/ Stojko around 10th at SLC!
***Wow! You really know how to insult a very talented skater. While I wish Todd hadn't had that fall in the sp in '02 SLC, he finished in 6th place after a very strong free skate. I'll go out on a limb & say that had he not had that fall, he might have finished on the Olympic podium, or even closer to it. The quad is not everything! What I thought was ludicrous was the tie in the SP @ 2002 US Nat'ls. Thank goodness Todd won the title! I have nothing against Timmy, and felt he skated very well @ the Olympics, deserving that bronze medal, but let's not denigrate Todd and other skaters who may not have had a totally consistent quad.
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I dont think Todd could have medaled in SLC w/ Tim's 3 quads. Plushenko had a subpar competition, but was predictably held up, and Yagudin was sublime. Fourth place was probably the best he could have done there. His medal chances were in Albertville and Nagano. He could have won silver skating his best at either of those events.
Tim did not skate well at the 2002 Nat'ls, fell in the SP and landed only 1 quad. Without his quads he can't hope to beat skaters like Eldredge who blow him away in basic skating. To have given him the title there would have been comedic.***
How soon we forget the heart, passion, and will of Philippe Candeloro who took the 2 bronzes medals Eldridge probably should have won in '94 & '98! So much for basic skating skills! I doubt Todd will ever live that down! It was always something with him! I loved it that Timmy got that bronze after the fix at Nat'ls just 2 months prior! The tie was the most obnoxious thing our federation could have done! Ridiculous! As far as I was concerned the same thing happened w/ Michael Weiss, holding him up when he just didn't have it! I guess all countries do it at times, but it still doesn't make it right!
***. Eldredge was not even at the '94 Olympics. How could Candelero take the bronze from him there, was it a ghost. ...Even Philippe's mediocre basic skating is better than Goebel's. He has the worst basic skating, speed, stroking, and posture of a world medalist in history, but thankfully for him he could land 2 or 3 quads every program. When he didn't (1 or less) he was f-ed, and at Nat'ls, he only landed 1 and Todd skated well ...***
I'm well aware Eldridge missed '94; sick I guess! But as I said, there was always something going on w/ Todd that he never fulfilled the promise that his fans and commentators lauded over everyone else during his era! He was the male equivalent of Kwan except she actually won a few biggies; aided by the judges of course!
***If Todd were really that hyped, I would agree with you it would be crazy, but I never noticed the massive hype you did. He was never potrayed as the male Kwan. Even in the U.S, Stojko had far more support than him and had "wuz robbed" in presentation scores chants all the time, even while consistently beating Todd in all competitions. ...Kulik and other Russians also got more love and support than Todd from the U.S media and often fans.
Todd was not this big hyped up skater you potray him as and I don't recall him ever being gifted at Nat'ls. He certainly wasn't in '02 over 1 quad Goebel and his far weaker presentation. ...He was no Kwan like USFSA pet, nor did he deserve to be of course.***
***If you followed skating, I'm sure you knew what the reaction to some of Chan's wins in '12 & '13 were like. The reaction to his win at Worlds in '13 was ugly. After that it was a foregone conclusion his PCS gap would be cut substantially to prevent any chance of that happening again. It turned out to lead to him losing to a skater at the Olympics who had 2 falls and lost despite staying on his feet in both programs and getting PCS barely above a skater w/ a juniorish program; still lacking style who had falls.
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This skater w/ juniorish program at least stands up after 1st mistakes and sell the rest of the program and had breathtaking SP, while Chan was looking terribly in FS- many mistakes on jumps which affected totally his presentation that was shaky for me w/ hesitations.***
Chan's wild, carefree type of skating finally caught up with him! Talk about a skater being held up for ages; mon dieu! Patrick is well trained, fluid, with immense confidence, but he can get sloppy at the worst possible times! I keep thinking of a couple instances where he crashed and burned, but still won or barely lost by the points deducted for falls! What a joke; finally did him in at Sochi! This is a very weak era in male skating and he should have won comfortably! If Plushy can keep coming back and be in contention, you have to think it's very weak! I'm a huge Evgeni fan; going back to when he was 15, but Vancouver and Sochi was a travesty; even with the new scoring system! It's just so hard to watch at times! I have my opinions, but they're being fed by intermittent viewing and keeping up with what's what! W/o a more major contract to telecast the skating, few will really understand how things run and go on!
***Heck, it's P Chan's fault for not taking the gold which was technically given to him. ...And heck, he made 5 mistakes in both long and short programs at Sochi, while his opponent made technically 2, 3 at most in his if you are being slicker. Don't get me wrong, I like P Chan very much, but it's his fault, not the system's fault in this case.
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I don’t want to be negative - but it feels like Plushenko has destroyed men’s figure skating… His passion, pain, grace, strength, weird masculine femininity, fighting spirit… He was unique. And he makes all the other skaters look boring…"***
True enough! Been a fan since his intro at GPF in '97! Loved that new age Jarre medley from Chronologie album! Went back to check his junior skate winning gold medal on You-Tube! He's always been that adorable! He was a little Prince winning '01 WC over Yagudin who shouldn't have even placed, much less take silver! His SP was the only performance that was great; Rachmaninoff piece! He crashed and burned in the qualifier and LP! Hard to be shocked with past history showing little integrity when it comes to scoring in this sport! What a joke!
***Slutskaya by far was the best European Champion. Kostner competed against Slute at Europeans for about 3-4 seasons, and each time Irina skated away w/ the title. Matter of fact, Kostner was not a competition Slutskaya worried too much about.***
There was so much pressure put on her around Turin, Carolina didn't come into her own until the last several years! She was an "also ran" until other skaters left the sport like Slutskaya, Butyurskaya, & Sasha Cohen!
***Kostner is a better skater than Irina. Irina benefited in her time from weak competition at both the European and World level; often being overscored as well.***
ReplyDeleteIf Irina was such a poor skater, why did Michelle lose to her so many times? What does that say about MK after all is said and done?
***I never said Michelle was some goddess did I? IMO both Michelle and Irina are overrated, skating in an era with no depth which allowed their relatively easy dominance for years, and both benefiting from some serious genorosity from the judges too. Michelle probably even more than Irina, but Irina was scored on the high side more often than not as well, esp. when she didnt skate her best and the judges seemingly ignored her problems and the flaws of her skating. Remember her 2nd last European title in '05 when she landed only 3 triples. If you want to argue her win had merits even w/ that skate then fine, but that only proves my other point of her competition mostly being very weak too, esp. at Europeans.***
Oh I think scoring has been a major joke for decades! I sorta remember a GPF where Irina performed 3 triples to Kwan's 5 and all she could do was make faces with her commiserates! It was hilarious considering previous generous scoring for her in the past!
***Todd deserved the '95, '96, '97, '98, and '01 World titles. In '98, Yagudin should have been 3rd in the long behind Zagorodniu. In '97 he should have won by winning the SP, even though Stojko deserved the long. In '01 I would have him winning over Plushenko who had no artistry at all back then, an awful LP, and did only 1 quad. Yagudin's "Gladiator" was a masterpierce and he would blow everyone away w/ it if it were clean, but he had his problems. In '98, he should have won the Olympic silver even with his mistakes. He deserved 1st place in the short and 2nd or 3rd in the long.***
Seek serious help babe! Yagudin was hurt or injured, was flopping all over the place and only had one good performance; that being his SP! He was unable to do what he wanted and he shouldn't have even medaled after a disastrous "Qualifying!" I won't even dignify the rest as being rational; sorry!
***I know Yagudin was gifted at the '01 Worlds. That's what I said. I also said his 'Gladiator' was a masterpiece and it is too bad he was hurt allowing Plushenko's thrashy junk program he would have killed otherwise to win; and even then I would have given Todd, even w/o the quad the win over Plushenko. Plushenko's program was junk aside from jumps, and he only did 1 quad too. It is just a shame Yagudin who had a stunning program that was 3 times better than Plushenko, nothing but jumps and crossover routines w/ vile and tacky posing and hip thrusting was hurt and missed about half his jumps as a result. Yes, I know you still have to do the jumps too and unfortunately Yagudin didn't (except SP) and yes he was lucky to even come 2nd. Should have been 3rd behind Eldredge or even 4th behind Goebel.***
So by your thinking, at the GWG's in '01, it shb won by Yagudin as well; his masterpieces being "Winter" for the SP and equally brilliant "MITIM" for the long! There's just one problem, he also crashed and burned there; in the short colliding with the wall after his combo in the SP, then systematically singling and doubling the remaining jumps! Again he was gifted a medal; bronze behind Michael Weiss! That was a colossal joke and the judges shb ashamed of themselves, but unfortunately they have none!
ReplyDelete***I didn't say Yagudin should have beaten Plushenko at those particular events given the performances. I'm saying it's unfortunate Yagudin missed so many jumps that allowed Plushenko w/ his garbage empty choreography and jumps-only based performances to win. That said I do think Plushenko is highly overmarked, except for '03-'05 when he skated well, he really had the whole package going. I think Yagudin should have at least a 1 mistake advantage, if not more, and it was crazy Plushenko won an event like the 2000 GPF where Yagudin had only 1 mistake in his LP. I think a skater like Eldredge skating like he did at the '01 Worlds could have beaten him, even w/o a quad, esp/ w/ Plushenko doing only 1 that night and having probably his worst choreographed program ever that year for his LP.***
No, you have a problem making logical sense! You have too many "what if" and "buts" instead of stating the facts at the time! Your circular logic is making my head swim! BTW, that '01 program was part MK and "Once Upon A Time in America!" I loved it; regardless of what others think of it!
***As much as I liked Alexei's "Gladiator" program, he should not have finished 2nd @ '01 Worlds. I realize he was injured and was flopping all over the place during the free skate. I don't question his '02 OGM @ all (and "Winter" was a wonderful SP and I really liked "The Man in the Iron Mask"), but Todd deserved no less than silver @ those Worlds. It's a travesty that he was awarded the bronze, but he took it all in stride, and was thrilled to have a podium finish.
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The judges viewed Plushenko and Yagudin as gods by then though and nobody could challenge them unless they landed only 2 or 3 triples in the judges eyes. ...I remember Skate America that season Yagudin landing only 3 triples and losing by only one judge to Goebel who had a clean 3 quad and 7 triple performance.***
That Skate America judging should have been investigated with the officials being suspended! ALexei was a mess, even fell during a spiral! It was absolutely ridiculous that Goebel landed pretty much everything while Yagudin was totally out of it, but was still very close to winning anyway! I might have stopped watching the sport for a few years if not for Evgeny! I could "cold turkey" unless there's a skater I really need to see! Well Alexei put it all together his last season by the GPF, taking it, the Olympics, Euro, and Worlds! I thought he was done the year before! He went out on a high note; except trying to perform at Skate America where he retired for good from Am Ranks with serious hip injury!
***Chan excepted, which men benefited from this anti-Russian conspiracy during the years of Yagudin/Plushenko dominance? If you want to bring up Lysacek, Buttle, Stoijko and Perhaps Goebel, I don't think you have much of a case; esp. given how many times they were beaten by Russian men. I can't stand Lysacek, but didn't see any strength in the argument that he should have won the '10 Olympics.***
ReplyDeleteI've been a huge fan of Evgeny's since his junior days, collecting most of his performances from tv and online, but he was lucky to get silver IMO! It was pretty much a travesty to me that he was only a double axel from winning Vancouver! His performance was shaky; like his landings! True enough he hit his quad and Lysacek didn't even attempt one, but I was very disappointed in his landings and thought he was fortunate in salvaging runner-up honors! It was made worse when Evgeny and Mishin ranted for the next couple days about the quad situation! I guess I'll be called a traitor, but that's the memory I have of the event! I haven't pulled the tape out since recording it 4 years ago! - BTW, I can't stand Lysacek either; which is another reason not to watch the tape again! He's a self-entitled little punk who all too often had something snide to say about Weir; his major rival! "What are the differences in you 2," a reporter my ask! Evan might have to throw shade with "let me count the ways!" He's a jerk and I don't miss him! He's typical of someone who can't back it up; won't even try! Gutless after all these years as well!
***I agree and also was on the Plushy bandwagon. I loved his '02 Carmen - it's one of my favorites. ...Evan got filthy rich in the process. Life is so not fair.***
Sorry to say I couldn't stand the Carmen number! Mishin had taken Yagudin to a World Bronze medal win w/ it in '97! To this day I still don't understand why Plushy went to it! At the '01 GPF, he was performing a Cirque du Soleil # and I was looking forward to him doing it again at the '02 Olympics! I should have known something was going on when Plushy didn't show up to Europeans allowing time to train w/ Bizet! He used Carmen through the exhibition season and I didn't collect those; ex: Hershey's Kisses Figure Skating Challenge! Funny I was a fan of Yagudin before he started belittling Evgeny! Why he gave Mishin an ultimatum I'll never understand! I guess it suited him to take on Tatiana as his new coach! They had a shaky start period where Plushy owned him for a couple years, but it worked out in the end w/ Alexei taking all the major titles in '01-02 season including the GPF, Euros, Olympics and Worlds! After '01 GWG's in Australia, I thought Yagudin was done! What went on there? His confidence had to be shot! Crashing into the wall and doubling jumps had to be terribly embarrassing!
***Plushenko's Carmen was much better than Yagudin's. The reason he switched to it was the judges did not give him the win with Cirque at the GPF, so he knew he couldn't win the OGM w/ it. I am amazed that he was able to perform Carmen so well after making a change that late in the season.***
He didn't win w/ Carmen either; mistake in both of his major quad combos! Plushy could win w/ any kind of music if he completed his jumps, pressuring Alexei to be perfect even w/ such great programs! I used to see and hear Alexei would glance over at Tatiana with a 1 or 2 finger motion! If she looked downcast and put up 2 fingers, that meant Evgeny went first and hit 2 quads! Yagudin was the only skater up to then to be so successful w/ that jump; including Stojko, but he needed 2 against Plushenko and it played on his mind I thought! Alexei could beat anyone else w/o even doing a quad, his programs were so complete, but Plushy's tech. prowess truly worked on him for a couple years w/ the animus getting worse all the time!
***...I really liked Yagudin, but many of his competitive decisions were heavily calculated.
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I'm no fan of the 3 skaters you mentioned, but I don't agree with the comment. It's just the way the chips fell for them. About competing at Worlds in an Olympic year, it's up to the skater how he/she feels after winning an OGM- whether to compete at worlds or not.***
Shocking! Thanks for the info! I had a real problem with how Alexei was treating his teammate Evgeny! To me he had no real reason to be jealous! He had all the ability in the world and the judges loved him! He sabotaged himself in a lot of ways, but he wound up surviving '02 and taking all the major titles! I sometimes wonder did he leave knowing Evgeny was coming into his own and would displace him permanently!
***In some ways, I think Yagudin almost lucked into the '02 Olympic win. Before his fans lose their shit, he 100% deserved his win and he 100% delivered. Yet I was a huge Yagudin fan at the time who felt very pessimistic about his chances in SLC before the SP even though he was on a big winning streak. But Yagudin wasn't the overwhelming favorite at the start of the season. He was coming off a horrible worlds, disappointing previous season and Plushenko seemed to have the support from the judges and I felt certain he would peak at the right time. Sure Yagudin had the better programs and I VASTLY preferred him to Plushenko, but I'm not sure the judges felt the same way. Plushenko falling in the short was the best thing to happen to Yagudin in both the short and long program. I'm not so sure he'd have performed as well in the long had he not had the peace of mind that Plushenko winning overall was an uphill battle.
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I agree that G/P were overmarked in '94 Olympics, '97 Worlds, and maybe in '98 Olympics (but the last case is not so obvious). I must admit I don't remember 1995 Worlds that well. I have always thought they had no competition then.***
I have t/b honest; didn't care for the Olympics allowing past champions who had turned pro to come back! Skaters like Boitano & Witt were unfairly taking up spots in a 'supposed' amateur event and had little chance of winning in '94! They were "done" in so many ways and I didn't mind the judges using discretion to undercut other skaters in pairs and dance events! My position softened with Plushenko because the Russian men were terribly inadequate and didn't have much of a chance to even be in the top 10! He may have to come back again 4 yrs!
***Chan, Lambiel, Takahashi, Lysacek, whom had the best career?
1. Chan : 3 WC golds - total 5 WC medals - Olympics silver - 2 GPF golds - 7 WR settings
2. Lysacek : 1 WC gold - total 3 WC medals - Olympics gold - 1 GPF gold - 0 WR setting
3. Lambiel : 2 WC golds - total 3 WC medals - Olympics silver - 2 GPF golds - 0 WR setting
4. Takahashi : 1 WC gold - total 3 WC medals - Olympics bronze - 1 GPF gold - 3 WR settings
* Plushenko : 3 WC golds - total 5 WC medals - Olympics gold - 2 Olympics silvers - 4 GPF golds - 13 WR settings wow.
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Lysacek vs Lambiel is an interesting comparision. Is the difference of an Olympic gold to silver more or less than the difference of a Worlds gold to bronze? If it is the same, I guess you have to go with Lambiel due to the extra GPF.
Takahashi is unique too. Does the WR set push him above Lambiel and Lysacek despite his lesser medals/titles? Is that even an achievement? Chan is the easy winner.
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I would pick Lambiel 2nd barely over Evan. His extra World title, extra GP Final title, Olympic silver, 7 Nat'l titles vs Evan's 2, & 3 European silvers which Evan would not have managed are enough to overcome Evan's Olympic gold. Takahashi is 4th and last.***
***...The Tara attention and media hype in the early going came entirely from the press and her camp. It had nothing to do w/ the USFSA. They were always down on Harding, but they never worshipped her like Kwan, Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, or Cohen. They can't as much as they wish they could. They tried to ban Brennan, but she came right back in their faces and made them look like fools.***
ReplyDeleteWell you're partially right! Sasha was never a darling of the USFSA; esp. when Tarasova was her coach! As for Brennan, she was on the "outs" b/c of her book which exposed and embarrassed the sport w/ how many deaths had occurred over the years due to AIDS! That's what I heard back then! She was persona non gratis for a while, but made it back into their good graces later!
***Well it seemed the U.S judges would never let Sasha beat a clean Kwan at Nat'ls unless she were perfect, and since we all know the USFSA is 95% of what the U.S judges will do, I guess you are right she isn't really a big fed. fave like Kwan, Yamaguchi, or Kerrigan either.
I don't know why Brennan was on the outs, but in the end all she proved is Brennan > USFSA in the sport. They couldn't keep her out, the whole skating community got behind Brennan and dumped on the USFSA, and they were forced to reinstate her before she missed anything, and then she mocked them in her book about it. It made them look like fools in the end.
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I would say Kim Yuna is more dominant than Kwan since even if you roughly est. she skated only 6 seasons (she skated 7 tech., but none of the last 3 were a whole season), she had a lower ratio of losses than Michelle. I recall her losing 2 events in '06-'07, only 1 in '07-'08, only 1 in '08-'09, only 1 in '09-'10, and then 2 in the remaining years. Michelle had 2 in '95-'96, 3 in '96-'97, 1 in '97-'98, 1 in '98-'99, 1 in '99-'00, 3 in '00-'01, 5 in '01-'02, 0 in '02-'03. I am not even counting her post or pre-prime years. Kwan averaged 2 per season, and Kim averaged only 1.1 per season, even not counting Kim's final 3 seasons as full seasons.
From fall '07 to summer '10 esp., it seemed like Kim barely lost, and it was a huge upset taking a lot of mistakes or a bad injury for her to lose. The only time Kwan felt dominant was the year after Tara retired and before Irina emerged as a threat, and the 95-96 season. I guess you could add the '02-'03 season. She was undefeated despite that she barely even competed, and didnt face Sasha when she was skating really well during the GP season, but only Sasha-Splat Nat'ls and Worlds. ...In between that, she had long periods she was heavily pressed by either Lipinski, Slutskaya, or a variety of skaters. Averaging about 1 fewer loss per season when you are comparing 2 skaters over a long 6-7 year period, and owning all your biggest rivals while Kwan was usually losing to Lipinski and Slutskaya in their primes.
ITA Kwan had better longevity, but longevity and dominance are not the same thing. They are a seperate category. I'm cutting the assessment of Kwan's career and dominance off when she was younger than Kim is now, and discounting her early years to the point she was almost the age Kim was finally fully age eligible, so whether Kim would have remained dominant in the future is moot as if we are cutting evaluating Kwan's dominance and win record off at age 22 to be as favorable and fair as possible to her.
As for the GP, the seeding system means you almost never meet your main rivals until the Final. So unless you're frequently winning the GPF vs all your main competition, plus regularly winning the regular GP, U R not dominating the period. ...For instance in the '99-'03 period, Kwan lost all 5 GP meetings with Slutskaya, 3 at the GPF, and their only 2 regular GP meetings.***
***Best skaters of last 15 years:
ReplyDeleteMen- Plushenko, Yagudin, Chan, Takahashi, Lambiel
Ladies- Kwan, Asada, Kim, Slutskaya, Arakawa
Pairs- Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze, Totmianina-Marinin, Volosozhar-Trankov, Shen & Zhao, Savchenko-Szolkowy
Ice dance- David & White, Virtue & Moir, Anissina-Peizerat, Navka-Kostomarov, Denkova-Staviyski
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Btw, these are in no particular order...
Pairs:
Shen/Zhao
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze
Sale/Pelletier
Savchenko/Szolkowy
Volosozhar/Trankov
Dance:
Virtue/Moir
Davis/White
Anissina/Peizerat
Denkova/Staviski
Bourne/Kraatz
One might question me leaving N/K off this list, but they were one of the most boring Olympic champion teams ever and I think D/S and B/K were better overall. I wish there was another spot so I could include D/V.
Men:
Plushenko
Yagudin
Hanyu
Chan
Takahashi
Ladies:
Kim
Asada
Slutskaya
Kwan
Kostner.. almost said Arakawa, but went with CK in the end.***
Wow! So you say? lol! Poor Bourne and Kraatz just never caught a break! They weren't highly regarded and only challenged for bronze most of the time! On one occasion, they were about to win a World bronze and on a lift at the end of the performance, were unbalanced and crashed to the ice! Totally unforgettable! - Funny to see Kwan below Asada and Slutskaya! I think Plushenko had the better career, but even I have to admit Yagudin was the complete package and wiped out Evgeny in better times out there! His animus towards his rival ate him up, so it's all on him!
***I had forgotten 2000 NHK though, thanks for reminding me. Butyrskaya bombed the qualifying round at the '01 Worlds so no chance of a clean competition, and doubling the 2nd triple lutz is a major mistake in those days of ladies skating as well.***
If I remember NHK for that year, Maria skated the best she possibly could; even clicking on 2 3-Lutzes! Peter C. actually thought she had won! Of course the judging had already been decided and she wound up with Silver behind Irina! To myself I said, "cry me a river!" She had been gifted a couple Gold medals in other GP events; esp. in Paris where Jenny Kirk was underscored being a newbie from the US!
***Jenny Kirk didn't even finish 2nd to Maria at that event though. She was 3rd behind Volchkova who also had mistakes. Int'l judges were never that impressed with Jenny. She skated too small for their liking I guess. - Too small and her jumping technique was strange, although her LP in Paris was very impressive for such a young skater!***
What bothered me just as much about her getting only a bronze, the program ended with a 3-lutz! Who does that to a little girl? The coach and her mom should be dissected and eviscerated! It was bad enough she was skating an adult program, but to finish like that had to be stressful to her little body!
***Maybe she wondered the same thing since a little over a year later the Scotvolds were gone.***
***The '04 Worlds, '06 Olympics, '06 Worlds were all there for the taking for Sasha, but she faltered badly and took silver each time. The '02 Olympics, '02 Worlds, '03 Worlds, gold not certain, but a medal was for sure there for the taking, and she might have had a chance at gold who knows, but she blew all those as well, finishing 4th in each when she should have at least been on the podium in all of them skating decently.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand I feel sorry for Sasha at times since it seems all the focus is on her wasted potential and not living up to the U.S hype which might have been overly ambitious at times anyway, and not on the great things she did achieve- an Olympic medal, many World medals, many GP wins. It seems she is treated like a failure where most w/ similar credentials would be raved as a huge success. Someone like Suguri is probably way happier w/ her career than Sasha, even though she achieved significantly less. Butyrskaya achieved about similar (Maria got the World title, Sasha got the Olympic medal that Maria failed to manage), and is also viewed as a great success story in sharp contrast to the relative failure / dissapointment Sasha is. I don't think she achieved her potential, but she wasn't a total failure or waste either.***
Sasha should still be set with an Olympic silver medal! Heaven knows Liz Manley was awful, got fat, and was still skating in shows and tv events! Sasha may have underachieved, but she's still the most graceful skater on the ice since Fleming and Lynn; a true ballerina out there!
***...Anyway, for Kostner, earning a medal in that field (where she was practically tied with Kim and Sotnikova after the SP) was a huge pressure cooker for her. Winning a medal was not guaranteed nor was her skating well, so even though she was only at best a medal favorite, she still did not have any room for error and knew it was all in her hands.***
She played it very conservatively; really pulling back on the jumps I'm accustomed to see her doing! I just wonder how she earned Bronze with such a watered down program? I'm happy enough for her, but I still question the result; esp. at the top! Kim is no fave of mines, but she didn't appear to make any mistakes, and still lost by a lot!
***Kostner's Technical Element Score was less than a point lower than Yuna Kim's and Gracie Gold and more than 2 pts higher than Lipnitskaya. Combine that with her PCS which was more than 5 points higher than Gold's and more than 3 points higher than Lipniskaya, that's the way the math added up. Plus, don't forget that SP where Kostner blew all of the other bronze medal spoilers out of the water (and was in a virtual tie with Kim and Sotnikova).***
***Sasha would have won Nat'ls in '03, '04, & '05 if she skated clean. In '03 she made too many mistakes to even beat Sarah who was a shadow of the skater she was the year before. Going into the competition she was the new GPF champion and dominated her GP events. She was totally the favorite entering that competition. In '04 she received a 6.0 for a program w/ a fall and another small error, before Michelle skated.
ReplyDelete---
If they were willing to give her the '03 title over Michelle, they would have put her over a very subpar Sarah even w/ her falls and mistakes. Add to that the '03 Worlds qualifying round where Sasha skated clean with 7 triples, Michelle had only 6 and stumbled, and Michelle was 1st and Sasha 3rd in their pool. Those 2 things combined make it clear the judges would not favor a perfect Sasha over a good Michelle in '03. Sasha had a better shot of the 2000 title than the '03 one.
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Well, that's already good to be a good 2nd tie kind of skater. My problem w/ Sasha is that I can't forget her flaws when I watch her. Fumie is more of an all around skater, nothing spectacular, but nothing particularly shocking.
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What would Olympic podiums from '92-2014 been if everyone skated cleanly? Ladies 2002 Gold- Slutskaya, Silver- Kwan, Bronze- Cohen. Too much is made about Kwan's SP win. I thought Irina's SP in SLC was only about 60% as good as her shorts at the GPF, Worlds, Goodwill Games, and she had 2 obvious errors for me- ...She still lost the short by only .1 and would have easily won it with any of her much better shorts that season. Kwan's triple flip btw was NOT 2-footed, definitely not.
Ladies 2006 Gold- Slutskaya, Silver- Shiz, Bronze- Cohen Slutskaya was the sentimental fave in her last Olympics and in Europe. She was never losing if she skated clean (by clean I mean w/o the really shaky landings she had on a few jumps and missed levels, besides the obvious mistakes) even if Shizuka and Cohen were sublime. Shizuka's 3-3s would carry her past Cohen and even if they didn't her jump GOE would do the trick.
Men 2010 Gold- Lambiel, Takahashi, or Abbott, Silver- Lambiel, Takahashi, Abbott, or Chan, Bronze- Lambiel, Takahashi, Abbott, Chan, or Joubert. As you can see not really sure how this would go. Neither Lysacek or Plushenko would even medal though.
Men 2014 Gold- Hanyu, Silver- Fernandez, Bronze- Chan
Ladies '94 Gold- Baiul or Sato, Silver- Baiul, Sato, Kerrigan, or Bonaly, Bronze- Baiul, Sato, Kerrigan, Bonaly, or Chouinard. Another 1 I'm not sure of. Dont think Chen would have ever medaled w/ the others skating cleanly though since the judges always underrated her then.
Ladies '98 Gold- Lipinski, Silver- Kwan, Bronze- Butyrskaya
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Ladies:
1992- Kristi wins, Midori 2nd, Tonya 3rd
1994- Yuka wins, Lu 2nd, Surya 3rd
1998- Tara wins, Michelle 2nd, Maria 3rd
2002- Irina wins, Michelle 2nd, Maria 3rd
2006- Irina wins, Shizuka 2nd, Sasha 3rd
2010- Yu Na wins, Mao 2nd, Joannie 3rd
2014- Adelina wins, Yu Na 2nd, Mao or Julia 3rd
Those are the placements if everyone skates perfectly.
1992- Victor wins, Kurt 2nd, Petr 3rd
1994- Viktor wins, Kurt 2nd, Scott 3rd
1998- Ilia wins, Todd 2nd, Alexei 3rd
2002- Evgeny wins, Alexei 2nd, Tim 3rd
2006- Evgeny wins, Stephane 2nd, Jeff 3rd
2010- Brian wins, Stephane 2nd, Daisuke 3rd
2014- Hanyu wins, Fernandez 2nd, Patrick 3rd
Again with everyone perfect these are placements and medals.***
***Why Have a Short Program At All? Under the current competition format, it is unclear to me why we need to have a SP in addition to a free skate. Sure, the short program rules mandate skaters to perform certain jumps, and for senior/junior men and junior ladies they are now required to perform triple jumps in the SP, b/c fewer rotations will result in no credit. However, the types of technical elements required in the SP are no different from those "recommended" for a "well-balanced" free skate. Who's going to leave out anything from the "well-balanced" element list unless they absolutely cannot do it? Free skate is not really free, and the short programs simply have fewer jumps and fewer spins.I think it makes no sense that we get two programs that are very very similar and measure almost exactly the same thing (the only difference they really measure is stamina). Nowadays the SP is just half of a free skate.***
ReplyDeleteThey've already gotten rid of compulsory figures; now you want to eliminate the SP! So I guess you wouldn't mind some slug having the skate of their life on that one night and taking a major event? I think they should go as far as the old format of the GP Final with 3 performance; 1 SP and 2 LP! That weeds out the riff raff and makes sure the best skater wins!
***Which two skaters fan base have the most heated rivalry? Seeing all the sparring wars btw the various fan bases makes me wonder which 2 fan bases have the most intense rivalry. Certainly there are many candidates for that.***
I went w/ Plushenko & Yagudin, but since I just started posting here, I'm just going by the visceral antagonism that went on when both were competing! I place more blame on Alexei since he wanted Mishin to himself which wasn't practical! He had tons of other students; he just wanted Evgeny gone more than anything! His animus hurt his career along w/ the pressure Plushenko put on him physically and mentally due to his quad being superior; doing 2 in each program! Alexei could beat everyone else w/o even 1, but w/ Evgeny around, he couldn't win the major events! It took its toll which is why he had to retire from the amateur ranks after the 2001-02 season! To this day, he probably can't stand Plushenko!
***ITA, it seems that even Plushenko's much longer career still not enough to ease his fans' mind. No matter how much shit you shed on this board, you can't change the fact that Yagudin's early retirement was b/c of his congenital joint defect. And you can't change the fact that Plushenko couldn't out jump Yagudin, even though he was younger, was trained by Alexei Mishin, and worked much more on jumps. While Yagudin was coached by Tarasova, wasn't ambitious about jumps, has a congenital joint defect, he still out jumped Plushenko easily. Out jump Yagudin and you win. LOL!***
Even if Yagudin is thought of as the better skater, I'll take Plushenko's longevity w/ 4 Olympics medals; 2 Gold, 2 Silver! We'll see who's more highly regarded after time goes by! Numbers will sooth Plushenko's historic achievement!
***2 Gold LOL, then why don't you wait a little bit longer? ...Right now people are still remembering how they win their titles; how's their programs? LOL***
***Top 5 from the past 50 years:
ReplyDeleteDenise Biellmann
Carolina Kostner
Gabby Seyfert
Irina Slutskaya
Katarina Witt ***
I know it's just your opinion, but to totally dismiss a 5 time champion shows a little...what should I say? I'll leave it alone! If Surya isn't on the list, something's wrong with you!
***Well all those skaters won World titles. All except Biellmann won Olympic medals, and Biellmann won the LP at the Olympics. As I am sure you know, Bonaly never won either a World title or Olympic medal.***
Well we all know judging is subjective and she was hosed more often than not; regardless if you cared for her skating or not! I have more regard for her career than most since I've seen too many injustices to count of other skaters to ignore!
***Yu Na and Mao hate each other. They make ugly faces at each other all the time as shown on Youtube videos. Irina and Michelle were more friendly, but their fans are even worse than Yu Na and Mao fans, esp. Michelle fans.
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A simple poke around google images will find several photos of Yuna and Mao smiling and taking pictures together at off-ice events. They have never been anything but respectful of each other as worthy adversaries.***
When it came to "high emotions," I can only come up w/ 2 couples; Lysacek/Weir and Plushenko/Yagudin! There was a lot of animus between those 2 twins of powers! lol!
***...Some portray Weir as this great talent (exaggerated IMO) and Lysacek as just this hard working overachiever. Yet Evan has the far better career and often crushed Weir even when he was working hard too and skating his best in competition. In actuality I think the 2 are probably about the same level in talent, just like Plushenko and Yagudin are, but a much lower base and level of talent than Yags and Plushy is all.
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By the summer of '94, there was already serious backlash against Oksana Baiul -- chronically two-footed jumps, choreography that featured excessive standing in place, weak combo jumps, no sit spins, etc. The ISU was using her Olympic-winning free skate as the defining example of poor choreography in instructional seminars to judges, and later put out an instructional video that ripped the program to shreds. Had Baiul continued, I expect she would've been put under a microscope and "torn down," much the way Sarah Hughes was.Plus, Baiul was erratic at best. It's nothing short of a miracle that her 2 good competitions were a World Championships and an Olympics. Two good competitions in her entire career. There's no track record of sustained performance at any level. She's more like Naomi Nari Nam than she is Sarah Hughes or Tara Lipinski in that regard.***
She had a great performance going on at 2000 GWG's, but messed it up due to her ego! She actually had a perfect triple lutz that made Nancy Kerrigan's jaw drop! She was doing well, but doubled her salchow! At the end of the performance, she retried it with no speed and fell; IDIOT! That put her back under Kerrigan and above Dorothy Hamill in her score when she had it w/ her other triples!
***...Wouldn't the total quads of the 3 medalist be 18; 2 each in the SP & 4 each in the LP? There were quads attempted @ '07, '08, & '09 so I'm not sure how the medalists themselves landed 18 more when their total is 18...***
ReplyDeleteMen's skating has come a long way in such a short X! Seems like it was only yesterday Bronze Medal winner Timothy Goebel put 3 quads in his LP in '02! These guys today are blowing him & the early KING of quads Elvis Stojko off the map! I only saw Plushenko attempt the 4Lutz once @ GP of Russia! A US skater actually completed it sev. yrs ago IIRC; sans Michael Weiss' 2-footed attempts! Now it's almost routine; seeing the + of 4FLip & 4Loop! What's happened to the ladies? They had a couple attempting the 3 Axle & 4 Salchow, but lit'l of that going on now since Asada retired! The arm over the head by Medvedeva m/b tough, but after a while gets "old!"
***Looks like Hanyu has found the formula to peak @ Worlds; skate just okay for the 1st part of the yr, then rev it up by the X of 4CC & Worlds.***
I was afraid the same would happen to our own Nathan Chen after brilliant performances w/ X Quads @ the 2 preceding events; US Nat'ls & The 4 CC! Expectations had t/b huge & having problems w/ the skates is predictable! I'm surprised there aren't more occasions of skaters being hindered since those boots & blades take so much punishment in comparison to past gens where it was a big deal to complete = 1 Quad! The torque involved in getting up there into the air then the subsequent landings take a toll on equipment & body I'm sure!
***Another 3A in practice by Mirai Nagasu.***
OMG, early success just does lit'l to nothing for some skaters it seems! I remember when she won Nat'ls, but was too young to go for Worlds to compete for medal like Kimmie Meissner in '06! When Mirai won in '08, Kimmie wouldn't have = qualified for Worlds falling to 7th @ Nat'ls IIRC! 3 of the top 7 skaters were too young! What happened to all those girls?
***In '08 Meissner got named b/c Katrina Hacker was a "nobody" in the minds of USFS compared to her w/ no Senior Int'l medals. And what happened to those girls? Growth spurts, being taught lousy jump technique to just get the triples around & then getting hammered when the IJS took over. In the case of Flatt, simply just not being a great package. - And Ash Wagner (her 1st Sr. ap. too) went to Jr. Worlds b/c of her age. She had a good Sr. outing @ Nat'ls too.
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It's kind of crazy how the U.S. dominated the Jr. scene during that period, but it couldn't translate that same dominance as seniors. However, those Jrs. that did dominate weren't so bad in gen. w/ the entire U.S. sweep from '07 Jr. Worlds still competing to this very day.
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I think it says more about US Ladies TBH. The fact that Ashley & Mirai will in days be 26 & 24 & still be 2 of the top contenders for the Olympic team says it all. At least Ashley has improved her skating over the last 5 yrs, but if Mirai were skating for Japan or Russia w/ how her skating stagnated post '10, she would prob. be buried like Leonova or retired by now. There just have been no real talented girls that have come up since Sochi to challenge the older ladies like Mirai who quite frankly hasn't exactly set the world on fire. = someone like Mariah Bell is almost the same age as Gracie.***
There were a few I really liked and seemed t/b as talented as any; Naomi Nar Nam, Bea Liang, & "The Pearl" (Carolina Zhang)! The Pearl obvious had a horrible growth spurt, but the others probably just beat their bodies to HELL much too early in their development! What happened to that rule about jrs not = attempting all those triples? Silly how we seem to beat our skaters into the USA ice while Japan has reserves in the wings!
***Naturally, someone mentions Tonya Harding.***
ReplyDeleteIf not for Tonya drama, I wouldn't have gotten back into figure skating in '94! The 80's were nauseating to me! It was all about Witt for the ladies, then Brian B.'a & Scott Ham.. for the men; am. & pro ranks! Hamilton could leave blood on the ice & the judges would still give him perfect 10 scores! ...The 90's were the best & Tonya should get a lot of credit bringing back the popularity & $$ for the sport which was near DEAD! Got to see prime of Bonaly & saw ascension of ATG's like Kwan, Slutskaya, Plushenko, & Yagudin! It fell off for a while, but I've been very impressed w/ the new gen. of Hanyu, Uno, & Chen!
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What's Your Fave Performance or Program Ever? I keep watching Hanyu's LP of this past season where he finally skated it perfectly @ World FS Chps.! I'm gonna have to put it right up there as #1 "all X" IMB b/c of the quality of skating, the music, & gen. emotion gen. by the performance! Yagudin was no fave of mines w/ his behavior towards Plushenko & his subsequent split from Mishon, his '02 Olympic programs were by far the best @ the X; SP "Winter" & LP "Man In The Iron Mask!" I also give an hon. mention to his '01 Worlds SP of Chopin's, "Revolution Etude!" Loved Irina Slutskaya's SP, "Serenade!"
***When I saw Hanyu's performance on YouTube, I was so surprised b/c the audience reaction seems mild on the video compared to what it was like in the arena. I mean my dad was there w/ me & the poor guy had his fingers in his ears 20 secs into the program b/c it was absolutely deafening. (I personally don't "get" Hanyu so I didn't "feel" the feeling, but for his fans it mhb an absolute delight, like a dream come true.***
Hanyu had 1 of the best performances I've ever seen in Helsinki w/ him taking off & landing on the ice w/ so much precision! It was very impressive; esp. giving us 5 Quads! Wasn't it just a few yrs ago when Tim Goebel set all kinds of records w/ 3? Now they're routinely doing Quad Lutz & Loops! Amazing! It seemed like we were going in the opp. direction for a while, putting more in the character & theme of a performance! Nowadays, these skaters truly have it all when we had only smatterings of genius in Yagudin, Plushenko, Lysacek, & Lambiel! The men's ranks have been slim to thin for a while! This is about as comp. as I can remember = w/ the likes of Stojko, Eldridge, Urmanov, Kulik, & Browning around @ the same X!
***I was never a fan of Kwan's skating, but ...That said, why would anyone want to hash out their divorce in public?***
I knew whenever it happened, her marriage wouldn't hold up no matter who it was! I can see her as a real control freak seeing as she's called the shots since she as 12! I was never a fan of her persona or skating & thought she hindered the progress of the next gen. by overstaying her welcome! Irina Slutskaya had legitimately supplanted her in the world IMO & we had Sasha, Naomi, & so many other good skaters that had t/b intimidated, demurred to her legend! Kwan was the type of skater who was over-marked too many X's to count! Near the end, the love turned & Irina started getting the marks! At the GPF 1 yr, I'm pretty sure Irina only completed 3 triples & MK had @ least 5! Loved seeing the shoulder shrugs of the American contingent while commiserating w/ Kwan! How many X's did others have to do the same when Michelle skated away w/ a medal undeserved?
***...Not as many men, for instance, are flutzers. I think this has more to do w/ strength than good tech.***
ReplyDeleteThe LUTZ is just hard for women; no matter how skilled! To this day, the only skater I can think of who really scratches that outside edge every X was Butyskaya! She really exaggerated it so no 1 could accuse her of flutzing; = though 1 of the ugliest executions upon landing!
***Sasha is the #1 reason why I grew to love skating as much as I did/do. ...She was a >er spinner & had >er flexibility. Everything was just lovely. I still miss her dearly & the attention to detail that she put into every movement.***
I've written in detail how much I think Cohen's career whb diff. if Kwan had retired in a X-ly fashion! Her hanging on like an old vulture stifled many of the ladies IMO! We had quite a few that were great talents & had wonderful potential like Naomi Nari Nam! I could watch Nam & Cohen all day long; the grace, & "attention to detail" were always evident in their skating! But to beat the Queen, you have to push yourself & their lit'l bodies couldn't take it; esp. Naomi's! The same thing's going on in tennis w/ Fedal extending their careers longer than expected! It changes the whole dynamics of the tour by them = walking around w/ other players in awe of them breathing air! No matter how good you are, if your mindset & confidence aren't there you'll still fail!
***...If Michelle c/d all these 3-3 combos in practice, why did she only - barely - manage a 3T+3T in comp? Sasha = managed a 3Lz+3T (albeit a flutz, which MK borderline had also, btw)...***
I always thought Kwan was terribly overrated by assuming her success meant she had t/b a great jumper! You can count the occasions on 1 hand when she went outside her comfort zone! During her convalescent period waiting for a leg fracture to heal during the '97-98 season, she avoided that simple 3T/3T combo in deference to an added 3 Lp w/ a step out 2T! I still SMH over the awe people had in MK skating when there were so many more daring & charismatic skaters out there! My fave was Surya Bonaly, followed by Slutskaya who beat MK like a drum those last sev. yrs! I didn't think anyone could outdo the balletic style of Oksana Baiul until Cohen came along! When she was maybe 14, she was added to 1 of those exh./comp. held here in the States! She was supposedly injured so was limited to 3 T & 3 S, but she didn't need the jumps! Her stroking around the ice was reminiscent of Peggy Fleming in those waning yrs trying to utilize the old lady to the last! PF was limited to a single axel by then, but true skaters don't need to leave the ice! Cohen's a lot like that; her "falling leaf," splits jumps that seem to go >er than most since she's just a lit'l pixie, & then those spins that Michelle can only DREAM of performing! I miss her!
***Who has the best 2-Axel?***
When I think of 2-Axels, I imagine Bonaly performing them from a standing position while others need to stroke around the ice in a fig. 8 before stepping up into it! I had stopped watching FS for a few yrs, nauseated w/ the top skaters & the constant fawning of Witt, Boitano, & Hamilton! Robin Cousins was my last fave back in that era! The Kerrigan/Harding drama brought me back in '94 & I was instantly taken by Surya; the effortlessness of that jump & others! That season, she skated to Vivaldi's "4 Seasons" & @ the start of the program she just does a 2-Axel w/ no real prep; someX's 2 & goes about the rest of her program! It remained simple for her to execute while others need to build all kinds of momentum going into the jump! I think the reason it was easy is she trained t/d a triple, but never performed it in her live program! It was the same reason Sasha Cohen "over-rotated" some of her jumps; she practiced quads!
***...When did Sasha Cohen land this in comp.? I remember her falling on an under-rotated 3Lz+3T in SLC, but don't recall her landing 1 clean in comp.***
ReplyDeleteI never missed a performance & probably have it on VHS tape somewhere in storage, but Sasha did complete that combo @ least once ('03 WC)! = Michelle went outside her comfort zone a lit'l w/ a 3Ltz/2Lp combo, maybe attempted 3Lp @ the end to squeak it out! She was trying to overcome the genuine affection the judges & fans had for Irina Slutskaya who had gone thru so much in life! She survived horrible conditions in Russia over her career, saving to pay for operation on her mom, & barely recovered herself from that heart ailment w/ fluid on her heart! MK's been stroked since birth & is probably a DIVA; runs the whole show!
***...I never enjoyed Irina's skating much so automatically as a Sasha uber I'm gonna go w/ Sasha despite her many flaws. Far more enjoyable to watch, = when she fell. Irina always looked so, so sloppy & hunched over for me, despite her oodles of charisma.***
I just loved that Irina kept MK's record in check! Michelle would have won so much more w/o the judge's fave "rosy cheek" I.S. in the comp.! Her jumping was just enough to overtake the style & grace of MK it seemed! It's probably why I liked Surya so much! Sasha's stroking around the ice is still more entertaining than any of these skaters! It was a real shame simple errors kept her from medaling more!
***I think Hanyu's Chopin SP is excellent & it has the world record. I wouldn't mind if he went back to his LP from '16 either. I was floored by it @ '17 Worlds & that wasn't = my fave program of his. He's freaking awesome. It's going t/b a difficult season for all of the top men, but I'd love to see Yuzuru as a 2X Olympic champ @ the end of it all. I think he's w/o ?? the best men's skater. He just has to hit to his potential.***
I wouldn't mind if Hanyu stayed w/ the current programs t/b a 2X Olympic champ w/ them as signature pieces that w/b looked back on w/ such adulation! Supposedly you couldn't hear the last min. of his music the applause was so sustained @ Worlds last March! It really was a flaw< performance seeing as the air has been known t/b quite thin since '99 Worlds were held there! Yagudin squeaked by a surging Plushenko back then who had kept his LP from the prev. season! I loved that New Age music from Jarre!
***As someone who was there in Helsinki that night, the applause was thunderous. I remember clapping like crazy after he landed the Lutz & continuing to clap well after he finished his program. It was absolutely incredible. Whatever he decides to do if he can create another performance of that caliber & win gold I'll take it.***
***...The Lutz is hard for me b/c that edge change can come so late. Often there's ft-wk into the flip which helps.***
ReplyDeleteI instantly thought of '95 Euros where Bonaly was performing! She came around the ice 1/2-way thru the program & was doing some ft-work, speeding up & it was like "is she going to do a LUTZ?" She did!
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So Nathan Succeeds from "The King of Quads," Tim Goebel to being the "Lord of Quads?" I forgot about the boot sit. @ Worlds! I just thought he peaked too soon winning Nat'ls, then "4 Cont." going away after a great SP!
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...The ladies have regressed from what lit'l I've seen of them! You used to get a quad outta one of the ladies, now the triple axel seems t/b lost w/ Asada!
***Since when have the ladies been reg. doing quads? I must have missed that era.***
You had sev. female skaters who @ least practiced it & threw it into program if they felt they needed it! From Surya to Sasha to Miki Ondo; quads were @ least talked about in the ladies' event they skated!
***You literally named the only 3 skaters who have attempted quad jumps in the women's div., Sasha lit. only once in comp., Surya 4 or 5 X's in the early '90s, & Miki's were 15-20 yrs later. That's like saying the 80s was the era of men's quads b/c 3 people were attempting them. ...
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Right, = when Surya, Miki, & Sasha spoke about quads, nobody really took that to mean the ladies all of a sudden were going to have a quad revolution, esp. w/ how quickly those 3 skaters abandoned any further quad attempts after their initial tries. +, Sasha was never close to landing one in comp. like the 1 X she tried it & I don't think people believed she really had one.
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Yes! Eldredge's toe-loops often looked like Salchows to me. It was the really late change of foot w/ instant pick-in that made them feel like Salchows.***
It was one hideous attempt; probably only completed once! The others had him crashing to the ice; including '98 Nat'ls qualif. for the Olympics! I was personally "all-in" w/ Michael Weiss & his quad Lutz attempt, but he barely 2-footed it! ...Eldridge could have spattered his brains all over the ice & in back of the ambulance be proclaimed "the winner!" Nat'ls are shady all over the world, but the USA takes it to new heights w/ drama & intrigue going on when it comes to forming a World Team!
***Not a major podium per se, but Sarah did beat Michelle & Irina to win '01 Skate Canada. That turned out t/b the exact same podium for SLC. Of all her major competitors (Lulu, Tara, Maria, Irina & Sasha), I just have to respect Irina the most. Say all you want about her style & judging bias, but she was most resilient & was w/ Michelle @ or near the top for the longest ('96 - '05) despite breaks during that period. Lulu was wonderful, but she & Michelle only really went H2H in '95 & '96, Tara only '97 & '98, Maria only '99 & '00, Sasha only '02 - '05; she only started beating Michelle when she became injured circa '04.***
I loved the dom./fav. that went to Irina = though I'm American! There was just something about MK that was so "self-entitled;" needing t/b taken down a peg! Irina had her # there for a few yrs from '00 doing 3/3's & "judge satisfying" routines that brought the crowds to their feet! I stayed up all night to catch '01 GWG's in Austr.! Since it was an Olympic yr w/ '02 SLC soon, the skaters featured their new "SP's!" I loved Irina's, "Serenade!"
Watching Canadian GP & it was over in the 1st jumping pass for Chan as he had one of the worst performances I can remember! Not sure he'll = make the podium w/o a lot of "home-cooking" to save him!
ReplyDelete***Am I the only one wondering if he'll compete the whole season? Not only was the program poor, Patrick doesn't seem like his heart is in it. Granted he was saying he was tired & probably just nervous in gen. in the Kiss & Cry. I wish him the best, but that was tough to watch.
---
Listening to everything Patrick said this wk makes me believe he has mentally checked out. He's an intelligent guy & knowing you're coming into a gun fight w/ a proverbial knife will do nothing for your confidence. I really enjoyed his SP & his skating skills are so ahead of everybody else but he just can't put up enough pts w/o those quads. I often wonder how much of him remaining in comp. has more to do w/ SC forcing his hand. He just doesn't seem like he wants to compete anymore.***
I'm no fan, but I can give him a lit'l cover by saying he's no spring chicken! The expectations & demands of skating NOW is @ a much >er level than his prime skating yrs! He's well past it @ 26, being asked to put X quads in his LP's! It's just not very realistic; on par w/ Plushenko coming back one more X trying to push it to qualify! This reminds me of Eldridge qualifying for the '02 Olympics knowing where the sport was headed w/ the quad, but he still went out there; wound up barely in the top 10! I'm not saying Chan's a creaky old vet, but people's expectations need to pull back! He's going t/b lucky snatching bronze on the GP! The content just isn't there tech. & his artistic stroking around the ice isn't going to make up for that!
***I beg to differ. I don't feel Todd was gifted @ all @ US Nat'ls. I was stunned by the tie in the SP, but I felt Todd deserved his 6th US title over all (artistry, presentation). Don't get me wrong, Timmy was fantastic @ the Olympics, & totally deserved his Olympic Bronze Medal, + his subsequent World silver medals.
If you want to talk about travesty in judging, I'll say Todd deserved no < than silver @ 2001 Worlds. W/ all due respect to Alexei (who totally deserved his Olympic Gold Medal in SLC), he skated a very flawed free skate in Vancouver Worlds. I realize that he was injured & couldn't perform to the best of his ability @ those Worlds. I don't blame Alexei for the result there, I blame the judges, esp. the 3 who had the nerve to place Todd 3rd after his "1492" free skate.
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I think there's more going on w/ Chan than him just hoping to coast to the Olys w/ minimal effort. - I feel horrible for Patrick. I hope he can find his groove & regroup (also hoping there's no injury). It was still a beautiful program to watch = w/ all of the jumping error.
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I was there @ CoR & I did not remember a clean 4Lo from Nathan in practice. M/b it's not that good for his hip & he should take it out. Of course, I'm not Nathan himself or his doctor. But if he does not do 4Lo anymore, I can see why.***
These guys are going t/b in wheelchairs before 30 if they don't pull back some! We saw what happened to Yagudin, but of course he had a congenital problem already! He was only putting in 2 4T's compared to today's skaters adding all the quads into their programs! I know it's more entertaining w/ all the quads, but I don't need them personally! A great program c/b just as enjoyable to watch w/ no jumps if done right & the skater puts in the effort to make it so!
***Well if they think their bodies can handle all these quads, it's their choices. I'm worried for their bodies, but it's not my calls. It's their choices (and maybe their coaches too).***
***...This is reminiscent of Kwan not wanting to do anything but Skate America, but then she accidentally qualified for the GPF anyway.***
ReplyDeleteI never knew Kwan had an aversion to going abroad! As far as I can remember she skated both SA & SC & qualified for the final @ least a 1/2 dozen X's; going down to Slutskaya! It was a tougher event back then w/ 3 programs performed; 1 SP & 2 LP's! The skaters usually used the previous season's program due to that extra performance needed to win the gold! This was my fave event for that reason! I guess the skaters thought it was stupid & they finally dropped a LP!
***Ladies & gentlemen, presenting the 1 & only person who misses the 2 LP GP "super final" format. - It was incredibly stupid. We usually saw repeat LP's that skaters had the season or 2 before, & it was clear it had barely been trained (excep. Kwan's "Miraculous Mandarin" & Slutskaya's "Don Quixote" actually being debuted @ the event). At one pt, the event schedule was also SP & LP1 both in 1 day, w/ about 6 hrs inbtwn IIRC. And the 'Super Final' where it was 1 vs 2 & 3 vs 4 - skaters were limited to only those positions = if the skater in 4th place going in happened to have the best skate that night. Def. 1 of the worst ISU ideas ever.***
Well I usually liked the programs from the prev. season of the top skaters! Come on; we're talking an extra 4-5 min. on the ice! Figure skaters are accustomed to being abused; esp. @ the Olympics where it's 1 "command performance" after another! They were actually traveling over the diff. islands in Japan when the event was set in Nagano in '98! It seemed like every X I surfed, the skaters were performing again; not repeats of the telecast! Have we forgotten "Qfying?" At Worlds that performance can determine if you = skate in the event! Exhbs. c/b just as stressful if not more b/c they're holding back on the "tech" to stay upright, but accidents will happen = on the simplest of elements! An extra LP shouldn't be that big a deal!
***The diff. @ the Olympics is that the skaters usually have a day inbtwn their events. This switched w/ Sochi IIRC, but in the past, there had (almost) always been a day inbtwn the SP & LP's. ...A LOT of the performances in the LP1 & LP2 were way below any decent standard. OTOH, it did create the battle btw Yagudin & Plushenko b4 the '02 Olymp. & that was 1 of the most exciting & intense free skate broadcasts I've ever seen. But it was bad > than it was good.***
I remember that! Malinina along w/ other skaters tended t/b undermarked @ X's! Tech. she surpassed Kwan, but they just couldn't give it to her! Fig. skating w/b an absolute criminal enterprise until the human element is elim.! I thought shady scoring would stop w/ this new system, but it's still as corrupt! I was looking forward to Evgeny cleaning up that "Circ" performance @ the Olympics, but he switched to Carmen which is 1 of my least fave since so many people have done it in all the skating disciplines! Mishon gave Carmen to Yagudin yrs. ago taking World Bronze medal in '97 IIRC!
***JW mentioned that Rippon was going for a 3F+3L. Is that true? I've never seen that jump combo from him. He could theoretically do a 3F+3L & then do a 2A in place of the solo 3L, increasing his BV from a 2L to a 2A overall. Alternately, he has a fine lutz. Why not repeat the 3Z instead of the 3F & gain an extra pt or so?***
Watching vid on YouTube Rippon stayed w/i himself & I'm proud enough for him that he got thru the program unscathed! There were some shaky landings, but he stayed on his feet & I'll probably save the performance when it repeats later! Bravo!
Just checked & found 2 WD's at GP Final, so alternates are being called up: Jason Brown gets to replace Jin Boyang of China & Satoko Miyahara of Japan fills spot left open by Evgenia Medvedeva! Shocking! In an Olympic season, you see top skaters skipping events whether injured or not so it's not unexpected!
ReplyDelete***They don't usually skip the GPF unless injured, like the 4 skaters I mentioned. Evegenia has a serious injury.***
Well if it was that serious, why didn't Evgenia WD a lot sooner & just appoint the alternate days or wks ago?
***She wanted to compete, but finally made the right decision. Wks ago she didn't realize what it would mean to aggravate the injury & miss the Olympics.***
I'm just thinking about the alternate! If they don't know t/b prepared, they "don't" & end up looking like they shouldn't be on ice! The only one I know that performed well @ the last moment was Plushenko over 10 yrs ago! He had only competed @ the COR for the home fans & hadn't even thought about going to the GP Final, but someone WD! Evgeny not only showed up, he won it! Now that's greatness!
***...the alt. had plenty of warning. And Satoko is from Japan so it wasn't even hard travel for her.***
Ok; I've only been a casual observer the past few yrs! Haven't been a huge fan since the days of Plushenko & Cohen! Hanyu & Chen have sorta brought me back, but him being hurt the last few yrs allowed less than complete skaters like Fernandez to take a couple Worlds & other titles they shouldn't have had a sniff @ winning!
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Just checked results of Men's SP's & Brown able to jump to #4 after being an alternate! Three of the guys including Chen are around 100 pts which is very impressive!
***Just watched all the men. Not a bad event, considering the circumstances. Nathan & Shoma were good. I had Shoma slightly ahead, though practically tied w/ Nathan (he really needs to work on his spins, esp. the camel position). The jump landings for both of them were very sloppy. ...Seems the fall on the Lutz sucked all the air out of him because he seemed to just be going thru the motions.
Jason, again good. Don't like the program much & seemed to be more restrained than usual.
Voronov, good. Literally no performance or interpretation for the 1st 3/4 of the program. Little transitions.
Adam was good, though like Jason seemed to be more restrained. I don't mind the program (didn't last yr either).***
Well it almost turned into a "splat-fest," but still competitive w/ these Quad Kings! Well the men's event is over in Nagoya, Chen squeaking out a very close victory over Uno to win his 1st "GP of FS" Final! There were a lot of top names missing so all these guys will have to step it up for the Olympics!
***Remember, the '06 Olympics was a huge mess w/ the exception of Plushenko who was clean w/ quads & difficult combos, but people criticized his programs for not having much in it. Sound familiar? Then in '10 2 of the medalists were very clean, but the winner had no quad and was Evan Lysaceck skating a very by-the-#'s program, but seemed inspired anyway & Plushenko taking silver who had some scratchy landings, but landed quads w/ a program that some thought was one of the worse of his career. Daisuke skated well, but had a fall on his 1 quad attempt. Then we had the '14 Olympics where = if one wanted Yuzu to win & were happy w/ his win they didn't want him to win like that. So men winning w/ < than stellar skates isn't too unusual w/ the men who are attempting quads un< your name's Plushenko.***
OMG, just chk'd GPF results & didn't notice before that 5 of the 6 jr. ladies is Russian! They were depleted after Slutskaya left, but now they have more talent than they can handle; same in Japan I guess!
ReplyDelete***Russian ladies have been dom. It's not surprising that 5 out of 6 in the JGPF are Russian. Eteri's skaters swept the podium.***
Out of sight, out of mind! The figure skating started getting hard to find & I wasn't paying for streaming online!
***Fiero425, The Russian Nat'ls w/b very interesting, as usual, except in ice dance.***
Where'd the US get so comp. in Dance; 3 teams @ GPF if IIRC!
***...I'm not a huge fan of the ladies discipline these days. In any case, it w/b fun to see someone other than Med & Zagitova prevail for the OGM.***
Most of the skating is just about unwatchable really! ... the performances suck! The men are doing too many quads & are pretty much just going back & forth across the ice to go for another! The Russian ladies' best have this thing putting their arm(s) above their head! I can't tell you how "UGLY" it looks; esp. Sotskova since her long limbs accentuate the hideousness of her jumping style w/ a bent elbow!
***So true about Sotskova & the bent elbow! I keep thinking she's doing a duck imitation... Singles is not much fun these days, whether men or women.***
Russia goes from not having any women @ the Olympics 24 yrs ago to prognostications of a clean sweep of the podium in Gangneung! How did this happen? They were bereft of talent after Irina retired, now they're flush; men & women! Love Tara's comment on a telecast; "Plushenko will not be attending his 18th Olympics!" ;-)
***Truly amazing. Part of the reason m/b that in the past those w/ the most talent went for pairs or ice dance & we saw how USSR/Russia dominated those disciplines for decades. I think @ some pt the ladies & some men realized that they could earn the medals entirely on their own. Although it seemed like after Irina's retirement there was no one left, there were many young ladies waiting in the wings. Once they became jur age eligible (& later senior) the medals started flowing in. We do see the downturn in pairs & ice dance b/c so much talent has moved to singles skating.***
Russia finally caught up w/ the selfishness of Americans! I still wince thinking of Kristi Yamaguchi who dropped her partner Rudy Galindo w/ so lit'l fanfare! Lucky both have been more successful in singles! How did that go down? I had stopped watching during that period ticked off the results; all about Hamilton & Boitano which was nauseating in the pros & amateur events!
***Kristi made the right though painful decision to focus on singles Because:
1. Her singles coach moved to Canada and her pairs coach died, so she & Rudy started training in S. Cal. w/ Nicks. The distance alone created big problems.
2. In '90 = though they were training in the Bay Area, the stress of competing in 2 disciplines costing Kristi medals in both.
3. Pairs were dominated by Russians like the legendary M&D, G&G & other talented pairs @ that X. It would have taken a miracle for Y&G to beat them & win the gold. Her chances were much >er in singles.
It was sad for Rudy to lose his pairs career. He rebounded eventually & won the US Chp. & a World Bronze as a singles skater. Both of them had a lot of natural talent, so it worked out in the end. For <er skaters I don't think it would have.
About selfishness, skaters are going to do what's best for themselves. They didn't have much control in the USSRut after '91 they list the financial support, but got more freedom to choose.***
*** FS Acronyms:
ReplyDeleteMEEPOTS: Most Epic Ending Pose of the Season
MESS: Most Epic Splat of the Season
MIMOTS: Most Important Minion of the Season
POTS or #TTW-POTS: (Team Trainwreck) Performance of the Season***
I feel so old! It's truly the end when a fave pairs' skater like Artur Dmitriev has a son place 5th @ Russians Nat'ls already! OMG!
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Russian_Figure_Skating_Championships#Men -
***The entire Russian Nat'ls event was just cringeworthy.***
I tried to check out the men's LP & it was truly unwatchable! Is this normal since Plushenko retired? They were >er in official Int'l comps like the GP Finals just a few wks ago! The men were pretty horrible! Hopefully the ladies w/b more entertaining! I do have a problem w/ most of them doing their jumps w/ the arm above the head; so distracting & unattractive IMO!
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...Sasha Cohen was thrown out there too soon along w/ the aura of Michelle Kwan hovering over her & the rest of the next gen.! I think so many careers whb changed if MK had left the ranks in a X-ly fashion!
***When would it have been "X-ly" for Michelle to stop competing? Up until '05 Worlds, she had been on the podium for 9 yrs str. & been Nat'l Champ for 8 yrs str. It seems to me she retired @ the right X.***
Being on the podium was no special feat since the ladies have been lame for quite a while! Irina Slutskaya was = off the ice for a while w/ health issues! It was the same for the men w/ Plushenko owning it; leaving for a while, but still won events upon his return just in X for the Olympics of '14! I personally thought he was a nec. evil, but he still took their lone male spot & broke down after the team event! MK wasn't doing much but taking up a spot from an "up and comer!" Just something personal I feel about it!
***Then the "up and comer" can claim that prized spot by WINNING it & beating MK. It's not your spot un< you surpass the one that is "taking up a spot." There's no spot except the one you claim via your own accomplishments in a comp.***
Tell that to the skaters' families killed in a plane crash that allowed a very young neophyte by the name of Peggy Fleming to accomplish all she did sooner rather than a lot later!
***Yes a tragedy for the US & for the skating community. But what does that have to do w/ MK taking up a spot.***
It's just an example of what "could" or couldn't have happened due to a spot being open or not! Peggy's life was changed due to that tragedy! She whb lucky to skate in the subsequent Olympics & Worlds all due to that plane crash! I think all those skaters waiting in the wings mhh more successful careers if not for MK just hanging on like a vampire, sucking the life out of the fans unnecessarily! She was rich, popular, w/ a resume unmatched! Those last few yrs was her just taking up a spot as far as I was concerned! JMHO due to the history I've noted already!
I was over Kwan when only 15-16 yo w/ all the fawning & slobbering over her! I never cared for her skating & could name 6 others I'd prefer to watch! Like most American skaters, she was the consummate "stick up her ass" type of skater w/ < grace than Sasha @ any stage of their careers! When she struggled, it was painful; esp. when her supporters went overboard w/ excuses! Loved how she was owned by Slutskaya those last few yrs! I still muse about a Masters' event before the Olympic yr. of '02; singling & doubling all her jumps! She couldn't wait & fired Carroll on the spot! "Nice move girl!" She was so exposed! = w/ help from the judges @ SLC, she still lost AGAIN to another skater that wasn't in her league! By '05 Worlds you could see more pics of her picking her ass up off the ice! I asked people to caption them when she was languishing on all 4's! Mines were "I'm too old for this shit" & "I lost a contact around here!" The MK fans were livid while her detractors roared w/ laughter!
ReplyDelete***That spot was not given to MK. She earned it by skating well when it counted. If others wanted that spot, they just had to skate >er than her. It's not her fault that they couldn't seize the opportunity.***
No doubt about it; w/ a lit'l aura & legend behind her! The same goes on in tennis; certain players "own" another one no matter the circumstances! The great Rod Laver's w/o a doubt "The GOAT" IMB since he won 2 CYGS's (AO, Wimbl., FO, & USO); once as an amateur in'62, then again as a pro in '69! He was pretty much done by '74, but was wily enough to continue giving some players heartburn just by showing up; getting all that love from the crowd!
***More under-marking on PCS for Ashley @ Nat'ls. But a team of Bradie, Mirai, & Karen is fine w/ me.***
Under-marking? You can say that after that joke of a decision in '14? Some people are never satisfied I guess! It's Karma Wagner misses the podium by a pt! The self-entitlement continues w/ her and some of her fans I guess!
***Ashley wasn't bad & her LP was >er than Karen's. Rafael could put his foot down & push out someone who finishes above her. I do want Mirai to go b/c I was heartbroken for her in '14. I just hope Rafael doesn't persuade USFSA to screw over Mirai a 2nd X.
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Ashley's “furious” @ her 4th place finish.
- https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/ashley-wagner-furious-after-fourth-place-in-free-skate/ -
"...I am furious & I think deservedly so.”***
Wow, what a spoiled, self-entitled POS! Someone needs a spanking for having such a tantrum! What a brat!
***I'm an Ashley fan too, but I'm not blind to her recent performances & how she did at Nat'ls. There were 3 other people who made fewer mistakes & had more content than she did overall. She did finish 3rd in the LP & did a nice job tonight.***
Thank you! There are rational, honest people around! Bless you!
***I feel so bad for Ashley. Her frustration of having a dream likely die is hard. She's always carried herself professionally & she's a gracious person. Folks are making a huge massive deal out of the "furious" video & using it to finally express their "feelings" about Ashley. ...She was the ONLY bright spot for US ladies for a while, but it looks like the USFSA doesn't give a crap anymore. She'll be fine.***
Mon Dieu, you're talking as if something was taken from her! '14 was mentioned; Mirai had something taken from her in favor of Wagner! She should have nothing to say after that; esp. her delusional fans who agree w/ her!
***Ashley didn't take anything from Mirai, the USFSA gave the spot to Ashley. I didn't say anything to convey something was "taken" from her. That's your reasoning.***
***I wish NBC hadn't further inflamed the haterz & casual fans by not explaining the '14 decision >er. (Ashley had been Nat'l Champ the previous 2 yrs in a row, etc.)***
ReplyDeletePeople in the know are fully aware of that! It was still a crappy thing to do! She wouldn't want it to happen to her, but she gladly took Mirai's place! She can sit & watch this X! Maybe they'll give her a teary lit'l segment tmrw!
***I was really unhappy when Mirai didn't get to go to Sochi & Ashley did. But, I didn't blame Ashley for that. I don't think anyone in her position would have turned it down. ...I also think she knew coming into tonight that the judges were not going t/b kind to her & that mhb tough for her, but she fought. ...I'm finding myself feeling bad for Ashley.***
Besides '14, people forget when Mirai actually won Nat'ls in '08 she wasn't allowed to go to Worlds due to her age, so she's fought harder than anyone to get where she is! She really deserves this!
***They also overlook the fact that Mirai had no coach @ the X. The committee was not going to send a coach-less skater to the Olympics.***
The USFSA's never satisfied for the most part! They weren't happy w/ Mirai who was coach-< & they hated Sasha Cohen for having a Russian Coach; actually forcing her to go American it seems! Their battles w/ Johnny Weir are legendary!
***In a world where "demographics" & ideologies are changing, the USFSA's having a difficult X finding the "ideal" skater that they want as a suitable representative for US Figure Skating. - ...maybe if Ashley didn't spend 3 Olympic Nat'ls putting herself behind the 8 ball in the SP, she w/b a 2 X Olympian; but @ least be a gracious loser.
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...If the others received PCS bumps, then Ashley should have gotten one also. That's what was horrifically embarrassing about the judges. I am deeply, deeply ashamed for them.***
Wow, like Ashley's never been given elevated PCS scores or consideration! It continues t/b a real racket behind the scenes! Figure skating will always be one of the shadiest sports due to judges & FS assoc.!
***WTH?! Why just 2 entries for Japan @ the Olymp.? What am I missing?***
If you look @ Worlds in '17, Japan results bad in the ladies' event with Satoko out injured! Only Mai Mihara was in the top 10; 2 others #11 & 16! The top 2 have t/b under 13! Chen & Wagner were 5 & 7 respectively; hence Wagner being a lit'l bent out of shape! She figures she gave us 3 entries & none of them w/b her!
***Oh Hell. I was sooo past Worlds '17 that I totally forgot that. Damn! What a pity.***
I think the same thing happened to the USA men 10 yrs ago where Johnny Weir was the lone winner of a medal, taking bronze @ '08 Worlds! Abbot & Carriere flaked out of the top 10! The following yr Weir was injured during Nat'ls, but since he skated, he wasn't given any consideration like they did for Wagner in '14! This is one reason I can't stand the USFSA; such hypocrites & politicians behind the scene!
***Well, they all have politics going on behind the door tbh. It just seems that USFSA's a bit messy about it. lol!***
***The whole event ...a letdown from the SP -
ReplyDelete1. Chen - ...I have a sense that he's BACK from those < than stellar SA & GPF performances & a serious threat for a medal in Pyeongchang.
2. Miner - Unbelievable. ...Good for him!
3. Zhou - He gets the award for the combo of the evening: 4Z-3T. ...he's where he needs t/b as teen phenom still adjusting to Snrs.
4. Rippon - I was relaxed watching him until the last 2 jumping passes, then I was like WTF? He was so consistent all season & @ the worst possible moment, he pops 2 relatively simple jumps.
5. Hochstein - ...I think we might see him at 4CCs.
6. Brown - ...after Adam, Jason steps on the ice & does = worse. So much tech. was off. ...***
...Miner surprised everyone! Brown & Rippon did not look sharp; both hitting the ice, singling & doubling jumps! Looks like Adam spoke too soon!
***If Ross doesn’t go I’ll be furious.***
It wouldn't be fair, but Miner isn't known Int'ly & can't really compete vs the "Quad Kings" of the world! It would make sense to replace Miner w/ Adam, but it w/b more egregious than what they did to Mirai 4 yrs ago! Do they really want to have that much controversy yet again?
***I cant believe anyone's mentioning the Olympics 4 yrs ago. Nagasu in no way deserved to go to the Olympics over Wagner. It whb a disgace if she had in fact. And it w/b an utter crime for Wagner to never have been to an Olympics.***
Then why hold the US Nat'ls if people can just choose who they want to go? Why bother qualifying for all these poor slobs spending all this X & $$ just to be overruled b/c politics plays a part in who is sent to Worlds & the Olympics?
***I wouldn't be upset if Adam gets placed on the team, but I honestly don't think his "body of work," while certainly superior to that of Ross & Vincent is frankly enough to justify it. ...They can't just keep using it every possible chance otherwise Nat'ls becomes a joke. USFSA need t/b selective when pulling that card out & I don't think Adam's one of them.
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...Apparently, Christine Brennan confirmed w/ 3 sources that the US team w/b:
- Nathan, Vincent, & Adam!***
It makes sense, but if it was unfair to Mirai who won Bronze in '14, it's doubly unfair for Miner who won Silver! This is almost as bad as '08 when they had to drop all the way down to #7 Kimmie Meissner due to the podium full of kids not qual. to compete Int'ly!
***Congrats to Adam for officially being named to the team. Very happy for him.***
Really? I think he talks too much & it was his own mouth that got him in trouble! He was putting down a marker days ago; "no way am I not going to the Olympics!" If I were him, I wouldn't be too happy! He just screwed another comp., & not in a good way!
***U.S. Men's Olympic Team:
- 1. Chen
- 2. Zhou
- 3. Rippon
U.S. Men's Olympic Alt:
- 1. Brown
- 2. Miner
- 3. Aaron
- - http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=91145&type=media - -***
***Miner was the US Silver medalist in '13, was sent to Worlds, & finished 14th. That’s why we only had 2 spots in Sochi.***
ReplyDeleteWe understand the justification, but it still doesn't look good! It almost makes Nat'ls irrelevant! All Rippon had to do was stay on his feet & he couldn't = do that! Those last 2 jumping passes should haunt him for all X; forcing the USFSA to save his padded butt! He put too much pressure on himself by mouthing off about the other skaters & their mothers judging Nat'ls! It's all on him causing this drama!
***Mark Mitchell posted on his FB page he's done w/ coaching. 3rd strike: 1st him in '92, then Katrina Hacker in '08, & now Ross. He said he can't continue to tell his students to work hard & they can fulfill their dreams when he knows it's not true. That's a loss to the skating world. It's not just Ross who was impacted by this decision.***
That w/b my reaction! Doing this again so soon will only "contract" interest to do well & perform; not uplift hopes! Another sad day for the USFSA; justified in doing it, but so much controversy chb avoided if Adam had kept his big mouth shut & performed to the best of his abilities!
***Adam was right about going to the Olympics though. He knew he had the body of work & assumed he would place well enough at Nat'ls that it would hold up. It did. If he was in Jason's position, it likely would not have, but he's not in Jason's position, he's a pewter medalist. It would have taken strong politics to advocate Miner over Rippon; but Miner's Mom wasn't on the selection committee to do it. Adam's statement was right.***
That's why FS will go down in history as one of the shadiest sports; probably only surpassed by BOXING! Advocacy shouldn't have anything to do w/ sport success, but we all know coaches are one of the things taken into consideration in moments like this! Truly SHADY indeed!
***Advocacy DIDN'T win out here. Adam's comp. record did. Adam NOT going based on the published criteria whb shady.***
If you say so! If there's no controversy, why is this discussion going on all over the internet & Twitter? I personally don't blame the USFSA for doing what they're doing, but they have to know they're playing w/ other people's lives & dreams! All countries do it, but it's has t/b acknowledged as SHADY!
***...On the USFSA website, most of the people banned are for sex abuse allegations, so I'd imagine they are strict about it when they find out, but one wonders if there's anyone w/ allegations they're sweeping under the rug. I hope not.***
Well it definitely wasn't a shock from years gone by that there was abuse of these kids! Many = knew how sleazy a coach was only to send their kid to them anyway w/ the excuse, "well I have a daughter so it'll be ok!" There were shocking tales that came out in the 90's; some of the coaches continued to work for a while before being run off!
***...I have several dozen VHS tapes from when Nat'ls/Worlds/GP skating was on ABC/ESPN. The last comp. I recorded was Sochi.***
Me too! Skating was so huge after Tonya/Kerrigan drama! It was playing on all 4 networks, prime X telecasts on Fox; not to mention the Pros got in on the $$-train! Those were great days, but after Plushenko & Yagudin rivalry, it just hasn't been the same! Asada & Kim gave a small blip of interest 10 years ago, but since then it's been a graveyard where you actually have to search for coverage! It was nice to see Evgeny one more X & win another GOLD for his team, but that's really been it for the most part! The Olympic channel's helped; esp. going back to past Games so I can re-tape them! I wonder will Olymp. Channel survive after these games?
It w/b so cool if after they got over there, Rippon would feel the guilt of his "ripoff" & pass the torch to Miner! ....NYAH; never happen!
ReplyDelete***Adam's responsible for taking his career into his own hands when USFS was more interested in 'phasing him out' in '15 w/ that low-ball SP score.
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Say what now? Adam got nearly 85 for a program w/ two level 2 spins (including missing a basic position in his last combo-spin) & an under-rotated quad Lutz w/ a 2-foot landing + step out. If anything, you could argue his SP score @ '15 Nat'ls was rather generous!***
Everyone's a victim in the eyes of the fans & competitors; Ashley, Adam, Ross, & Mirai! Just depends on what you want out of judging & who you support @ X's!
***...What about Olympic champions who have "one great skate" @ the OGs? Maybe they s/b subject to "body of work" review.***
ITA! People forget Meissner, Hughes, & = Tara L. that have that 1 great performance which puts their name on the map! Their body of work was short & unimpressive compared to others! It happens!
***Can I just take a moment to say the fact that Johnny & Tara refuse to mention Michelle really sucks as a Kwan Fan.***
What would you like them to say? It's not like they're mentioning any past champions; some from the US that have won OG like Fleming, Hamill, Yamaguchi, & the Silver by Kerrigan!
***And I also find that wrong! It’s what I miss about Dick Button mentioning skaters from the past & the history of the sport. W/ Johnny & Tara it’s all “I love Me” to reference a famous Scott Hamilton #.
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...Nicole Bobek & Naomi Nari Nam, ROTFL! Yeah I'm sure any good competitor w/b terrified of facing a mess who set a U.S record for worst Olympic finish in Nagano & who usually struggled to land a double axel or triple toe cleanly, or a girl who peaked @ 13 & never had anything harder than a triple salchow she could do efficiently. ...***
Nicole being sent was a joke from what I remembered! She watered down her program just to stay on her feet @ Nat'ls knowing the committee would send her to Nagano b/c of her looks & accompanying endorsements alone! It was one of the most pathetic & irresponsible decisions I can remember back then! Nam was just injury prone due to pushing herself to do adult programs w/ that lit'l jr. body of hers! She was a gorgeous skater, but like Caroline Zhang, her jr. success never translated to adult skating! I blame the coaches & parents!
***Bobek was always a joke. I so wish Tonia K. had gotten the spot instead. She was a journeywomen, but was always prepared and professional, which is the complete op. of Nicole. Nicole worked hard for Nat'ls since she knew if she skated half decent there the corrupt USFSA would ensure her being on the team = if Tonia or Angela had the skate of their lives w/ far more tech. content. Then we had to endure wks of absurd hype of a U.S sweep which was never going to happen as Nicole predictably went to the Games & bombed. ...= Bobek's world medal (which the judges were salivating to award her a gold if she simply stayed on her feet ...) was a joke, falling twice & giving up the last 40 secs of the program.... As for Nam, she's like a Caroline Zhang except just lasting 1 or 2 yrs rather than 12. - If you look @ the protocol it's all there in b&w - quad Lutz under-rotated w/ -3 GOE. ...Have a look at the actual protocol. ...***
No one wants to hear it so they can justify the choice of Adam w/ a subpar effort! ...Adam probably should have just kept it clean & skipped the Quad Lutz this Nat'ls IMO! The judgement would have looked a lit'l > shady since the result was one of the most awful performances of someone being selected out of hand as they've done "yet again!"
I don't understand all the drama concerning Adam; did we forget Johnny Weir altogether? He had a video crew following him around for months producing that series on Sundance yrs ago; "Be Good Johnny Weir!" He led the way @ Olympics in Torino being 2nd behind Plushenko after the SP!
ReplyDelete***Adam shouldn’t = be going to the Olympics. He's a loser; 4th place, quad< journeyman. It s/b Ross Miner going.***
It's happened before & it'll happen again; the injustice of "the system!"
***I can't believe a "is Kwan overrated" topic comes up annually.***
As much as I've never been a fan of Kwan's, I don't think I've felt she was overrated; more a problem w/ the fans & commentators "fawning" & slobbering over her! ...I just preferred the jumping of a Surya or Irina & balletic styles of Sasha & Oksana believe it or not!
***And Dick Button was the worst of the worst. He was the =lent of gotoschool for Mao when it came to Kwan or his other pet Sasha Cohen. Remember him saying after her LP @ the '99 worlds whining that the judges did not put her 2nd after the SP & instead put her 4th since she had "only one fall." When everyone else, including the American journalists, some of them typically Kwan ubers were saying she was massively held up t/b 4th in the SP. Dick literally made a complete fool of himself whenever commentating on Kwan or Cohen; Cohen probably = moreso believe it or not.***
I well remember Tatiana Malinina being robbed & placed in 5th when she was clean in her SP! This has always been a shady sport using subjective judging to place these skaters where they wanted rather than where they deserved! She wound up in 4th after the LP, but you never know; she mhb on the podium if not for how crooked FS has been for as long as I can remember! No one abused more than my all X fave Surya Bonaly! She just never played their game & she was punished for it X & X again!
***Malinina wasn't actually clean in the SP. She had a turn btw her 3-lutz & double toe. W/o that turn out I'm 100% sure she's 2nd to Butyrskaya in the & the silver medalist = if she's 3rd behind Kwan in the LP. ...***
Well she had t/b cleaner than Kwan! I barely remember since almost 20 yrs ago, but I seem to recall MK's axil was singled in the SP, then in the LP she had a turnout on her Lutz combo! I def. believe Kwan was held up! The only X I agreed w/ such a thing was probably in '02 SLC! Plushenko blew his combo in the SP & was kept in 4th place to keep him in the running for OG! I knew he wouldn't win due to the ordinal system where Plushenko would not only have to win the LP, 2 other skaters would have to beat Alexei! Yagudin had no pressure on him & skated well, getting the final 6.0's of the skating era!
***Fiero425, it seems t/b a pattern when the judges want to hold up the big name who falls in the SP they always place them in exactly 4th, irregard< the quality of performances from the others. Ito '92 Olympics, Browning '92 Olympics, Kwan '99 Worlds, Stojko 2000 Worlds, Plushenko '02 Olympics, Slutskaya '98 Worlds, etc...***
Back in '97 during the GP @ the NHK, Kulik was "the man" favored to win OG! He blew his 3 Axel in the SP, actually singling it, but still led w/ the commentators agreeing & making excuses for the judging when 2 other skaters performed clean icluding our own Dan Hollander! All you can do is shake your head seeing this nonsense go on yr after yr! At Nat'ls this same skater performed well until the very last element of a double axel & he was crucified, dropped precipitously in the standings, & didn't qualify for Worlds! It's just mind-numbing to see these egregious acts go on!
The commenters made Carolina K. seem like she skated the performance of her life @ Europeans! Supposedly the only reason she's in 3rd after the SP's b/c she executes her < than dynamic jumps early rather than later in the program for +ed pts like the top 2 Russian women! It was absolutely ridiculous IMO!
ReplyDelete***Wow, what an incredible skate by Kostner @ age 31, prob. her best SP ever. It's an insult to the sport that a childish, immature, & clunky skater like Zagitova gets virtually the same PCS as Kostner or = Medvedeva, but that kind of bad judging is the norm these days.***
So you think Carolina s/b leading after the SP = though her elements were < than spectacular or hard? You're proving my pt. & are sorta complicit in the shady scoring of figure skating!
***Fiero425, I did not say she s/b leading. I agree Zagitova deserves to lead overall as her TES is deserved. However her PCS is far too high. Her frenatic arms & "Swan Lake" on crack is horrendous to watch. Her LP while still having some artistic weakness is far superior to her SP.
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Fiero425, the instance you referred to above is b/c Dan Hollander was the very man who cost the U.S 3 men's spots @ the '98 OG's. He was never going to catch = a slight brk @ Nat'ls. As Christine Brennan said in her book, he whh to hang by the rafters @ Nat'ls to earn a place on the team.***
I well remember it & was terribly resentful that during the Qualifying, he was incompetent & missed just about every jumping pass! I didn't see, but back then we had to hear or read about it! Someone really got on my case for being so hard on DAN; maybe injured, but you know more about it than me!
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I faintly remember Michael Weiss had some blades specially made so he could do that spread-eagled split on his heels! I was terribly moved by his perf. for the '97-98 Olympic season w/ the Bach LP & trying a Quad Lutz (2-ft'd)! To beat out Eldridge, he had to do something special! It mhb intimidating to force a very cons. Todd to try a 4T @ Nat'ls! Of course he missed it; but the judges weren't going to send him to Nagano as a R-up w/ Silver! More shady goings on! This is when skating was skating though; Urmanov, Kulik, Yagudin, & Plushenko ruled that era IMO! TE had no real chance to win, but should have @ least taken Bronze in Nagano; blew it allowing Candeloro to win his 2nd OM! What a joke! What was going on his TE's head? He got such glowing praise all over the place, but never fulfilled that promise IMO!
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Seems like it was just yesterday Timothy Goebel was the Quad King, now he's more the Prince making it fashionable to perform more than 2 in the LP & @ least 1 in the SP! At Europeans, guys are attempting 2 in the SP & now Nathan's taken it to a new level going for 5 or 6 in his LP! I just never thought I'd see the day while the ladies are woefully lagging behind! Surya & Irina did more 20+ yrs ago!
***...I like how he says he prefers Mao to Kim, yet repeatedly tries to throw shade on her '08 Worlds win which wasn't as controversial as he makes it out t/b IMO. It was a closely contested comp. b/c no one went clean. Mao had a big fall in the free, but Kim made a major mistake in the SP & her free skate wasn't exactly error free either. ...In fact, Mao shb scored much >er for her SP & placed above Kostner.***
I was one who preferred Mao over Kim, but had no illusions about who was more talented! Asada was the jumper I liked; sorta like Surya or Irina compared to MK! The only chance she had to win w/b to skate perfectly & nail her 3A w/ more than a couple errors from Yuna unfortunately! Mao performed 3 Axels over her SP & LP, but it didn't matter; Kim had the Olympics & those World titles sown up except when she made those errors dropping her to 3rd place! = then, it was explained away that she "had t/b injured!"
***There were no real rivalries in the Kwan era. Only the 13 month Kwan-Lipinski one which only existed due to Kwan bombing Nat'ls in '97 & the Kwan-Slutskaya one which the ISU invented since the field was so pathetic those yrs. ...What else was there, Butyrskaya vs Kwan, Suguri vs Kwan, Arakawa vs Suguri in Japan, Sokolova vs Slutskaya in Russia, Robinson vs Michelle Currie in Canada?
ReplyDeleteContrast to the the 10 prev. yrs where you have numerous AMAZING rivalries: Kim vs Asada, Asada vs Ando, Kim vs Ando, Sotnikova vs Lipnitskaya, Ando vs Rochette, Asada vs Rochette, Medvedeva vs Zagitova, Pogorilaya vs Medvedeva. Or the yrs prev. to the Kwan era where you had Witt vs Thomas, Thomas vs Trenary, Witt vs Manley, Manley vs Thomas, Ito vs Trenary, Yamaguchi vs Ito, Yamaguchi vs Harding, Harding vs Kerrigan, Kerrigan vs Baiul, Bonaly vs Baiul, Chen vs Bonaly; again an end< list.
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Regarding Kim vs Mao, IDK how Kim ever received >er GOE or PCS than Asada is supposably a sign of bias to Kim. Kim does most definitely deserve >er GOE on jumps. They're gen. of much >er quality than Mao's, w/ only a few exceptions like the double axel where they are about =. If Kim regularly got >er GOEs on say spirals or the layback spin than Mao, I could see the argument, but this doesn't happen. As for PCS in '06-08, Mao gen. got = or >er PCS than Yu Na, so if anything the judges preferred her pre-Tarasova. Then Mao went to Tarasova who gave her awful programs & ruined her artistry, so it's no surprise Kim got >er PCS in '09-10.
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Mao's '14 LP also had the beautiful artistry you expect of her. Thank goodness she left Tarasova. It's ironic her '10 LP got so overscored on PCS, but her '14 LP was really underscored on PCS. She = got lower PCS in the LP than Julia which was crazy, but the scoring was rigged for the Russian girls in Sochi anyway.***
Not a fan of Tarasova, but she's a taskmaster who got skaters to new heights each X I can remember! Yagudin & Cohen were highlights IMO = though USFSA bullied Sasha to go American later! The programs developed & performed were classics; esp. from Yagudin who I never cared for! Mishon didn't get the most out of him, but I could see the change the following season after Tarasova took over! Sasha's programs were intense, beautiful, & w/o peer except the silly mistakes made on the simplest of jumps! It's like Cohen couldn't have 2 clean performances no matter how lovely!
***Zagitova skated great @ Euros, but we don't know yet if she can handle the pressure of being the fave. Also I think Med was not quite there yet, coming off an injury. I'm still hoping that Medvedeva wins the OGM w/ that beautiful LP.***
IMO they're interchangeable! Both do that hideous "arm over the head" maneuver in their jumping passes!
***They land their jumps. They deserve to get pts for those. Actually the Rippon jumps look very pretty & both are doing those. - Yes. Even now, Carolina Kostner has the best basic skating skills of any Ladies skater this century, perhaps ever.***
I just don't understand this Carolina love-fest! Am I missing something? Karen has a >er chance @ the Olympics IMO! - Those skills won't do her a bit of good if she can't stay on her feet during her jumping passes; btw they're not up to the standards of today's skaters! I barely watched Euros for that reason; only the Russians really impressed me & = they aren't favs for reasons stated many X's before!
***If you have access to the archives, you should go read posts about Patrick Chan and why he was marked the way he was despite his falls. You might find it enlightening.***
Probably not! Judges are selective in that respect; giving tons of credit for skating skills when jumps aren't up to snuff, while punishing others when they skate fairly clean! I've seen it happen for over 40 yrs! There's always an agenda we all have to believe is going on! SHADY!
***...Was Yagudin's comp. that hard. He faced Plushenko, but others weren't really a threat to him. Stojko was past his prime & never the same post his Nagano groin pull. Weiss was a contender, but really no comp. for Yagudin either. Goebel beat Yagudin once when he in Yagudin's own words "today was his absolute best skating & my absolute worst." Stojko, Goebel, Abt, Weiss, old quad< Eldredge had a combined 1 win over Yagudin post his '98 World title.***
ReplyDeletePlushenko was Yagudin's only peer! = when he skated poorly, the judges gave him the marks to win except that one instance where he was bloody awful; missed jumps & = tipped forward falling on a spiral sequence giving the gold to Goebel! After Yagudin retired, Plushenko had no peer & when he lost, it was all on him; mistake, injured, or WD!
***Which women had the hardest comp. during their reign? - Theoretically it was Chen. Btw '93 & '96, she had to compete w/ Baiul, Kerrigan, Witt ('94), Ito ('96), Slutskaya, Kwan, Lipinski ('96), Bonaly, & Butyrskaya; = 7 World Champs, 9 World medalists, 3 Olymp. Champs, 7 Olympic medalists. Prob. telling that the yr. she won her World title, there was 'only' 15 yo Kwan, Slutskaya, Bonaly, & Bobek.***
I picked Chen as well for that reason! It's not like she was ever the best over an era, but there were so many other champions & near champs to compete against to keep her from winning more! I had stopped watching skating during the Witt era, but came back for Kerrigan/Harding @ Olympics of '94! I fell in love w/ Surya Bonaly who seemed t/b in line to win Bronze, but she blew her Lutz in the LP after a spectacular start of 3T/.5L/3S allowing Chen to take that spot on the podium! After winning Worlds the following yr., Chen seemed to go into a tailspin, but miraculously was able to get herself back on the podium in '98 Nagano; same w/ Candeloro for the men! I'm in awe of her accomplishments w/ the burden of being from China during some tragic moments!
***Chan isn't likely to give @ least a Bronze medal performance in the team comp. of the Olympics. Since his comeback he has not made it back onto the World podium & this season he's skating far worse than the previous 2. Kolyada has been skating >er & posting >er scores & getting >er results than Chan this yr.***
IMO Chan has always been @ a disadvantage; esp. these days when the quad is so nec.! His 3 Axel is his Achilles heel & I wouldn't depend on him doing great things for the team! Plushenko has a >er chance of coming out of retirement & excelling in this position of old vets contributing to a team!
***My picks for the Okympics are Medvedeva & Fernandez.***
Fernandez? Sounds like home cooking!
***If he skates his best, he has as good a shot as anyone else IMO. I think going clean he would beat Uno & possibly Chen, only losing to Hanyu who rarely skates cleanly himself.
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Granted none of the teams who are likely to medal (Russia, U.S, Canada) s/b giving up more than 4 pts in any event in either program @ the 4 CCC.***
What in the world is going on at the 4CC? I haven't been watching much, so checked results! What's going on with Grant Hochstein? He's in 15th place after the SP! Why is Jason skating instead of Minor? Is he pouting over not being selected to the Olympics as the Silver medalist? Wagner also declined to go it seems; another spoiled brat or what? I never heard about any injuries so that's where my thinking is going!
***Miner & Wagner WD about a wk ago. It was probably over dissapointment over missing the Olympic Team.***
They both had a chance to embarrass the USFSA by going to the 4 CCC in Taipei City, Chinese Taipei & doing well! They blew it so "cry me a river!" Japan women owned it; Gold going to Sakamoto, Silver took Mihara, & the Bronze went to Miyahara! The men: Jin Boyang takes the Gold, Shoma Uno Silver, & Jason Brown stole Bronze!
***The OLYP. '18 was a fantastic comp.! Not a splatfest @ all, which probably upsets the ones hoping for it.***
ReplyDeleteIt started that way during the team comp.! I thought maybe something was wrong w/ the ice, but the ladies didn't have any problems! Nathan just had 2 bad performances, but outdid himself in the FS yesterday! Too bad he blew the SP so badly, he couldn't pull a "Denis Ten" from Sochi! He was close, but there were just too many other good skaters! He had a real chance of winning w/ that LP; too bad!
***IMO, Zag gets inflated PCS scores. Hers are almost as high as Kostner's.***
Kostner's scores are always inflated IMO! IDK how she remains so high in comp. when her skating is so far below the top skaters; obviously giving her more in the component scores! Ridiculous! If the jumps aren't there she shouldn't = be close to these top girls! She just got back the LUTZ so it helped!
***I think Kostner deserves >er PCS scores than Zag. But, if she doesn't have a great jump, she shouldn't get the GOE for a great jump. Kostner wasn't = close to Zag's total score.
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And Kostner on her WORST day, = if she fell on every jump would deserve >er PCS than someone like Zagitova who has the elegance, style, & musicality of a baby elephant having a bowel movement. Her skating skills are unmatched & her line & elegance is not = close to being matched by all but a few skaters, which comes w/ age and exp. in the sport when you are a talent like her.***
Why try to compare a child w/ a woman who's been @ it for her 4th Olympics? Please! Carolina s/b more mature out on the ice & a child like AK w/b more spastic w/ less grace! Give her X, but she totally deserved the GOLD! Hanyu saved his standing by having a SP cushion to help him; AK did the same!
***The Big O is usually how I feel after watching Max Aaron's skating! I like his tight pants. I think it's unfair that the judges give him costume deductions! The judges are always finding reasons not to give Max the marks he truly deserves!***
ReplyDeleteIt's ridiculous to see Max behind Jason each X when the tech. content was so much more in Max's performance! My mouth went agape @ it in the 4 CC in Jan.! Max m/b the typical stiff US skater, but the jumps were sound! J/b Jason can do spirals shouldn't overrule completed quads! That was a complete joke; scores totally given to Jason on rep. & seniority over tech. content! When was that ever the case in men's skating? Even Yagudin was losing to Plushenko early on b/c of his 2 quads! It forced Alexei to do more which eventually broke down those hips in '02 after the Olympic yr.!
***I don't understand why Max doesn't get >er PCS when he chooses music that he likes & Jason only does what Rohene forces him to skate to!
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My wife always teases me & says that my mouth become agape whenever there's a real stiff male skater on the TV! It's just a habit from my navy days I guess!***
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Vincent Zhou had an incredible SP @ Worlds w/ 2 quads (Lutz & Flip) putting him into the lead w/ Max Aaron to follow who survived his lone quad attempt! He scored close to 97 pts. w/ a couple skaters to go, then the last group!
***Nathan's SP jump landings weren't the best today, but he held on to 4Lz+3T, 4F & 3A - 101.94 - currently in 1st. ...Ben Agosto mentioned that Max recently had started a job in his home state of AZ before he got the call to go to Worlds. It currently looks like he will finish 15th (79.78) in the SP.***
It's hard to believe seeing this happen again & again; reputation & ranking still helps or hurts w/ scores! Max's program was fairly clean, but still wound up well behind other skaters w/ poor GOE or jumping passes not as difficult! Dimitri Aliev tripled his 4T & still wound up over 80 pts. while getting nothing for it since it was a repeat from successfully execution in his 4Lutz combo!
***I'm not a fan of Vincent, but I kind of get this feeling that he can win this outright. He has no fear; feels less pressure than Nathan. He's not quite so exhausted.***
The judges won't allow it! He had a good program w/ a 4L for Gawd-sake and he's still running behind his seniors! Kolyada had 1 quad & Nathan had shaky landings! Max way back & I can't understand it besides him not being well enough known internationally!
***Wakaba Higuchi s/b on the Tursy-POTS short list.***
She made the podium! What a surprise! Figures Zagitova would pay one day trying to do all those jumps in the 2nd 1/2 of her program! It finally caught up w/ her! After missing that Lutz, there was nowhere else to go & think of changing things! Congrats to Osmond; what a shock!
***Congratulations to Nathan Chen on becoming the new World Champion! It mhb a seriously fugly comp., but Nathan @ least did himself proud. And good on Max for coming in as 3rd alt. & helping the US hang on to 3 spots for men. I want to give poor Vincent a big hug. He looked devastated.***
I missed Max; not waking until the last 3 or 4 skaters! What a messy ending, but happy for Nathan; the only one of the faves to stand up after all's said & done! What in the world happened? No wonder they usually skip it after the Olympics; Yagudin one of a few to perform well after winning back in '02!
***I was lurking on other boards & Nathan's World Champ status is drawing a lit'l army of detractors/ haters. I guess it comes w/ the territory. He conquered his Olympic demons, skated last while holding the lead, & had dealt w/ a small foot injury. I don’t see how you can’t have total respect for that.***
ReplyDeleteWhat can they possibly be "hating on?" Everyone else crashed & burned, while Nathan skated quite well & didn't hold back when he could've w/ his lead! It wasn't = close so I can't imagine what their beef c/b!
***Ross Miner @ Nat'ls vs. the Worlds Field:
1 Nathan Chen USA 321.40
2 Ross Miner USA 274.51
3 Shoma Uno JPN 273.77
4 Mikhail Kolyada RUS 272.32***
Like Mirai in '14, I wonder is Ross chewing bullets over being stepped over saving Adam from humiliation after all his "trash talking" before Nat'ls? I'm not saying it was a bad decision, but feelings have t/b hurt when you perform well in that moment & someone else takes the spot on the World Team!
***I strongly suspect that if Miner had been named to the Olym. Team, he wouldn't have competed @ Worlds. Neverthe<, the possibility of Miner as the '18 World Silver Medalist is quite something to contemplate.
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This season has been exhausting. - Totally! I most definitely need a holiday now.***
If you were around 20+ yrs ago, you'd be more exhausted! Skating was so prevalent after the "Tanya/Nancy" drama; the GP was prime X on Fox! The amateurs & pros had their events telecast weekly thru the summer, culminating in the "Goodwill Games!" It c/b on X channel! We get lit'l pub in comparison to then! You have to hunt down coverage now = w/ the Olympic Channel!
***There were comps every wk. during the late summer & early fall. SomeX's X comps most of which had live streaming.***
You're saying you wouldn't be exhausted or are you contradicting the idea of more skating being televised? Heaven knows I can't say there was much in the way of live streaming back in the 90's! Windows was just created for Gawd-sake! I just seem to remember taping a lot of skating back then; Surya as an am. & Oksana as a pro! I was sending tapes to friends there was so much it was hard to keep up w/!
***I meant there's more skating to see now than 20 yrs ago & it's not made for TV fake comps. And, skating is easy to access & watch if you want. We = get to see the jr. GP events.***
Well that was what I was talking about; plenty of made for TV events b/c skating was HUGE back then! There was "ICE Wars" to look forward to along w/ prime X events w/ special rules! I found it quite entertaining b/c they started using music w/ vocals! Until then, the only person that got away w/ that was Katarina Witt who did a quick "hum" of a few bars of something during her music @ the '94 Olympics in Lillehammer!
***I'm sure it was a magical time for fans back then, but I'd rather go thru the 100's of senior b w/ lousy streams we have today instead of one of those cheesy-fests shows & "pro" comps of The mid 90s. The competition side is what makes skating interesting for me.
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...What a messy ending @ Worlds this yr. When I watch Max Aaron skate, it always winds up leading to a messy ending!***
Well I still haven't seen him since I turn away often from the repeat telecasts! Max saved us a spot by being in the top 12 since Nathan won; we'll now have a full allocation of 3 skaters @ Worlds next season! Unfortunately the women can't say the same; dismally low in the final results, but only because the rest of the world is so much better!
***Kwan left Frank, costing her the '02 OGM in the process.***
ReplyDelete...Slutskaya was in Kwan's head by then! There was a TV event called "Masters Of F.S.;" more an exh. comp. like the Japan Open! It was that FALL & Kwan had already dropped a warm up in Australia, the '01 Goodwill Games to Irina! Slutskaya did her thing w/ 3 triples to "Samson & Delilah!" Kwan doubled her 3F in "East Of Eden!" She fired Frank that night! ...She finished the season losing Canada to S. Hughes, The GPF to Irina, & = though the fave @ SLC, only the judges could save her!
***She just got all the fawning b/c her consistency made her eminently marketable. Big sponsors could invest in her & count on her to make the World or Olympic Team.***
My faves over the yrs were the exact opp. & as inconsistent as you could find on the ice, but they were still STARS; Slutskaya, Bonaly, Cohen, Urmanov, & Plushenko! ...They usually got scorn; esp. someone like Surya who didn't fit the "ice princess" façade of the tour!
***Evan gets so hated on for his OGM, but he was a World Chp. & X US Nat'l Chp. ...I think people just don't like Evan.***
...He well deserved the OGM @ the X, but other skaters had to falter as you said! Not sure IIRC, but = after Plushy performed so abysmally w/ a few shaky landings, he was still only a 2-axel behind in the scoring! ...Arakawa pulled back on her program's jump passes since Sasha hit the ice twice on the Lutz & Flip triples! IMO, no one was as gifted on the ice, but Sasha found ways to come up short to skaters not in her class!
***...I'd agree w/ you except for the fact I dont sense Hughes is < downplayed than Lysacek @ all. Lastly it's worth noting Lysacek has fewer Nat'l titles than both Weir & Abbott, extremely strange for an Olympic & World Champ. to have fewer Nat'l titles than 2 guys who never truly made it big. Just as it is worth noting Olympic Champion Hughes doesn't = have a Nat'l title.
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...Personally, I enjoyed Evan a lot when he burst onto the scene in '03-04 season. Afterwards, he seemed much more controlled & very careful except when he put his skate in his mouth when commenting on Weir. …I remember Weir calling Lysacek a "slore" or something which seemed like an immature & random insult.
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...At least Abbott has the bronze in the '14 team event, but right now medals in the Oly. Team events are relative in terms of their overall significance, despite being worthy & valuable for many skaters.***
Gawd, what a wasted career! I was never a fan due to his rivalry w/ Weir that got ugly @ X's & his gen. attitude just rubbed me the wrong way! He should have won a lot more after all the buzz over the yrs! Btw that blade breaking on him 10 yrs ago & the chronic injuries related or not related to that accident, any news of him after '10 Vancouver had t/b talk just to keep his name out there for his endorsements purposes!
***'08 U.S. Nat'ls: Evan was injured & he skated sloppily in the FP, but the judges manufactured a 'tie,' which gave the win to Evan over Johnny. It was highway robbery. Of course, Evan then had to pull out of Worlds due to his injury which gave Johnny the better opp. to medal. ...Clearly, U.S. fed politics were fully behind Evan (3rd @ U.S. Nat'ls) & not Johnny (the U.S. chp.). ...After '10 Olympics, Abbott didn't ever get back into U.S. Fed's full graces. When Evan made mistakes, he had been coddled. When Abbott made mistakes, he was clobbered. So Abbott paid the price in '11, then came back in '12-14 w/ some of his best performances, = though he never had great success @ Worlds.***
Evan was obviously coddled & favored by all concerned! I was really ticked off w/ that BS about a tie & handing the GOLD to Evan!
***IIRC Johnny & Evan were tied in total pts in '08 & the TB was the short tech. score by rules. Johnny mhb the artistic skater, but in the end it was the SP that tipped the scale. I didn't feel like the U.S. Fed was sending a message.***
ReplyDeleteThe USFSA'll always run games w/ people's futures & their participation in these things! Ties are suspicious; esp. when the elements are so diff.! Back in '02, Eldridge was up for his 3rd Olympics @ SLC! He was the prohibitive fave @ Nat'ls w/ only a skinny kid from Chgo trying to complete quads w/ no artistic jeux de vie in his skating as his real comp! IIRC Timothy Goebel wound up being tied w/ TODD after the SP, but they gave Eldridge the top due to his artistic score b/c Goebel tech. did more! ...Tim kept his feet @ SLC, completing all of his quads, & won a Bronze for the USA while Eldridge was in 6th well out of contention! He not only won that Bronze, but 2 World Silver medals behind Yagudin & Plushenko in cons. seasons! Again TE had the respect of the USFSA @ the expense of disrespecting Goebel!
***ITA w/ what you say; Todd going to 3rd Olympics in '02 b/c the USFSA had been playing faves w/ him since @ least '92.***
Loved it! When Rudy Galindo beat him in '96, El just had t/b in shock! Rudy just outskated Todd to Swan Lake!
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As far as I'm concerned Michael Weiss beat Todd @ '98 Nat'ls! J/b the judges are a bunch a corrupt hacks didn't change that for me! This was an Olympic yr. & they "chose" Todd regard< of the performances! It was criminal, but it's sorta the norm here & elsewhere!
***Okay then. You did say 'as far as' you're concerned that Michael beat Todd. ...I certainly am glad that it's only your opinion.***
I'm not = a fan of MW's, but been watching the sport for decades & as much as this new scoring system is supposed to alleviate the chances of bias, it's still as corrupt as ever w/ the whole world watching! J/b there's a consensus winner @ X's & people are satisfied w/ the results, it doesn't elim. shady dealings going on! Even in the Olympics you have to ?? some of the decisions; Rippon's team performance position puzzling to many!
***Michael's quad lutz was badly underrotated & 2-footed. And he badly botched a planned 3-flip/3T combo, turning it into nothing. Todd's performance was unspectacular & had a bad splat on his quad toe try, but pretty much clean otherwise. I was fine with the outcome, there are far worse outcomes in the sport than that one. ...That last pt. being part of why Todd got the benefit of doubt when Weiss was hardly perfect either as I noted, & the reason people like Kwan, someX's Cohen, & others m/b held up/gifted @ Nat'ls someX's too. All federations do it @ their Nat'ls. If you ever watched the Russian Nat'ls I guarantee you they are 100 X's worse than the U.S Nat'ls as far as bias, politics, & corruption.***
...It c/b more revisionist history on my part, but like Mirai winning in '08, the USFSA didn't want the US Champ virtually unable to represent them internationally! Sasha wasn't old enough in 2000, but might have qualified for Worlds if she won the Jr. Worlds! ...so it made sense to the FS powers pretty much "chose" Michelle over Cohen! Regard< of her results, I can watch Sasha all day long!
***Yeah I think that was probably also @ least a partial pol. decision. Granted I think Kwan probably deserved to win the LP = w/ a totally subpar LP w/ Cohen's last fall, but Kwan 100% shb 4th in the long behind Nikodinov. It whb kind of stupid to send either an unproven 14 yo. (Hughes) or a jr. skater who might not even be able to compete @ Sr. Worlds as the U.S Champ. It would majorly have sunk Kwan's status internationally, so whb kind of dumb = if it is the result that prob. shh.***
***Well, the Gold in '96 wasn't the only medal Eldridge won @ Worlds. Todd took Silver in '95, '97, & '98, then Bronze in '01. As for Nat'ls, he placed 4th in '94, Gold in '95, Silver in '96, Gold in '97 & '98, took Silver in '01 & Gold in '02.***
ReplyDeleteI think Todd had a chance to do 4 Olympics, but only went to 3 IIRC! Something must've happened in '94; m/b injury & he wasn't selected! W/ Lillehammer coming up, the pros were allowed to come back! ...& allowing Eldridge that Silver in '98 Worlds!
***Regarding Todd, he was always quite humble in victory. As an up-and-coming skater, I think Todd was surprised & m/b slightly embarrassed about winning over Paul. Todd still had a lot to improve & a long way to go in the early 90s. But Todd kept working hard & he challenged himself, living up to his potential.***
I wasn't watching skating @ all around that era! I have to like what's going on in a skater or how the sport was evolving; neither was happening after Cousins in '80! I just never cared for those skaters; Witt, Hamilton, Boitano! The judging was abismal when it came to these skaters in particular which just made it unwatchable; esp. when they all went pro! Gratuitous 10's when bloods being left on the ice made so lit'l sense to me! If it weren't for Nancy & Tanya in '94 I might have missed that BOON to the sport! I don't think people realize how huge skating became; often w/ telecast on all the networks; Am. & Pro! Loved Bonaly, Urmanov, Plushenko, Slutskaya, & Cohen! Now you practically have to hunt for it; = w/ an Olympic Network!
***...WItt is a great champion & I'm sure Germany was proud to send her to '94 Olympics. Just like the Russians were proud to have Plush as their only man in Sochi so he can win an Olympic team medal.***
The diff. was Plushenko was all Russia had & he actually did help win that OG Team Medal for his country! Katarina just wanted an audience & to fulfil her need for the spotlight! Germany ended up sending another skater to '94 Worlds, Marina Kielmann, so that excuse of sending only someone w/ minimum performance level is a crock! She finished 4th! Katarina was more well known and adored & she stole an Olympic spot thru her selfishness & ego!
***Marina already had 2 Olympic games under her belt & no way was she going to medal & her skating isn't @ the same level as Witt's. - @ Worlds after the Olympics she would have beaten Tanja Szewcenko for the Bronze had she not had 1 of her 2 late falls. Tanja finished above Witt in all their h2h meetings that yr.***
I watched it; just giving drama to my animus toward "The Diva!" Hard to believe she w/b eventually outdone by an even >er ego just 2 yrs later; Oksana Baiul! This drama queen actually strained & hurt herself curtsying; & it wasn't for the extended applause! A few X's there was silence while she posed waiting for more!
***...I think Zhou is going to do just fine under the new rules. He's still developing as a skater, but has a good foundation upon which to build.***
I just watched FS of Timothy Goebel @ '02 SLC Olympics on You Tube! Any similarities in that they concentrated on the tech. side of skating before developing their artistic skills? Zhou s/b a true contender for just about anything if Chan slips up by only a lit'l! We see how great Nathan c/b from his Olympic LP performance, but you can't do that in the SP! They say you can't win w/ it, but it can certainly hurt! He was there & would've beaten Hanyu but for one of the sloppiest SP by a top skater I can recall! Even w/ that, he was in the chair for Bronze until the last 3 skaters so "what a chance!"
***In terms of performance quality, Plushy's really the best, isn't he? He has star quality & command over the audience that surpasses Yags & Hanyu, IMHO.***
ReplyDeletePlushenko's the "Entertainer;" ala Fred Astaire! I have to give credit to both Alexei & Yuzuru; Yags w/ more power & Yuzuru more grace! I flew home from Europe in anticipation of Evgeny winning Worlds that yr.!
***It's important to remember that Yagudin was a bit ahead of Plush. He competed in his 1st Worlds in '97, Plush in '98. That one yr. made a diff.***
Alexei had the advantage of having a more superior & centered coach, Tatiana Tarasova.! Mishin was too tyrannical!
***And that's why if we are only comparing these 3 skaters, I choose Yagudin. For me, Yagudin is/was the best of these 3 @ focusing w/ emotional intensity on fully developing artistry & expressiveness in his skating. And Yagudin was also a very pure, consistent, & superb tech. W/ Tarasova's help, Yagudin worked hard @ trying to become a complete skater. His performances @ '02 Olys were masterful.
...Plushenko is Plushenko, & he'll likely go down in the history of the sport in a class by himself. No one's passion, determination, & strength of will is >er than Plushenko's, IMHO. As far as artistry, Plush had a lot of capability, but he tended to rely more on charisma, rather than on fully exploring aesthetics. ...he did have a catlike, balletic grace.
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According to Plushy Mishin wasn't tyrannical. They've discussed everything, their relationship's like father & son. But you are right Mishin has changed Plush's programs many X's he didn't like the choreographer's works.
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At the very least Yagudin def. had >er & much more intricate choreography than Plushenko. His programs often are below his immense talents, a lot of that is Mishin is not a good choreographer, only a tech. coach, & contain lots of periods of just stroking & posing. Yagudin's programs are also more sincere, emotional, & musical.
I do think Plushenko mhh more talent & potential than Yag in many areas, including artistically, but his choreography did not bear that out. To Plushy's credit he often can perform the heck out of his cheesy/bad choreography, & he has a presence & command out there like nobody else @ X's, although Yagudin's also pretty incredible in that regard.***
We can't deny Yag's power in his skating! There's a delicacy to Plushy which is fine, but comprehensive scoring's going on & the judges apprec. Yag's overall skating package! No doubt about Plushy being more a tactician who almost never had a bad performance, but when he was ruling the tour, there just wasn't anyone who could compete w/ him! As Buttons used to say during commentary about Alexei Urnmanov, "he distracts w/ his hands!" Plushy developed the same skill & was all performance art w/ him after '06 Torino! He had that "air" that no one could touch him & it was true @ the X! He didn't do anything to elevate his skating in the meanX thinking he could rejoin the GP & double his OG count! I was very disappointed in that '10 Vanc. perf.; his landings though upright were atrocious! Even w/ the QUAD I didn't think he deserved it & I'm one who can't stand Evan Lysacek! As much as I was a fan of Plushy's, the only X he really seemed to beat Yags is when he was injured & made an error! When Sasha won, it was more about his completing those 2 QUADS & Alexei coming up short! You have to admit in '01 Worlds, Yags was flopping all over the place; = in the Qualis! I'm shocked he made it thru, but that SP to Rachmon. piece can bring a tear to your eye! It's what I'm talking about; the raw strength, power, & passion that Evgeny never achieved! I can't lie to myself!
***...I personally enjoy Yagudin the most, I had to vote for Hanyu. He has an effort< ease to his jumps & many other aspects to his skating that the others seem to lack (IMO). That said, I'd still rather watch Patrick Chan do basic stroking skills than watch a full, perfectly-skated program from any of these 3.***
ReplyDeletePoor Patrick; such bad luck! He has all this talent, but things happen when it really counts; sans World titles! I've never cared for his skating unfort.; the reck< abandon someX's thinking he can defy the laws of physics/gravity bothers me! It's never really shocking when he falls anymore, but he has commentators so in his corner, it's like it doesn't happen! When Hanya fell twice in Sochi I figured not = Chan can blow this; wrong, wrong, wrong! What is it about Canadian skaters? So many have been just on the cusp from Manning to Chan & all the others inbtwn including Orser, Elvis, & Browning! Browning's one of my all X faves in both Am/Pro ranks! I can still see him being a teammate @ one of those TV events like "ICE WARS;" propping up someone like Surya who was so under-apprec. & underscored by judges! OTOH, Patrick can flop all over the place & still get scores reserved for near perfection! He's not stealing titles, but he's still elevated above what he lays down on the ice!
***His GF's mom, who was a dance coach rather than a FS coach became Chan's primary coach! ...the figure skating coach would say things like "we are just ordinary people doing extraordinary things" while his dance coach would tell him how great he was & that he deserved high score despite major flaws in his performances.***
That's how I see Chan skating; w/ total abandon @ X's! I see blood being drawn sooner or later b/c he has t/b being puffed up by something to skate the way he does when keeping his feet would do him in good stead!
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...I can faintly remember the days when skating was seen & talked about a lot! The thing is the more exposure eventually reveals inequities which are tolerated! IIRC, on one of the tours (COI or SOI); never was much into exhb. skating, there was "THE DIVA BUS" w/ just Witt, Boitano, & Hamill! The others had to cram onto 1 other bus! They actually had the nerve to justify it by saying to our faces, "we earned it!"
***LOL that's hilarious. My aunt was @ a function Witt was also waiting for the room w/ some others next. She barged in before it was over & screamed "YOU GUYS ARENT FINISHED YET?".
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...Johnny Weir was extraordinarily precocious tech. & expressively. His movement quality was divine, & his jumping ability & rideout on landings, coupled w/ his erect posture was so amazingly effort< looking. I'd not call him a great artist. He's an inspirational personality & a lovely, innovative skater, but he didn't fully live up to his potential for a variety of reasons. Lambiel is/was a genius musically & artistically, but he wasn't always consistent tech. ETA: I've also enjoyed the skating of Kulik & Urmanov who were both great technicians w/ an artistic bent, although not exactly great artists. ...And as we know, Bowman suffered from personal demons. However, all of these skaters paid great attn. to the musical & artistic aspects of their skating.***
***Much has been said about Jason's "reaching his potential." Is it possible that m/b he already has reached his potential? Jason's a wonderfully artistic skater & has done some fantastic programs in the past. He's one of the best men spinners we've ever seen. If "reaching his potential" means getting enough jump content to compete for a World or Olympic podium, that may simply never be in the cards for Jason.***
ReplyDeleteSome fans think skaters can hang on forever like Kwan or Eldridge and still be comp. to the end! Those kinds of skaters are rare & far between! Some may hang around longer than they should, but last season's result from Minor @ Nat'ls only got him an honorable mention! He couldn't be trusted to do it again & Rippon was sent in his place @ the Olympics! As much as people love Brown, those glory days are behind him & there's really no other place to go but down! He can keep his style & grace, but the jumps just won't be there for him unfortunately! Check him out at SOI one of these days if they still exist then!
***Yes, but it's also possible he hasn't reached his full potential & that's why he decided to take a chance & make the move to Toronto. My impression is Jason strongly desires to have another op. to make an Olympic team. IMO that's a worthy enough goal to continue/strive to improve in the next few yrs.***
I'm just going by what I've been seeing the last 2 yrs! The artistic side of Brown's skating will keep him in the top 10, but he needs to do a lot more than he's able on the tech. side! He won't = get a sniff of the podium w/o a reliable QUAD & he has lit'l hope of developing one @ this late stage in his career!
***I agree JB jumps big. My impression is that rotational speed is more of an issue, but I haven’t actually spent a lot of X watching him.***
Few really skate fast enough as far as I'm concerned; some slower than others! I just can't see Jason turning back the clock & learning to jump >er! M/b if he had had this epiphany 2 yrs ago well then m/b! Not all are meant to skate @ a high level well into their 20's! Anything's possible I guess, but I'm not seeing it so far! The look is >er w/ the haircut, but that won't score him bonus pts!
***His team is saying he's working on starting the rotation sooner, not on jumping higher or turning faster. So I assume that's the issue.
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Njinski was Plushenko's best LP, IMO. So happy to see Yuzuru skating his LP as a tribute to Plushenko. I loved his skate. I didn't care if he made a few tech mistakes on his jumps. Nobody can beat his artistry. His 4t 3A combination was insanely difficult. In Yuzuru's skating we don't just count how many quads he landed. He's on a whole nother level when compared to other skaters.***
Either Njinsky or Petersberg 300 are worth listening & watching again & again!
***I have officially burned out of Tara & Johnny commentating.***
Well you better get used to them! They m/b around for as long as Peggy & Dick; 40 yrs or more!
***No one w/b around for 40 yrs in any job for any reason. Those things just won't happen anymore, unless your name is Joe Buck. - I think Johnny does a good job, but Tara +s nothing except giggling & talking about her skating career.***
It's t/b expected! She was so young when she exploded onto the scene & swiped Michelle's thunder & Olympic GOLD! All she heard was how great she was & actually had a BIO penned into a book @ 16! Did she ever really grow up? When I saw a pic of her w/ a man, I was wondering if it was a case of child molestation! Being a child is all I can see her as & m/b in her head she still hasn't grown up!
***Rika Kihira's very good & may very well win Worlds, but I was a bit dissapointed in her free skate music.***
ReplyDeleteWatching GP Final now w/ the Ladies' SP! Zagitova so mirrors Tara Lipinski meteoric rise just in X to snatch MK's thunder w/ GPF & Worlds Golds before Olympic glory the following season! Kihira to maybe steal AZ's thunder! Anyway, I can't remember such dom. overall with the Russians! As an American we always seemed to represent, but the pickin's have been thin for a while on the Ladies' side of things! The MEN more dom. w/ plenty of talent pushing the elites! The Ladies just can't compete very well on the Int'l stage! I haven't kept up as much so Zagitova coming out of the blue was a bit of a culture shock since US women's only real claim to fame now is Nagasu's 3-axil completion in the team event of the Olympics! Am I wrong? Tennell got a Bronze on the GP, but more shock is she held off Medvedeva!
***Zagitova's much >er skater than Lipinski was, but the comparison is similar. This has tended to happen Olympic yr. The fave ladies skater not winning seems the norm. I wonder who's waiting to take the gold at next Olympics. I don't see shock in Tennell beating Medvedeva in this rebuilding, new coach, injuries, new style yr. for Medvedeva. I'd see shock if Tennell beat Zagitova this season.***
I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone! Maybe I'm looking at the wrong yr. b/c I don't understand all this love & a willingness to overlook Zenya's overall performanceat Natls! Mon Dieu it was absolutely awful!
***Well, see, there's this thing where fans like a performer, & are loyal to her, then stick w/ her thru ups & downs. You should try it someX. It's kind of nice.***
Done it plenty of X's, but I don't act like I'm deaf, dumb, & blind! Sorry! It's just so weird!
***It's called a "rebuilding yr."***
I guess I'm just spoiled! Normally a top skater gets >er when they switch coaches; Yagudin, Cohen, Weir, & a host of others! I've never seen anything like this & I've been a serious disseminator of FS for decades!
***The technique of Eteri & Orser are utterly diff. Of your list, I only thought Yagudin got >er w/ the switch to Tarasova. Weir was way better under Hill & Galina. Cohen switched too much in gen. & the result was hit & miss.***
Those & others haven't had this kind of collapse = w/ an injury! I never thought of Tarasova as Weir's coach; maybe a choreographer! I can only see Hill & Galina Zmievskaia as coaches of the guy! I could be way wrong!
***Which Eteri Olympic medalist hasn't collapsed after the Olympics? Tarasova was Weir's choreographer while he was coached by Hill. Weir also did visiting sessions w/ Tarasova. Tarasova made Weir an honorary Russian on comp. ice.***
I never paid that much attn. to Russian skaters & coaches outside of the top tier who won medals! I guess if I think about it, the ones that come & go c/b victims of Eteri as some of you guys think!
***I think Eteri's just newish coach & her students will get more staying power as X goes on.***
***Congrats to Bradie leading in the SP of Nat'ls. ...Kudos!***
ReplyDeleteOh I missed it! Was shocked, thinking "she's leading w/ Russians" forgetting the overlap of Euros & Nat'l! I need a re-wiring w/ my cable channel for NBCSPT breaking up! NBC w/b about the same when in PT hitting the networks, but can check it out simultaneously on my laptop clearly! Easier yet their performances are d/l onto You Tube! The thing is I'd rather see a full telecast w/ "the girls!"
***Samodurova wins GOLD over Zagitova for Silver @ Euros! Lindfors took Bronze! Fernández wins men's GOLD! US Nat'ls: Alysa Liu wins GOLD over Bradie Tennell for Silver! Mariah Bell took Bronze! Nathan Chen wins men's GOLD!
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I'm happy that Vincent won the silver @ the US Nat'ls. He skated to my fave music CTHD. There's a good chance that he w/b on the World team.***
Who else? Jason can no longer compete in a WORLD event IMO! When skaters are doing 4 Lutz/3T's w/ lit'l effort, trying to make a podium w/ no quad is "past it!" Even Plushenko w/b in trouble @ this pt.! - At 4 CCC Kihira wins GOLD over Tursynbaeva took Silver; Mihara salvaged Bronze! Shoma Uno won Gold for the men! Zhou got Bronze; Brown was 5th!
***...Alina Zagitova & Evgenia Medvedeva?
-1. Do you know who they are?
-2. Do you like AZ & (or) EM?
...
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I hope they remain competitive.***
That remains t/b seen w/ the depth of female Russian skating! Just a season after the Olympics & these 2 are almost irrelevant; AZ being tested by the next wave & EM breaking ranks to a new coaching team! ...It's just jarring to come back a few months later to see what's going on w/ the Russian & Japanese teams! If not for Nathan Chen, the US team w/b only a footnote in world comp.! It just seemed like yesterday the balance of power was more Western w/ Canada, USA, France, & Germany!
***Personally I'd send both Medvedeva & Tuktamysheva to Worlds & drop Zagitova. I guess results wise you can't justify it & she's Eteri's pet so it would not happen anyway. However I feel like she's a growing mess right now &'s bound for a disaster come Worlds. I'll honestly be surprised if she doesn't place the lowest of the 3 Russians.
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Neither Med nor Zag is the skater we saw compete @ last yr's Worlds. It's tough to say who'll do >er @ the upcoming worlds. Hopefully both will recover from this season, which was disastrous for Zhenya, but it ended well for her. I like her Tosca SP. It's her type of music. I don't like her Tango LP. I hope she finds >er music next yr.***
Alina Z's growth spurts have to influence how she feels w/ her confidence jumping! It's nothing new! She just has to work harder to compensate for the change! AZ's getting pushed by a phalanx of new talent behind her! If not careful, she won't = make the world team next season!
***Of course if Zagitova matches her GPF skates, she w/b almost a guarantee to medal, would have a good shot at Silver, & could win if Rika messed up badly enough, but I w/b surprised if she can match her GPF performances come Worlds. I think she's struggling with a variety of issues. The signs were there early, but I think compounding it all was skating great @ the GPF & losing soundly to Kihira who didnt = skate close to cleanly in the LP. It wasnt = the 3-Axel that mostly did it, Kihira absolutely killed her on GOEs, while matching her PCS; the base values weren't = that diff. That sapped her confidence bigX, + to that sharing a rink w/ young girls doing jumps like quad lutzes she'll never realistically be able to match. Some of the neg. blowback still of her controversial Olympic win over Medvedeva. I think she's not feeling that confident, in addition to the physical & tech. issues she's now dealing w/.***
***Cant stand Zagitova's skating = @ her best, but I do grudgingly admire some of the objective traits of her talent; particularly her jumping ability @ her best. She had some complex choreography = if it's an eyesore @ X's. She seems like a sweet girl. Her inevitable fall she's already experiencing is going t/b hard to witness.
ReplyDeleteMedvedeva's a true champion. Not a huge fan of her skating either, although I much prefer it to Zagitova's. Seeing her lose the OG after being the dom. skater almost 3 yrs was sad, but that seems t/b the fate of most ladies stars in skating w/ few rare exceptions like Yu Na Kim, Katarina Witt, & Kristi Yamaguchi, w/ the 2nd tier-ers winning the gold medals instead, or = on occasion the 3rd tier-ers or nobodies like Hughes or Sotnikova. Admire her guts in continuing & trying to make changes, = if there's some obvious short term loss she might never recover from.***
I compare AZ to Tara L., snatching the GOLD from the presumptive DIVA in charge! Kwan hung on for an extra chance in '02, but it was not t/b w/ another 2nd/3rd tier skater stealing her thunder!
***Agreed. Although unlike arrogant diva Kwan, Medvedeva seems like a total class act & sweetheart so it was hard not to feel sorry for her. I am not even a big fan, but it was hard to watch her crying in the "Kiss & Cry" for about 5 mins. In the case of Kwan, it was hard to do anything but laugh to see the entitled princess who thought she should have a gold medal polished & handed over just for showing up & letting out a fart, have the rug pulled from out underneath, = as someone who personally did not like either Tara or Sarah.***
I never warmed up to MK w/ commentators & the press fawning relentlessly over her every move = if she was legit. beat! It was all about KWAN & I was nauseated most of that era! I was so happy to see TL come out of nowhere & start taking those comp. one by one from her; GPF, US Nat'ls, Worlds, then the Olympics in Nagano! After '99 Irina Slutskaya took over their rivalry! W/ SLC they seemed to try to help MK along when not marking her down on her SP 3-Fl. exec. leaving her in 1st place! If not for that bit of shenanigans, Irina might've taken it instead of Sarah H!
***The commentators' gushing turned me off MK & later off Sasha Cohen. I always rooted for Kwan's rivals to beat her. ...I wasn't happy about TL. She was a child w/ a loud squeal. Even though I'm not an MK fan I was gutted for her @ Nagano.***
For some reason, I still remember it like it was yesterday! I've always been a night-owl, so I was just going to bed after 5 AM when I lived in Cal. & they reported that Tara had upset Michelle, playing both their music! I couldn't wait for it t/b televised later that evening! That squeal still haunts me after all these yrs!
***All threads on FSU are still about Michelle Kwan ... = when the title is "What is your attitude to Alina Zagitova & Evgenia Medvedeva?"***
I can talk history >er than current affairs! I can't = keep the names str. in either of my fave sports of tennis & figure skating! The changing of the guard wasn't enough these days! W/ the ladies they come & go like the wind; take an OG & vanish! W/ Russia & Japan it's just plain too comp.! I'm accustomed to a bit more stability in the ranks = though I don't mind change! At my age, it's just gotten to overwhelming to keep up w/ all the sports like I used to so I rely a lot on "harking back" just for a change of pace around here!
***Sale & Pelletier skated perfect at those '02 SLC Olympics. The OGM was given b/c the Russians & French cheated.***
ReplyDeleteI was more put off by the whinging of Jamie Sale as she & David Pelletier went from TV interview to TV interview for days afterwards talking about how they were robbed! Even if true, it was still sour grapes & she got what she wanted in the end; a pity GOLD medal for her t/b "so proud of!"
***So LeGoyne (sp?) was pressured to vote for the Canadians & NOT B/S?? Never heard that one before.***
I don't think I need to listen; well known that deals were struck w/ some judges to give GOLD in 2 diff. disciplines! That was why they went to blind scores to elim. or at least slow down some criticisms @ comps; ultimately going to new scoring system later! Shady goings on continue as far as I'm concerned! Certain skaters have been predetermined to place & something serious like crashing into the wall can only change it! Speaking of crashing, Yagudin slammed into the wall @ '01 Goodwill Games trying to complete a 4T/3T combo in the SP to keep up w/ Plushenko! There was no room, but he'd been dropping comp. after comp. to Yvgeny from the previous season & knew he needed to score as high as possible to give himself a chance! Even though hitting the ice twice & popping his 3A, he still wound up w/ a Bronze medal behind Weiss! It was ridiculous to see Alexei getting rewarded for that performance w/ blood coming out of his ears IIRC! I personally loved "Winter" & felt if he got his act together, lit'l should stop him from having a great season as he ultimately did culminating in OG & World champ. in '02!
***...The comp. in Russia's so brutal, but I hope Medvedeva can stick around nonethe<.***
The last season has been scary looking @ all the talent that exists in Russia on the ladies' side of things! IMO, the men are interchangeable & mediocre @ best! Only where they're from is keeping Kolyada in the top tier of world skaters IMO! World & Olympic ladies champions were being openly challenged by not only other skaters in Mosco, but the media moved on! At one pt. it was only Butyrskaya & Slutskaya, now somone like Elizaveta Tuktamysheva's c/b a World Champ., but the last few yrs it was like "WHO?!" Medvedeva & Zagitova took over & before this comp., it looked as if they'd be supplanted in short order! Good for them they've both bounced back! They s/b very proud of themselves; esp. Alina who wasn't expected to sneak in there & steal Evgenia's thunder last season! It's so Kwan/Lipinski except AZ has backed up her OG win w/ a World title the following season!
***I’ve wonder whether folks like Wagner, Weir, Bonaly & Rippon m/b able to capitalize on their respective viral attn. in recent yrs by jumpstarting @ least 1 or 2 pro comps. Still active names like Lambiel, Buttle, Abbott, Sato & others currently doing shows could Rd. out the lineups.***
Desire isn't enough PEOPLE! Someone's got to pay the bills, get contracts signed, & actually get X slots to telecast the finished product! Diehard fans will pay to go see them, but the real $$ comes from TV! This isn't '98 during the BOOM; hasn't been that way for a long X! The USA stunk yr. in & yr. out Int'l-ly for a while! The Am. ranks have to have a following to crossover to the Pros so they can get a slice! M/b w/ Nathan Chen it might promote more exposure of figure skating!
***I know Medvedeva said numerous X's she only wants to compete for Russia, but I just don't see how she can stay comp. w/ the new crop of Russian girls. If she really wants to continue her Int'l career, her best bet w/b switching countries.***
ReplyDeleteTo keep up, Alina will need every tech. advantage she can muster b/c it won't last from what I'm seeing of the next crop!
***Un< Medvedeva could get the ISU to change the rules, I can't fathom the RSFS would ever release her to skate for another country.
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One would think she was a 3rd rate skater who's just given medals & wins. Alina's a great comp. & a great jumper. She has improved her artistry significantly. She must love to skate & compete. Many Olympic champs retired once they got the OGM (not putting down Yamaguchi or Arakawa here), but Alina continues to compete @ a very high level. It seems her success m/b bothering some who thought she may just disappear after winning the 2 most important gold medals.
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Zagitova will have to make a decision by the end of this season regarding her future. She's extremely popular in Japan & can continue to skate in shows there & Russia & do very well financially. The downside is the travel & amt. of X she's away from home. She's still a teenager & has a lot of opps from which to choose.***
Commentators have been raving about the Russian talent coming up & taking over! It wasn't but a few yrs ago they were struggling to put together a team; now look at them! They may still have to dig up Plushenko to anchor the men in '22 Beijing! Here in the States, we have a few girls in reserve, but so young they won't be able to skate Int'lly for 2-3 yrs! Reminds me of when Mirai won Nat'ls in '08 & couldn't do anything w/ it; 2 other girls were also too young! They had to dip down to 7th place to field a World team IIRC! I couldn't believe this vid of Evgeny w/ Sasha:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVIhAIk75MM -
This took me back to '01 Goodwill Games in Australia!
***On Ice Perspectives filmed Jason Brown's Schindler List***
I look forward to it! It w/b hard to outdo the one X Irina Slutskaya worked a program w/o dependence on jumping! She performed a version of Schindler's list from m/b '99-01 using it @ exhs & minor comps that limited jumps like "The Masters" & The Japan Open!
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3judUdDuE4 -
***I don't believe I've ever seen this from Irina. What a spellbindingly heartfelt, beautiful program! Thanks for posting.***
***Yuzuru says he's really tired & not so focused, so he almost wanted to do the 4A, then retire already. ...He knows that he tends to get injured in the 2nd GP so he w/b careful w/ that. He thinks his ideal skating w/ difficult jumps like the 4lz or 4A are coming together.***
ReplyDeleteIf he's training to do a 4A; get the wheelchair ready! He's already trying to overcome niggling aches & pains; now I hear this! Those harnesses can only do so much so there's going t/b a lot of "crash & burn" to "get there!"
***I think the skaters know the risks > any of us & they want to take risks. It's their life.
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Would it not be interesting to do a PCS comp. Chen v Hanyu? Pick identical music, limit it to triples, 4 spins w/ footwork & let them have @ it.***
You're kidding right? There's no contest; esp. since most US male skaters look like they're performing "w/ a stick up their ass!" There are a few exceptions like Brown, Eldridge, Galindo, & Abbot, but for the most part other countries seem to have our # artistically IMO due to wanting a > "masculine skate" from the guys!
***Hanyu has great speed & edges, wonderful flowout on jumps. But Nathan has superior upper body carriage, >er usage of arms & dancing skills. Hanyu's body carriage is rather loose & he skates w/ his head down a lot. I also find Nathan > of an interesting artist, attempting a >er variety of styles, while Hanyu's rather one-note. It w/b a close contest, IMO.***
Listening to Tara during the Grand Prix, she mentioned the ladies aren't allowed to do QUADs during the SP; WHY? Why is the ISU interfering again & treating them diff. than the men? Not like I care, but it just seems bizarre w/ the abilities of today's kids out there!
***The idea of the SP was that the tech. content was controlled & > limited to allow the judges to make a > apples to apples comparison among the skaters. It doesn't seem applicable as much any>, but also keep in mind that the 1st quad in Sr. ladies was landed March, so there really wasn't much reason to allow quads in the SP b/c no one could do it. It'll prob. be changed for next season.
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Hanyu would cry if he took a year off. I honestly think he's finally hitting a groove & elevating himself into yet another level. He also seems to love competing.***
Hanyu looked "gassed" to me pushing himself to do more techn.! He's not getting any younger & can only skate for so long being pushed by this next gen. of kids; esp. on the ladies' side of things! I hope Chen won't turn out like past greats Browning, Orser, Stojko, & Chan winning Worlds, but R-up @ Olympics again & again! Nathan actually won the LP this past Games, but his SP so awful he didn't medal @ all!
***...Nathan called Raf early the morning of the SP & told him what he was going to do. Raf said he knew Nathan would not do well. He knew what the pressure was like competing @ the Olympics; Raf was right. Had Nathan followed the advice of his coach, he wHH a great SP & likely been Olympic champion. After that fiasco, Nathan's mother doesn't follow him to the comps.***
Just chk'd out Trusova's FS on YouTube! She's just amazing & I can't wait for her to grow into a champion! Her Quads are awe inspiring; no Flutz like "Tara & Emily" from gens past w/ her! She's quite impressive as is! She almost had 100 pts in the Tech. score alone!
***Wow! Osmond's a prev. World Chp. & she won't be @ Worlds either b/c she quit right after winning her 1st title, & decided not to confirm it the next yr.***
ReplyDeleteSorry, but this is about not embarrassing themselves! Who are we kidding? These past champions might get humiliated w/ these new kids jumping like BEANS!
***I'm very happy to hear that Mariah had a great skate @ the Nat'ls. I hope that carries into Worlds.***
Mariah was quite impressive! Emotionally the crowd was w/ her w/ many feeling teary-eyed over her performance, but I knew Liu would blow her out of the water j/b of her jumping ability! Liu's prob. the only lady who w/b able to compete vs the Russians & Japanese in the future! Too bad she's too young to go compete abroad now!
***Yes, Liu & Kihira can compete vs the Russian ladies. Liu w/b age eligible in '22 (m/b '21?) & give them a run for their $$. ...In any case the US ladies are looking pretty good right now. I always liked Mariah Bell, but her jump inconsistency used to drive me crazy. She's having a > season.***
Back in '98, Irina was on the cusp of having problems skating! She had a lost season or 2 allowing Maria Butyrskaya to take over the top spot in Russia & to = capture a World Title over Michelle! As for Surya, it was a miracle she was = in Nagano after such a crippling Achilles tendon injury suffered 2 yrs before! W/I wks of surgery, she was back out there, but was never the same! Her 3 Lutz was gone so by the X the Olympics came around, she was down to doing the simplest of combos to stay relevant w/ the 3T/3T! It was something she could do in her sleep & w/ the comp. out there, it kept her in the top 6; the last group of skaters! I can still see in my head Elvis Stojko & his team supporting Surya to get her thru that SP doing "Caravan" IIRC! I thought it amazing she competed fully in the GP doing that SP & LP of "Samson & Delilah!" For the OG's, she swapped out her LP for an oldie, Vivaldi's "Four Seasons!" It was her swan song before going into the pro ranks where she w/b competing vs the likes of K. Witt, O. Baiul, & = T. Harding once or twice when she was allowed to skate!
***...Not everyone c/b Denise Biellmann or Kristi Yamaguichi.***
Denise? I go back to the late 70's w/ Biellmann, but she had a very limited career, eeking out 1 Worlds in '81! Her claim to fame is the spin named after her; = though done 20 yrs earlier by another skater!
***...When I 1st started watching skating, Kwan was "all that," but she seemed t/b skating the same thing over & over w/ Tosca, Aranjuez, Scheherazade, Bolero; well, I never “got” her.***
Never cared for her either! The constant fawning by so called prof'ls like Buttons & Bezic nauseated me! MK's programs were as structured as anything; same type of music, same ol' tired jumps, & programs! For someone people try to rival Sonja Henning w/, I'd think they'd expect >! She never pushed the envelope! You can ct. on one hand her actually doing anything differently outside of the errors! The judges eventually got tired of her & started awarding wins to Irina S.; = when not deserved like @ '01 GP Final w/ just 3 triples completed! Michelle (5 Triples) & her camp had that "look" like "we was robbed again!" I'd have > sympathy for her if she hadn't taken an undeserved GOLD or 2 herself!
***...I guess this is a mix of skaters I personally do not "feel" &/or feel the fans overrate to the point of annoyance (to me).
ReplyDeleteLadies:
Tonya Harding - outside of that Triple Lutz circa '94 & that 3-Axel. I mean "Wild Thing" provides the LOLs, but that's it.
Surya Bonaly - outside of '95 Worlds & '98 Olympics SP. That Four Seasons LP she did forever was snooze-worthy.
Sasha Cohen - I think skaters should skate w/ edges. She did improve by '06. I never bought her musical expression or connection w/ the music, if there was any.
Irina Slutskaya - I hold her skating to = < esteem now than I did @ the X.
Shizuka Arakawa - love her edges, but she's a true one-hit-wonder w/ only ONE program of hers that I can say I truly like - "Turandot."
Yuna Kim/Mao Asada - They come in a pair for me. I think Kim had some A-level performances, but I never really felt anything from her. Mao's simply exquisite in her gala performances nowadays, but her comp. routines were just blah to me.
Oksana Baiul - Never got her outside her Swan Lake SP.
Men:
Evgeny Plushenko - after '04.
Brian Joubert - I fell asleep during one of his Matrix LP performances from '04 much < all the other times after.
Patrick Chan pre-'15.
Yuzuru Hanyu
Adam Rippon***
...Never been big into Pairs & Dance = though I had a few faves like Anissina & Peizerat! Loved her lifts of him instead of the other way around! Most skaters have brief success; taking truly special individuals who can stay @ a high level over 3-4 yrs! Who was > prodigious than Tara L., coming out of nowhere to steal MK's OG in Nagano @ 16? I can still remember going to bed around 5 AM or so in Cal. & the radio announcing the result! I couldn't have been > thrilled aside from Kulik taking the men's event over Elvis! Stojko had the same problem as Surya, but was able to overcome it somehow by just out-jumping the other men in '97; most of the X coming up short artistically to Alexei Urmanov!
I was initially resentful of Irina taking away from Surya in Europe, but after a while she also overtook Kwan to upset her @ the GP Final & Worlds! Oksana w/o a doubt, the >est/ultimate bust as a one-hit wonder! I was a fan of Yagudin before jumping ship to Tarasova! She brought out > in him artistically, but Plushenko's jumping ability cut Yag's Am. career short pushing him to do > needed vs other skaters! To this day, Alexei Y. mhb the best of all X if not for Plushenko! It wasn't that Evgeny was a >er skater; Alexei couldn't phone it in @ the big events! He needed 2 Quads & in '01-02 he was pushed so much, the damage was perm. & he had to leave th Am. ranks! Plushenko prob. wouldn't have had all his successes if Alexei had been able to hang in there 2 > yrs! I can relate & have something to + about all the skaters mentioned, but need to go! BBL! Thx!
***Paul Wylie. Todd Eldridge. Evan Lysacek. Same guy, diff. X. - Only one is the OGM though.***
ReplyDeleteEvan had the advantage of going up vs a broken down Plushenko in his 3rd Olympics & well "past it!" Love Evgeni, but it's still hard to watch that horrible performance! He was > into an exh. > that Olympic charade! It was lackluster w/ squeaky landings! Even after all that, Evan still barely won by 1.5 pt.; < a double axil if Plushenko had decided to + it! His arrogance was a hindrance on this occasion thinking j/b he completed his quad he deserved the OG! I'm a fan, but = I couldn't excuse that performance!
***When everyone on FSU was oohing & awwing over Farris w/ his Schindler's List program, saying he was a true artist compared to a choreographed one like Brown; I was confused. I thought it was generic.***
Just watched 4 CCC from '15 & the commentators had t/b either drunk or on drugs! They fawned & elevated Farris to Curry status! "He's taking this sport by storm!" IDK WTF they were looking @! I was nauseated in so many ways! His choice of music (it's iconic) made the performance memorable & that's it! They +ed up the jumps as if he completed them; failed attempts don't count! Someone needs to tell these cretins just that! Going to '14 US Nat'ls, I liked his quad attempt! I never got the feeling Brown actually tried to make it > look as if he made a good faith attempt! Farris' landings are all dodgy & everyone needs to hold their breath until he finally comes down! His only advantage IMO is he's younger & marginally cuter! That's all I'm giving him until I see >!
***Skaters I never "got":
Yagudin, Plushenko, Yuna Kim (0 soul in her skating)
Nathan Chen (Still looking where his great artistry is...)
Patrick Chan (It never clicked...)***
Yagudin - was initially a fan until he started selfish rivalry w/ Plushenko
Plushenko - became my new fave = though I knew Yagudin the > complete skater
Yuna Kim (zero soul in her skating) - Agreed; all choreographed & soulless programs! So MK really.
Nathan Chen (where's his great artistry is?) - He's winning on his jumping alone; ala Plushenko! There's no artistry.
Patrick Chan - I've always thought of him as a bit of a wild-man skating so out of control @ X's! It's as if he thinks he can defy the laws of physics & gravity when he goes for some of that edge-work! He's shocked when he hits the ice & I'm saying to myself "he's going down & going down hard!" What an idiot! He had gifts, but m/b it was the Canadian curse or legacy that betrayed him when it really counted @ the Olympics!
***Surya Bonaly - "Four Seasons" (I've lit. spent the last 2 days going thru every perf. of this on YT in seq.***
ReplyDeleteSurya used "4 Seasons" for 2 or 3 complete seasons & as a last min. replacement program @ the '98 Nagano OG's! It had great pot., but the "gypsy" program prob. suited her > as a "signature program!" She won her 5th Euro. & a 3rd Silver World medal w/ it! IIRC, she was doing "Sampson & Delilah" that '97-98 season! It was in the ht. of the fig. skating craze w/ PrimeX "evening" telecasts of the GP! After her Achilles tendon surgery in '96, she was never the same; completing 1 triple Lutz in a pro event 2 yrs later!
***...In total Plushenko had > perfect scores of 6.0 as Yagudin in same per. He had 75!***
I preferred the skating of Plushy, but the true artistic & powerful skater was Yagudin = if he couldn't stay upright all the X! Tatiana brought out the best in Alexei that Mishin wasn't able to bring to the fore! As much as I like Evgeny, there are X's when his performances are pure fluff w/ the arms, posing, etc. that we all came to love in Alexei Urmanov! Elvis was the > powerful skater, but Urmanov beat him when it counted thru artistic impression or what Dick Buttons called "florid arms!"
***...Christine Brennan said Kwan should've won both the '95 &'97 Worlds; = w/ her mistakes.***
Was it the book that put Brennan "on the outs" ...brutally honest how many skaters & coaches had become ill & died from AIDS? The exposing of sexual abuse on the tour rocked the sport as well the last 2 yrs! I bought "Inside Edge," but there's honesty, then there's HONESTY!" I seem to recall the skating community was a bit PO'd & sorta banned her from things for about a yr.
***Terry Gannon once said Michelle was the 'Michael Jordan' of fig. skating. I def. agree she didn't get the level of attn. that other sports in the US would've given her.***
You can say the level of comp. was about the same, but over the yrs Michelle coasted; esp. when her comp. was rather weak! Jordan had to continue working to stay above the fray! Even when MK fell off, the judges kept giving her the benefit of the doubt & would mark her above the performance! I can go down so many ex. of unbelievable scoring; = after going to the new system! The sport will continue being one of the shadiest due to the subjectivity being employed!
***This reminds me of Witt, circa '85-88, who had state-sponsored training for a 2nd Olympic cycle. Of course, MK was in the 1st wave of Amer. skaters that could've simultaneous be eligible & pro to support continued training.***
Rules were made t/b "bent" when it concerned certain skaters! Heaven knows MK & Evgeni Plushenko could walk around w/ impunity & thumb their noses @ admin. of the Fig. Skating Intelligentsia! They were the stars @ the X & knew it!
***Katia Gordeeva remarried?***
Ilia's been divorced from Katia since '16! He's moved on, in Dallas dating someone; like it would last! He was a child & she was a seasoned widow w/ a kid! I'm surprised it lasted that long!
***I know Ilia & Katia divorced almost 5 yrs ago & were separated a lot > that. She has been dating David Pelletier, the co-Gold medalist in '02 for a lit'l while!
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Katya born '71; Ilya '77 so 6-7 yrs diff., depending on actual days. Not so dramatic an age gap. The news of divorce's very sad.***
The age diff. wasn't the only factor I was talking about! There was a serious diff. in life experiences; Katia obviously involved & married B4, & had a child! That's so diff. > some kid who's been spoiled, coddled, & made to feel special for his efforts! M/b I'm just old & see shadows that aren't there! I wish them both full, happy lives moving on!
***...T/B correct: Russia's mostly Asian. So we can say 2 continents.***
ReplyDeleteThe "divide" is on display in FS where there's an Int'l event called "Europeans;" the only countries that can participate are from Europe (The Cont.)! Other parts of the world felt slighted so "The 4 CCC." was created 20+ yrs ago! Asia's part of the eligible countries, but Russia isn't allowed a spot = though most of their mass is in Asia!
***...Christine Brennan, the most highly respected, knowledgable, & revered expert in U.S skating history said Kwan should've won both the '95 & '97 Worlds, = w/ her mistakes @ the '97 Worlds.
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Brennan revered? Hardly. She's just another fan who happens to write for a living. I love Michelle, but she isn't underrated. She's approp. rated as a legend, the best of her era, & one of the BOAT.***
Agreed! Brennan's not all that respected & Michelle certainly wasn't underrated! If anything, she was massively overrated! As consistent as she's thought t/b, there have been > a few occasions where she appeared t/b another person; esp. after that Masters Champ. back in '01 where she fired her coach, Frank Carroll that very night! She allowed Tara & Sarah to sneak up on her in '98 & '02 respectively, then totally underperformed during that per. after '01 where Slutskaya pretty much owned her!
***Tara didn’t sneak up on her. Tara was the reigning World champion & CO-FAVE for OG in Nagano. People forget that very important fact. Also, Michelle was coming off an injury. Sarah didn’t exactly sneak up either. She beat both Michelle & Irina prior to the SLC Olympics. Perhaps you should review those seasons.***
Honey, you aren't telling me anything IDK! I not only followed all the comps, I taped & still have them on VHS cart.! True enough neither Tara or Sarah snuck up on MK, but no one thought they'd win at Nagano or SLC respectively! Kwan's reputation allowed her an undeserved Bronze medal where she made an obvious mistake on her 3F in the SP, but still scored ahead of Irina & Sasha Cohen! That was BS as it affected the "Ordinal" system that was still being utilized! Irina prob. should've owned the GOLD in SLC even w/ Sarah winning the LP!
***Well, it's not as if Irina didn't get any gifts in her career. She got a major one in the '01-02 GPF & then Kwan was pretty much shut out of Worlds no matter how she skated. And = if Irina placed 1st after the SP, there's no telling what whh in the LP. Irina could've found some way to muck it up anyway. And m/b if Cohen learned to skate on edges by '02 she could've beaten Kwan in the SP. Kwan can't help it that she was just da bomb diggity @ that pt. in comparison to her comp.***
That was > a gift @ the '02 GPF! Irina was awful & if memory serves, she only completed 3 triples! I just thought MK & her minions prob. shb the last t/b "rolling their eyes" after so many X's MK's ripped off a medal or standing! It was almost as embarrassing as one of those Pro/Am events set in Canada where Michelle lost to Josee Chouinard who was floundering all over the ice! It was ridiculous w/ her practically leaving the ice w/ bloody knees & elbows taking GOLD! It's hard to take the sport seriously when things like this happen; or worse to this day!
***Alyssa doesn't skate w/ the same maturity as the older women & also noticeably slower so that +s up while her tech. advan. wasn't there w/o the quads & 3-Axels so how should she have beaten skaters who are > mature, faster & have >er jumps? I feel like w/ all of the turmoil of her coaching situation & body changes this was a win for her b/c she could've crashed & burned, but she showed she's a fighter. I imagine she'll start practicing the harder jumps again now that she has a set coaching team w/ Jeremy being +ed & getting used to her new body & not being injured.
ReplyDelete---
At '95 Worlds, the only argument I can see that would result in Kwan getting a medal is if she placed >er in the SP, which is a very reasonable argument considering her content. The most reasonable placement whb 4th, but the overall results whb the same. IMO, Bonaly shb behind Kwan in the SP, but > likely not so behind that a >er LP placement wouldn't overtake Kwan overall. The fact that Kwan got a 3rd place finish in the LP was a sign that the judges would reward her, but she needed to make some improvements. IMO, what did it for her next season was not just the superficial transformation, but having >er ext. & > speed & power in her skating than she did in '95. Btw, '95 was really fun b/c it was one of the few Worlds where Kwan @ 5th place could have won the whole thing had she won the LP, & she skated last. She did everything she was supposed to do includ. 7 triples & 2 triple/double combos/seq. AND w/ 2 double axels. You knew she was a competitor when she had a no-speed exit out of her 1st Lutz, so she tacked on the double toe in sequence on her 2nd Lutz knowing she had to do that in order for it to count. That kind of move was a result of discipline & being well-prepared by coaching, but also an innate killer instinct.
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I've'd Kwan 2nd in the free w/o changing any of the other LP placements. Even w/o changing her SP placement, that whb enough to give her the Silver Medal [Chen 2.5 (3, 1), Kwan 4.5 (5, 2), Bobek 4.5 (1, 4), Bonaly 5.0 (4, 3)]. Although I think there's an argument to have her ahead of Bonaly in both programs.
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I think Kwan outskated Surya in the SP @ '95 Worlds. Surya mhb older, but juniorish Michelle was still a >er, cleaner skater w/ > difficulty. It was the worst kind of "wait your turn" politics b/c Surya's didn't have more polish. ...I actually think Surya did her best skating in '98 & onwards when she actually had speed into her jump entries, good outflowing edges, & showed variety in her steps. She was a phenomenal pro skater.
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Yes, Michelle had the flu @ '99 Worlds & still managed a Silver. She was also skating injured @ '05 Worlds yet managed 4th. That scoring @ that event was almost ridiculous though.***
You say "managed," some say stole! I say Kwan shb in 5th place after the SP behind Malinina to start in '99!
***I'd've to rewatch, but m/b so; however the judges did that. Michelle didn’t steal it. Kinda like Zagitovas 5th place finish @ Worlds after her majorly bombing. Not really her fault, but the judges did that "Reputation" matters.***
...There were sev. occasions that MK was clearly robbed of a victory, but > would think back to wins/medals she didn't deserve, but was "held up" b/c of her name! ...Irina Slutskaya was > "a jumper" & deservedly took over that mantle from Surya Bonaly in '96, but the judges started favoring her anyway over Kwan! By '99 it was al> embarrassing how out of favor MK had become Int'ly IMO! ...Slutskaya took over their rivalry & the judges went w/ her = @ a GP Final completing only 3 triples, but eyes rolled as she took GOLD over MK yet again! Skating hasn't been as entertaining since those drama filled days of scoring controversy, coaching changes, & wild, extraordinary accusations going on behind the scenes!
***I think Kwan outskated Surya in the SP @ '95 Worlds. Surya mhb older, but juniorish MK was still a >er, cleaner skater w/ > difficulty.
ReplyDelete... I think Surya did her best skating in '98 & onwards when she actually had speed into her jump entries, good outflowing edges, & showed variety in her steps. - Absol. I wonder if the judges ever cared about rules or deductions?***
...If the judges truly cared about the rules, Oksana Baiul would've won nothing in her career! No one cheated their landings >; esp. on the 3-Lutz that she 2-footed every single X that I can think of! As a matter of fact, the only clean "triple LUTZ" of OB's ever occurring was @ the 2000 GG which was > a mini-proAM! They brought back skaters from the grave to compete =ly from Kat. Witt & Do. Hamill to Surya Bonaly & Yuka Sato! They seemed to pair the skaters knowing the older skaters couldn't keep up w/ the younger ones! For Oksana, her obvious, nearest comp. was Nancy Kerrigan from '94 OG's! OB came out & skated beautifully, then "went for it" performing the best 3-LUTZ of her career! The "reaction" shot was of Nancy w/ her mouth "AGAPE!" Too bad Baiul couldn't be happy w/ her performance. She decided to + a final 3-Salchow after doubling it earlier in the program! She of course was late w/ the music running out & w/ no speed she fell to boot ruining her moment! NK won their H2H & wound up 5th overall behind winner Surya Bonaly over Yuka Sato who matched up from their '94 Worlds rivalry!
***The CBC commentators spent Surya’s whole program talking about her cheats/UR.***
Well Surya was an easy target! She & her mother were "the outsider" in > ways > one! She wasn't one of their "ICE PRINCESSES!" It got ugly @ X's; commentators prob. not realizing how offensive they were when speaking of Bonaly! I agree she skated >er later on; "when she wanted to!" After her Achilles tendon tear in '96 & subsequent return to the ice in '97, she was a last min. replacement @ the Japan Open! ...She was quite smooth & graceful as a matter of fact & almost brought tears to my eyes after her LP! Katarina Witt prob. wasn't happy an injured Surya could outdo her perf. "Don't Cry For Me Argentina!" It "broke her face" to see such low scores, but doing one 3-Toe wasn't going to get her out of the scoring cellar!
- - www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDyIeZ-gAUA - - Tech. Prgrm
- www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZA4myKJElU&t=103s - Art. Prgrm
***I have a feeling the judges were giving Surya some credit in the LP for having prob. her best skate in yrs there & for having the guts to go for that content = if they weren’t fully clean. '95 Worlds LP is my personal go-to performance for Surya from her eligible days.***
...She debut it after '94 Worlds @ the yearly "Hershey's Kisses Skate" extravaganza! It was in that skate of '95 @ the Euro. CHP. she not only sqirreled a 3-Lutz/3T combo, near the end she came around doing footwork into her 2nd 3-Lutz! Few, if any were doing that @ the X! Now it's passe!
***Yuzuru never said he would def. go for the 3rd Olympics. Never clearly anyway.***
Call me a neg. nelly, but if he did go, it'd prob. be only a symbolic appearance! Yuz was lucky to have won twice when his 2 top comps flamed out; Patrick Chan in his LP in Sochi, then Nathan Chen in his SP (from Hell) in PyeongChang! Yuzuru w/b sporting Silver instead of GOLD if you want t/b honest! By '22, he'll need to pull out > luck!
***...And nope, regard< of what his opps do, in the end, it was his own demons to defeat @ the Olympics. He overcame his demons & those achievements were X<.***
I'm still trying to understand how much the judges cut the legs from under Liu @ Nat'ls! WTF? Those scores were ridiculously low! She's possibly the future of US women's figure skating! So far she appears t/b the only one that can compete tech. w/ the Russians & Japanese! I thought the idea was to encourage not discourage the talent! That was bogus! 4TH? ;-(
ReplyDelete***Yuzuru uses the same entry B4 his 3A for his 4A (= though it was << but he did not fall so thank God) "3 turn (RBI) CW - 2 turn (RFO) CW - change edge"
- https://twitter.com/roselinewinte10/status/1475106703766999042?s=20 -
His 4A attempt was 75 cm in ht., 3.10 m in length:
- https://twitter.com/yuuzuuwu/status/1475079090151440385?s=20 -
He was quite exhausted after his free skate though:
- https://twitter.com/hanyuslegacy/status/1475084441928273929?s=20 -***
I'm shocked! I don't think this is going to end pretty! Hanyu's pushing himself to the limit trying to + > quads; now a Q A'l? This is like Fed in tennis thinking he can compete @ Wimbl. @ age 40 vs kids making the game = > grueling > his "hay day!" He started brk'n down over a yr. ago, but insists on trying comebacks @ his adv. age! The delusion's real! It c/b the same here eventual; a lot sooner > likely!
***Dude, he was just tired after his free skate. Anyone w/b exhausted after a 4 min skate w/ that many quads, spins, footwork. Nobody's denying the age. We are all aging day by day. It's Yuzuru's body. He's the best judge of what it can do. He's prudent in not trying a 4Lz or a 4R. He still believes he can do the 4A. Let him try if that's what he wants. I'm afraid that he may miss the opp. to win a 3rd OG. He lost too many pts. on the 4A @ Nat'ls. Any clean triple will get > pts > that. Anyway, it's his life. I don't agree w/ the comparison w/ Fed @ age 40 either.***
Whatever; just my thoughts & observations! He's only going t/b hurting > w/ recovery X lessened in an Olympic season! It's right on pt. w/ Fed who's brk'n down & pretty much WD from comp. after comp. this past season! I think we're finally rid of him after his dismal showing @ Wimbl.! You don't get >er @ 40 or 41; same w/ FS or Plushenko still w/b leading the Russian team!
***...When Hanyu was 17 his lips would turn blue @ the end of FS & @ 18-21 he'd collapse on the ice. Believe it or not, but he actually seems < winded @ the end of the FS these days > a few yrs ago. Dude prob. hasn't slept any btw the SP & FS, doing a dozen interviews.***
***I'm over Jason Brown. I think he's a lovely skater & seems like a very nice person, but his skating doesn't excite me any>.***
ReplyDeleteExcitement wasn't going to get the job done anyway! Jason doesn't have the tech. ability to compete these days! Our own FS Assoc. is doing a deservice to him & the team when they pump him up w/ scores that aren't nearly in line w/ what he laid out on the ice! Other countries do the same, but it was almost embarrassing seeing his scores making him 4th w/ 1 missed quad while others are spinning out of their minds!
***I really enjoy his skating & recall a lot of his performances. Many of the guys that do quads are not all that interesting. Quads just did not happen for him & he shouldn't be mocked for this, IMHO.***
Who's mocking? These are facts! I can watch him perform Schindler's List over & over, but he isn't going to win anything w/ it! Nathan Chen crushed the field for the OG Medal in FS! "Congrats Nathen!"
***We can't really know what Hanyu's thinking was. I think it's very hard to put ourselves in the minds of high-profile champions who are under tremendous pressure & high expectations from themselves & from others.***
I think if he had gotten over the obsession of that silly 4A, he would've @ least made the podium! He blew it!
***I dont think champions are happy just to make a podium. A Silver or Bronze would still be yet another defeat by Nathan. He said he knew his tech content was not enough to beat Nathan, so what was left to him was the chance to break a new barrier. M/b he still will. I remember viscerally how many hard falls Mirai had to take B4 she could land a clean 3A (which she only did a few X's in comp.). I'd think that not his age, but the beating he put himself through to get the 4A could acct. for his not seeming t/b in peak form this wk. I can't = imagine.
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I often wondered, after his mistake on the 4S in the SP & again in the LP if the 4A had become a distraction. Also, when he said in the past (after the Nat'ls) that his current layout was not enough to win. I assume he meant to beat Nathan. It almost sounds like he didn't believe that he could beat Nathan. He didn't = try to change that Layout. That's very unusual for Yuzuru b/c I always saw him as a very confident person.***
'22 FS World Chp. on! I wonder how relevant they'll end up being as Russians & Belarusians weren't allowed to compete? The USA won a GOLD in Pairs; 1st since '75 so it appears t/b tainted! The US women are doing very well today w/o the best in the WORLD being there! Alysa Lui took Bronze Medal w/ Mariah Bell in 4th! UNO won the men's event! Zhou took Bronze!
***Hi everyone, new to the website but have been a fig. skating fan since I 1st saw Dorothy Hamill. ...b/c of Nathan winning the OGM, my interest has picked up again. I love Mariah too!***
Welcome! As an old geezer of 65, I apprec. skating still, but haven't been as emotionally invested as I was back in the 90's! You had so many "real characters" out there to spice it up! It's quite vanilla these days w/ lit'l to no talk about what's going on behind the scenes! In my day you had Surya Bonaly doing backflips, Oksana Baiul being dramatic, Nancy Kerrigan getting knee-capped, animus btwn Plushenko & Yagudin, scandalous investigations, & countless TV exhs. & comps.! Again, welcome & hope you get all you can out of the site & watching skating!
***Omg, how could you forget the Goddess that was Pasha Grishuk & the whole Usova/Zhulin/Navka/Platov/partner-& coach-switching malarkey.***
Who said I forgot? I can't name everyone of interest; w/b here all day! Skating had so much going on, but we don't hear much any>! There's no entertainment value about how Zhulin cheated or abused Maya! I prefer to forget!
***Music You Hate in Skating?***
ReplyDeleteI'm easy to pls when it comes to the music! I can have a repore w/ just about anything from Plushenko's intro-season w/ JM Jarre's "new age" (sound effects) to a classic like "Swan Lake" which didn't bother me! I have few objections if it's choreographed well, but can do w/o CARMEN ever being performed again! Men, Ladies, & Pairs have overused that one over the decades! No fan of American Men using showtunes for their SP's! It's usually too cutsie & meant t/b! I just found it a phony/cheat way to show energy & connect w/ the audience! Ilia Kulik used Gershwin w/ that silly giraff costume, but it was what brought about an Olympic winning perf. in '98!
***I shudder when a man has suspenders as part of his program. The man almost always starts the program by snapping them. Not a fan.
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Brown was one 3S instead of a 2S away from 4th overall over 3 clean-, one "q"- and one "<"- quad Yuzuru Hanyu & a 2 clean-, 1 "<"-quad Cha in Beijing. Only 5 Men who placed below him didn't have quads in the SP, & only 3 didn't have quads in the FS, & some had X quads in the FS, yet he placed >er > they. His FS in the Men's Event was 12+ >er > Zhou's 1 clean-, 1 "q", 2 "<"-quad FS in the Team Event. They didn't win anything either.
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I wish that there were good pro skating comps. that focused on things other than jumps. At the peak of pro skating in the U.S., it got a bit crazy. There were almost too many events. But, it w/b > if people like Jason & Nathan & Hanyu had events to compete in. Btw injuries, age & focusing on college, doing tons of difficult jumps isn't realistic for these guys, but they still could put out programs that fans would enjoy. I don't think we've seen all that Jason has to offer artistically & we might see some = >er programs if he didn't have to do so many jumps.***
There are plenty of tours Jason can sign up to mesmerize the masses, but real comp. s/b behind him!
***Yes. I recognize that his jump content isn't quite up to par by today's standards. But I enjoy his performances so much > most of the multi-quad skaters. And I'm sad that we won't be able to see him skate very often any> once he makes it official. Opps. to watch skating beyond comp. are virtually nonexistent in the U.S., aside from SOI. There are tours, but not here.***
***I think raising the age is the best thing the sport of FSkt.'ns done in a long X.***
ReplyDeleteAll I'd was SMH 2 yrs. ago as Russian skaters got younger & younger; malnourished w/ a short shelf-life! It was shocking to see how fast Alina Zagitova disappeared after a > season! She just fell off a cliff barely able to keep up w/ the next wave of kids their program abused over the yrs! The tech. used to propel those tiny bodies was systematically brk'n them down IMO! I'd stopped watching as > skate'n after Asado & Kim Yuna era! It started w/ Evgenia Medvedeva who was anointed future queen of the ice! AZ pulled a "Tara" who stole Nagano from Kwan back in '98! It came down to that 1 combo that the Vets wouldn't = try thinking their artistic maturity would go further > doing extreme jumps! It was a repeat; includ. the inevitable that Alina wasn't going to last! M/b raising the age limits will stop the cycle!
***Tara & Johnny >xN Ashley Wagner as comms., but the lot of them suck. Will also forever laugh @ defenders of Wagner's commentary on social media being like "you hate her!!" Then tearing down T&J & saying things like how Scott Hamilton made sex & constipation noises. Three of the least empathetic & > abhorrent personalities I've had the displeasure of listening to. ...Dick Button is GOAT.***
I can only go by what I've seen & heard, but I've already cut back my need to watch FS events to begin w/ these days! If I had to deal w/ that self-entitled brat, Wagner I'd be done, done, done! Even though no fan of Kwan, Wagner always seemed the > spoiled of mean girls in her era that cared lit'l for other people's feelings! She was gifted Nagasu's spot on the Oly. team of '14 & lobbied for it tbd again in '18 = though behind Mirai's scores both X's!