Novak Djokovic
Djokovic is a Serbian pro tennis player who's been ranked World #1 in men's singles by the ATP 428 wks. He's considered 1 of the greatest players of all time. Coached to best results by former Slovak player Marián Vajda. Parting in '17, back in '18; leaves '22. G. Ivanisevic brought in '19, then out again in '24! Zimonji in '24! - - - (Comments?) ;-)
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| French Open 2016 - Completes Nole-Slam |
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| 24 Majors - (72 Bigs) - (99 Title wins) & counting |
per Wiki: Djokovic has won 24 Grand Slam singles titles, the most in men's history, & held the #1 spot in the ATP rankings for a total of 428 wks. In majors, Djokovic has won an all-time rec. 10 Aussie Open titles, including an Open Era rec. 3 cons. titles twice; '11–13, then '19-21 (the only player). He's won 7 Wimbledon titles, 4 USOs, & 3 French Opens titles. In 2016, he became the 8th player to achieve the CGS by winning the '16 FO; accomp. again @ '21 FO & '23 FO. Djokovic the 3rd man to hold all 4 Major titles at once, the 1st since Laver in '69, & the 1st ever on 3 diff. surfaces (HC, Clay, & Grass; the 6th man to win GS & Slam Singles title on all the surfaces). He's overtaken Sampras for his 8th YE #1 Ranking: 3 > Federer, Nadal, & Connors. ;-)
Nole (The Master) - - - Tribute (Pt.1) & (Pt.2)
Update: Novak took Olympic Gold def. Alcaraz to be the 3rd male to complete & achieve the Golden CS behind Agassi & Nadal & a Career Super Slam w/ Agassi! ;-)
Djokovic's won the ATP World Tour Finals 7 times (4 cons., a rec.) & holds the best match winning rate (83.7 %) in Open Era, as of Nov. 2023. Nole owns the all-time record of 40 Masters 1000 series titles; 4 > Nadal. Djokovic's records incl. breaking the single-season rec. w/ 6 titles in 2015, winning 31 cons. ATP World Tour Masters 1000 series matches, playing the finals at all 9 ATP Masters 1000 tourneys (shared w/ Federer & Nadal), & the only player to win 9 of the 9 events @ least twice (GM).
Djokovic leads Serbia to win Inaugural ATP Cup over Nadal/Spain in Sidney in 2020!
- - Novak Djokovic: Wiki - - - ATP World Tour - Novak Djokovic - - - ITF - Djokovic - -
Nole's my new fave player, on par w/ Lendl! He had to play "2nd fiddle" to Borg, McEnroe, & Connors 40+ years ago! Both were #1 while opposed on all sides! Fedal's fading as Djoker #'s in the Rec. Bk. supplanting them; H2H rivalries, Majors, Masters, & %!
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| 7 YEC's & counting; '08, 4 straight '12-15, '22-23 |
Current News: #6 Djokovic skips ATP Final! Alcaraz def. by Zverev in RR Play! Sinner knocks Medvedev out in straight sets! ;-)
From 2015 -
ReplyDelete***Some Nole history:
1st player to win the first 3 Masters 1000 tournaments to start the year
1st player to win AO and 1st 3 Masters 1000 tournaments
1st player to win 6 straight tournaments that are 1000 and above (Paris, WTF, AO, IW, Miami, MC)
Masters titles since 2011 - Djokovic = 18; Federer + Nadal + Murray = 18
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Last year Nole didn't play in Madrid alleging that he had a wrist injury so we'll see how they treat him after last season's controversy w/ Dimitrov, but I'm not sure if he wants to play there.***
So reminiscent of Lendl's tenure as #1! Players like McEnroe and Connors could berate officials, have a tantrum on court, & belittle the tour, but they were always cheered while Lendl dealt with boo's and just went about his business winning and establishing himself as one of the greats of the game!
***Djokovic's only opponents are himself and the pressure now.***
That's been the case since the beginning! From years ago, he was a solid #3 who rarely lost to unheralded players and was his own worst enemy when he was favored to win a title! He may not acquire the record # of majors or have a great run of wins at 1 of the top 2; Wimbledon & USO! Federer has the major title record along w/ 2 huge runs at those majors that can't be surpassed by a current rival like Nadal! Rafa owns the FO like no other player since Borg; taking on all comers where most top players skipped this clay major to participate in WTT and WCT events in past eras; supposedly kept Connors from completing calendar year Slam in '74! Nole has a lot going for him; playing well within himself, grounded w/ a family, has a great team, and seems to be the fittest he could ever be! He doesn't have to win much else for the rest of the season just to hold onto #1 ranking, but he looks to be carving out a better season than he had in '11!
***...Come on, it's ok that you are a hard Novak's fan, but the facts are facts and you should be very happy for what is going on these days before some things change.***
It's not as much being a fan, but feeling that this is NOLE's time! Even holding tons of records, having great seasons, he's still holding the bags for Roger and Rafa! I ranted yesterday comparing Lendl's career and lack of fan affection while maniacs like Nastase, Connors, and McEnroe were the faces of the tour! There's just no justice when Novak can surpass his '11 season and most people and so called experts will invoke Roger and Rafa before him; no matter how far they fall in the rankings!
Nole's never had extended stays off the tour like other players of this era; sorta like the way I feel about Serena and Venus playing part time for so many years! They will say there was injury, tragedy, and other interests, but I have a real problem w/ breaks in careers! Navratilova never did it, but her namesake Hingis is trying another comeback in Fed Cup and is winning doubles' majors after all these years! Some will get grief for it and some won't!
***Of course Nole never (until today) had extended stays off the tour b/c he never has had an injury (discomfort's different story), but unfortunately not everyone has that good luck, you should ask Delpo, Muzz, Tsonga, Monfils, Haas and many other players who has been off the court for long periods and how much those injuries have hurt their careers; not just their game, but also their mind and confidence. No one likes to be off, but sometimes they don't have any option - Rafa was 7 months off because the doctors told him take very serious care of his knee otherwise it could be the end of his career. He decided to do it and at the present, his knee seems to be in good conditions.***
Nole over Rafa - 7 straight wins - '11 IW to '12 AO
ReplyDelete- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10iNxobZOxc - IW '11
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL7jjTPZrnQ - Miami '11
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWkozzN161I - Madrid '11
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0dDL0Jzknk - Rome '11
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQOVmKmPAAo - Wimbledon '11
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eQM5PaQHb0 - USO '11
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInQVyVaAfI - AO '12
***I look back when it was big news for Federer to drop a set, then it was matches. Pretty much deja-vu w/ Rafa on clay. There's a Hell of a lot riding on RG for Nadal. Djokovic is the superior player and it kind of feels like the last bastion much like Wimbledon was for Federer in '08.
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...the other side of the coin is this: although Nole looks strong now, he still may not have too many more chances to win Paris, esp. if Rafa gets taken out by the Unknown Soldier.***
Playing like this, Rafa may not even make it out of the early rds! No doubt he'll play hard, but people see he's vulnerable! If someone as blasé as F3 can beat him twice on his beloved surface, where else is there to go but down; and down hard?
***Fiero, I pumped my fist and yelled when Fognini won MP. - Rafa's defending 1000 points in Madrid, and 500 for Rome as defending runner-up. Quite a contrast from the 0 points he was defending at Barcelona.***
Let's just see how he does in Madrid and Rome! Federer was patient and waited for an "unknown soldier" to take out Nadal for him! Heaven knows he wasn't going to win that FO on his own; got the help he needed! Hopefully someone will be as accommodating for Nole to grease his path to his career GS w/ only Cinci. his last hurdle to complete his resume and the record books!
***I agree that Nole better win it this year. No matter how exceptional a player is, past 30, a GS win is rarity. Federer's still 2nd in the world at 33, however he's won only 1 major in the last 4 years. - Exactly this, Wafa has visibly declined on clay and on hards he's unwatchable currently. It's not big news anymore that Nadal lost in a clay tourney. Last time he won all 3 of them was in 2012. Even in '11 he blinked in the SF. All it takes is a sublime performance and a bad day from Djokovic. I'm not saying Nadal is invincible there, but up until now he blinked only once, and that was an anomaly. ***
...Sampras was never this dominant! I didn't think anyone would come close to what Federer could do in a single season, but Nole's threatening it!
***That's not really true. Sure, Fed has never had a start like this, but he's certainly "ruled" in a similar manner for periods of equal time, even longer. By my calculations, the very best seasons in the Open Era are:
Laver '69: 4 Slams, 18 titles
Connors '74: 3 Slams, 15 titles 93-4 (96%)
McEnroe '84: 2 Slams, Masters Cup & WCT, 13 titles, 82-3 (96%)
Federer '06: 3 Slams, WTF, 5 Masters, 12 titles, 92-5 record (95%)
Djokovic '11: 3 Slams, 5 Masters, 10 titles, 70-6 (92%)
There are a few more in there worth considering: Vilas' disputed '77, Borg's '80, Wilander's 3-Slam '88, a couple of Sampras' years, Roger's 2004-05 & '07, & Rafa's '10 and '13, etc. But those are the top 5, IMO.***
I well know all about these greats seasons; I watched them all LIVE! W/ Vilas I have to put an asterisk behind his name b/c for the most part, he was still "owned" by Borg; playing lower level clay events to get ready for the big shows at The FO where Borg didn't play and Forest Hills, the last year of the USO at that location!
***...By the time Rafa hit his prime Roger was already out of his and we had not seen the true rise of Djokovic or even Murray. Rafa before 2011 had 9 slams. So in essence Rafa won most of his slams by age 24 and w/ just 1 major force to deal w/ (Roger) which he obviously did great in dealing w/. Interestingly enough Roger won just 4 slams before Rafa won his 1st RG. Rafa has owned Roger H2H and that accts for almost all the difference in the stats.***
ReplyDeleteThose lost MP's saved by Nole in cons. USO semi's has to wear on Roger after all these yrs! Roger has also been a thorn in Nole's side in Dubai and his worst defeat coming in '11 FO semi when he was on a 41 match winning streak! - There are so many things he's on the precipice of achieving including a career GS, winner of all Masters' events, & Masters leaders in titles all time!
***I know Nole has had quite a few of those matches where he seemed on his way out only to find some extra something to pull it out and win it at the end: the matches vs Federer at USO those 2 yrs, against Tsonga in Paris, against Murray in China are the most memorable to me.***
Was that China or Shanghai where Nole saved a MP against Andy w/ a "tweener?" It was fantastic!
***So far, which Djokovic has had the better season leading up to the FO; the 2011 or 2015 version? I'm coming to the point where I think it's a toss up. Djokovic has seemed invincible since March, even when he drops a set. You just feel that he controls the match no matter what his opponent does.***
That's a very good question! Which is more impressive; undefeated until FO in 2011 with a 41 match winning streak or this season? I'll put in my bid that this season's run is more impressive w/ so many other good competitors out there; including some "young guns" like Kei, Milos, & Kyrgios!
***Nole himself thinks he's playing better this year than in '11. To me: 2015 has been more impressive than '11 honestly, j/b he had to deal w/ a lot more off court stuff this year than in '11. In '11, he didn't know any better: just play and win. He might have sneaked up on a lot of players in 2011, but it is impossible to do in 2015 as everybody is gunning for him. This year he played DC so it is more impressive what he has been able to achieve this year, trying to incorporate traveling w/ a little baby, wife & 2 dogs. If he doesn't win 3 majors this year, then '11 will remain his best year, but as for up to now: 2015 it is.
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There's been talk of how it's harder for Novak to get into the tennis recordbooks, but there are a few highly realistic targets that Novak can aim for that no one has ever done before; over the next year.
- As people have mentioned today, Novak has just passed Fed for Masters titles; 3 behind Rafa. A very doable record there - he could achieve it over the next year. And by the end of his career, he could have a # of Masters titles records that will stand for a very, very long time.
- He needs 2 more Masters titles this year to solely hold the record he currently shares w/ Nadal, Laver and Connors for most Masters in 1 season.
- 1st player to win all 9 Masters events - if he can win Cinci.
- 1st player in history to win all of the 'big 15' tourneys in tennis - all 4 GS's, all 9 Masters, WTFs and Olympic singles gold - he's 3 titles away from this - RG, Cinci and Olympics. Nadal is 4 away - he needs Miami, Shanghai, Paris, & WTFs. Fed needs MC, Rome and Olympics. I think we'd all agree that whilst Fed or Rafa achieving this feat seems like a long shot, Djokovic achieving it seems reasonably likely.
And of course there are the things that others have done, but very few:
- The Career Slam - still something only 7 guys have ever done.
- Career Golden Slam - if he can win Olympics next year. Only 2 guys have done it.
- Calendar Slam - still a realistic possiblity if he can win RG - only 2 guys have ever done it.
- 12 cons. Masters 1000 final wins.***
***Right now Novak seems invincible. - As I've said before, in my "generational theory," tennis gens last roughly 5 yrs and can best be defined by birth years ending on a 9 and a 4. So for instance, Rafa, Novak & Andy are in the 1984-88 gen; Nishikori, Raonic, and Dimitrov are in the 1989-93 gen. - a gen. which begins w/ Nishikori ('89) and ends w/ Jiri Vesely and Dominic Thiem (both '93). - Now consider that players seem to be peaking a bit later these days. Djokovic was in the top 10 by the X he was around 20, but didn't reach his peak until he was 23-24 in '11. Andy's trajectory was about a year later. In this regard, Nadal is a bit of an outlier or a throw-back to an earlier era. We can also look at players like Berdych, Ferrer, & Wawrinka who are having their best years in their late 20s, even early 30s. So we could look at a player like Dimitrov, who just turned 24, and hope that he can get a bit better, but probably not much more.
ReplyDeleteI think things could start getting interesting in '17, when Novak and Andy turn 30 and you have Nishikori, Raonic, & Dimitrov "ripe on the vine" - past the pt of hungry into starvation. A 23-yo Grigor Dimitrov looks anemic versus a 27-yo Novak Djokovic, but how will it look when Grigor is 26 and Nole 30? So all 3, and perhaps 1 or 2 others of their generation c/b perpetual dark-horse candidates to upset the top guys. But then you have players like Kyrgios, Coric, and others coming more fully into their own.
By the X we get to 2018, we'll be seeing a regime change w/ the possible emergence of a new superstar or 2 that year. Certainly by '19, Novak's unlikely to remain the top-dog. But I suspect he'll hang around the top 5 for another year or 3, not unlike Roger once he hit his 30s. - Nole has been dominant in Oz, but not in the way that Ralf has been at RG. Rafa is 1 AO away from having a double career Slam. Roger is of course a FO chp short. If Novak doesn't complete at least a career slam, but matches Ralf's count, then it w/b a no (IMO).***
Some, esp. McEnroe put Rafa in the GOAT position, not only for his wins in Majors, but his dominance of Roger! That's 1 thing that will help Nole; close to surpassing Roger and Rafa H2H as well as in Masters! Only time will tell if he can get closer in Majors, but IMO, he's already there b/c he has so much more in him! If he takes that FO title, he'll definitely have arrived! Federer's '09 FO settled some of the argument about being Rafa's pigeon!
***Who w/b the man Nole would least want to face in the final - if he gets there, and Rafa doesn't?***
I'll have to stick to the most obvious candidate to upset Nole; Roger! Even on clay he has a chance if he plays his game and attacks the net, serves lights out, and frustrates Nole! It happened in 2011 when Djokovic was still undefeated at 42 matches! There was the added pressure of that, but it was still on clay! Roger obviously has a mental thing going on which caused Nole to drop serve twice at Wimbledon last season trying to wrap it up in 4; couldn't do it! The problem is I don't think Roger will get a sniff of another final; even seeded #2! He has to get past so many young guns who are hungry and see he's vulnerable in his aging state of decay!
***Even though I'm a fan, I don't see Roger defeating Novak at RG. The key differential btw them is in baseline rally play. You can't totally avoid baseline game, esp. on clay. Novak outscored Roger about 3 to 1 in the baseline war in Rome final.***
I don't think it's going to happen; question was "who would Nole least like to meet in the final?"
***Rafa plays tomorrow at 3.30 local time... Mercedes Cup: Stuttgart 250***
ReplyDeleteIDK how Nadal's supposed to get past these players on grass w/ his confidence in such turmoil? He has to contend w/ Bags tomorrow, then the winner of Haas and Tomic w/ Monfils in his 1/2 of the draw! I'll be truly impressed if he makes if he makes it to the final! I may have to wake up early to catch this!
***It's a tune-up and the idea is to get his grass feet. He doesn't have to get past all of them or even win it. The confidence will come w/ match wins. I'm pretty sure he's playing another tune-up too.***
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The "Big 4" per era:
1970's - Borg, Connors, Nastase, Gerulaitis (w/ a touch of Ashe, Vilas, & McEnroe)
1980's - McEnroe, Lendl, Connors, Wilander (splash of Cash, Becker, & Edberg)
1990's - Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Becker (mention Chang, Rafter, & Philippoussis)
2000's - Agassi, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic (sprinkling of Murray, Nalbandian, & Davydenko)
2010's - Djokovics, Nadal, Federer, Murray (fillers of Wawrinka, Nishikori, & Raonic)
Just OTTH! What are your choices if old enough to remember?
***B/c you added Wilander in the 80s Big 4, you can be my new best friend.***
He was the 1st of the top players to go "down under" on a regular basis, winning it 3 X's; twice on grass! Wilander also won 3 FO when Lendl was "The Man" in his prime! He also did something we're waiting to happen w/ Rafa; make consecutive USO's, winning 1 over Lendl in '88 as he took 3 of the 4 majors that season! He made it to the QF of Wimbledon several X's IIRC which is impressive in itself! I always see him as someone who should go out in the 1st round like he did against some hard-hitting, Tiriac phenom named Slobodan Živojinović! He reminds me of Rafa so much; just an annoyance that made you hit several winners to take a single point! He drove Lendl insane on more than a few occasions and depressed his record when he was favored in '85 FO, '88 USO & Masters, '83 AO!
***Btw them, the 'Big 4' have won 37 of the last 41 men's major singles titles; '05 FO - '15 FO. They have also won 10 of the previous 12 WTF, w/ Federer winning 6 and Djokovic 4. They have regularly occupied the top 4 places in the year-end rankings btw '08 and '13, w/ Murray being the only member not to have been ranked #1, having reached a career high #2 on several occasions.
Of the 4, Federer leads w/ a record 17 GS titles followed by Nadal (14), Djokovic (8) and Murray (2). Federer and Nadal have completed a Career Grand Slam by winning each of the 4 Majors at least once, w/ Nadal also winning a Gold medal at '08 Olympics for a Career Golden Slam. Thus far Djokovic has not won the FO. Murray has won neither the FO nor the AO despite reaching the final 4 X's in Melbourne, but won the gold medal at the 2012 Olympics. Furthermore, at ATP Masters 1000 tournaments, Nadal leads w/ a record 27 titles, followed by Djokovic (24), Federer (23), & Murray (10).***
***Here's a crazy stat. Since 2011 Novak has won 19 of 41 Masters; 19 of 37 played in - that's more than 1/2! Can we say that Novak is Master of the Masters?***
ReplyDeleteThat's the record that NOLE will OWN after all is said and done! Rafa and Roger near the end while Nole's about to zoom past them both; H2H and in the Masters' count! That will be 1 thing solidly listed under his name as a record!
***In fairness one would expect him to end ahead of Roger in the h2h given the age gap, but so far the old fart is holding up his side of that bargain pretty well.
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...if Novak passes Rafa in the H2H, it will also have been past Nadal's prime, as well as when he passes him in MS count, which seems a certainty. Currently: Nadal has 27 W v 14 L; Federer 24 W v 18 L; Djokovic 24 W v 10 L. Nole is all but certain to get the "box set" when he finally gets Cincy. Roger and Rafa each are missing 2, w/ Rafa still having an outside chance at Miami. So as to Master of the Masters, I think it'll be Nole.
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...So you could say: Vines > Hoad > Safin > Nalbandian > Monfils > Gulbis - They're different orders of ability and accomplishment, but all 6 players were viewed as being more talented than their actual results would entail.***
I've elevated Safin to "great" status even w/o superior results! Even though he underachieved, he had it all except what it took tw the ears! He also reached #1 in the world, won 2 majors, and destroyed his opposition when "ON" his game! He eviscerated Sampras in 2000 USO final! OTTH, IDK much about Vines, but HOAD was reputed to be very good; at 1 X being 8-0 over Laver and reached #1 as well! If not for his playboy antics, marrying at 21, going into the army, and wanting to be a regular guy, he might have a bigger name in the game!
***Hoad gets a bad rap on this board if he's being compared to Safin and boys like him. According to fellers who played him, and who watched, Lew Hoad was a giant. It isn't his fault the game wasn't codified the way it is now. He just went out there and played who he played, and was the best at it according to many who'd seen him; includ. Frew McMillan, who, as late as 2001 said that Lew Hoad was "certainly the greatest of the greats that I have seen..."
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Only 24 matches lost from 2004-2007 by Federer. That's absolutely nuts. Another record of Fed's that's not gonna be broken anytime soon.***
Really? I guess I need to go look up the record! When it comes to near PERFECTION; I think BORG! Over a 4 year period, "24" w/b a lot of losses for him! In his PRIME, even though he played a defensive style, he only lost "here and there;" almost negligibly! He single-handedly stopped Connors from winning 3 or 4 more Wimbledons, almost never lost to other top baseliners like Vilas, The Bagel Twins (Solomon/Dibbs), Gerulaitis, Orantes, and Nastase! That's what made it so criminal when the ATP gave him a hard X about taking some X off! He had to be mentally exhausted and being pulled in so many directions b/c "HE WAS TENNIS" from '78-81! What other sport does such a thing; actually cut it's own throat and wrote an awful ep. in it's history?
***Don't forget that Johnny Mac stole the crown from Bjorn in '81, so Borg's reign was more accurately '78-80, or mid '81 (Wimbledon).
Borg's best 4-year span was 1977-80. Take a look:
'77: 76-7
'78: 70-7
'79: 84-6
'80: 70-6
'81: 35-6
So Borg was 300-26 during 1977-80, just shy of Roger's 315-24.***
Well make me a liar then! Nice to know I was close!
Over the lst 2 yrs:
ReplyDelete#1. Djokovic
12 titles & 3 finals - 11 MS1000 & GS
#2. Federer
9 titles & 8 finals - 2 MS1000
#3. Murray
6 titles & 2 finals - 1 MS1000
#4. Wawrinka
6 titles & 0 finals - 3 MS 1000 & GS
***Federer's the legit #2 even based on your more specific criteria of Slams & Masters 1000's.***
It's a tenuous #2 that is very close to collapsing into itself! He must get back to this Wimbledon final, then defend those summer pts! The last X I looked, even though he's #2, looking at this year alone, he's more #4 and hasn't qualified for the WTF!
***...I would say the same thing to those who believe Rafa never lost a match due to injury.***
Who ever doubted that? For the most part, the more obnoxious fans of Nadal will say "the only X Rafa loses is due to injury!" Heaven knows when winning a point, he's running like a deer, "drum majoring" around the court, but if run like a chicken w/ his head cut off, the next winning shot against him is accompanied by him holding the back of his thigh; then a distinct limp! Some say the same of Nole! Federer's normally above that type of gamesmanship!
***Of course the most obnoxious Nadal fans think that. My post was referring to the opposite bunch, the Nadal injury deniers.
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In 2002 Sampras was ranked #13 in the World, and retired later that year. You saying Ralf is about to go the same way?***
Nyah, Rafa isn't that smart! Sampras had gone over 2 yrs w/o winning a title by that X! After he had won his last Wimbledon in 2000, it wasn't until he caught fire at 2002 USO that he looked like his old self, blasting serves past all comers! Luckily his fave pigeon was waiting in the final and he took Agassi out in 4 sets! His ranking had dropped to #22 before the USO, but was seeded #17! That #13 year end ranking was a gift and he left the game while the "getting was good!" lol! Rafa will hang around longer I'm sure, probably having a lot of commitments and endorsements he's not willing to drop! More power to him! I'll have a separate tape handy to record the humiliations!
***Rafa is ranked 10th and hasn't won as many Wimbos, or even come close in 5 years. Pete had won it as recently as 2000, and was the 7X champ. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Rafa finds himself off the show courts at least once. - Rafa's nowhere near retiring. If he was at that stage, he wouldn't have bothered to come back. Next year is the Olympics, I can't see any of the top players retiring before that happens.
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14 GS titles, only player who has a career h2h record over the recent top 30, including twice as many wins over defeats over the beloved "GOAT" of his generation. Yeah, that young fella isn't "Smart"***
So you're 1 of those people who equate physical prowess to intellect? I'll have you know, Borg was thought a genius, when in fact he read comic books and slept an inordinate amount of X! His brand of tennis was every bit, if not more debilitating to him mentally and physically due to the inferior equipment utilized! He didn't go out of his way for intellectual stimulation of any kind; actually breaking up his 1st marriage b/c he'd rather stay home when Mariana wanted to go out and "boogie!" Rafa's been a pro since 15 IIRC and after all this X, his English is about as bad as some who've never left their village of birth! This guy has been around the world many X's over and I don't think he's grown in the least! The other players I see it all the time; Nole, Roger, and others are brain surgeons in comparison! Sorry, but that's how I see it!
***No, I am a guy who has an IQ over 165, ...and currently get my ass kicked on weekends by teenagers and ex-college players at USTA tourneys. My point is to be a top ranked player, it takes more than physical prowess to beat the so called smart players consistently. IMO***
***...Although Fed managed to win the 2nd set (esp. impressed w/ the 2 set pts that he saved off Novak's serve), if he had to struggle that hard just to stay in the match. Almost all of us expected that there will be a let down and he'll lose the 3rd set. Once he loses the 3rd set, we know he will lose the match; as the only way to win the match would be in 5.***
ReplyDeleteEven though I think Nole's the man, I'm so glad he's not my fave! He's either the unluckiest guy out there where an opponent gets all the breaks and doesn't miss on a "big point," or he has these "walkabouts" losing a set when ahead and X chances to close it out! I know no one's going to believe I make predictions close to the end of a match! At the '11 USO and '12 AO I thought Nole would get a break in the 3rd and 4th sets respectively and have a chance to serve it out! We all know what happened both X's; lost his serve, then the TB and had to close it out in the next set! At AO he was lucky enough to come back from a break 'down' in the 5th; Nadal's luck finally ran out! This happens to Nole too much for me to have him as a fave; I'd "lose it" when he drops a set when "WAY AHEAD" again and again! Roger shb toast in str. sets but for Nole's meltdown and "walkabout" w/ 6 set pts in the 2nd!
***...How often does a player break back after getting broken. I guarantee you Novak is at the top of that list in the entire Open era. He's absolutely phenomenal at doing that. I've seen it X and X again.***
I guess you're right! It's just so bizarre to see happen so often w/ all the "props" Nole's gotten on improving his serve! There are these strange happenings w/ 30 and 40 love points; a miss of some sort, then the next thing a player's fighting for his life to hold! It happened w/ Nole at 30-love; missed a volley Roger hit "right at him" and it took 10 min. to wrap up that hold! lol! STUPID!
***You have to be good enough to get to major finals to lose it, so I don't really consider a sub-.500 mark or barely above it such a bad thing. The fact that these guys have been in so many finals may put the others in a bad light, but I would like to think it's just a testimony to how good the Big Three really are. Top 10 Grand Slam Finalists:
#1 Roger Federer 26 (17-9)
#2 Rafael Nadal 20 (14-6)
#3 Ivan Lendl 19 (8-11)
#4 Pete Sampras 18 (14-4)
#5 Rod Laver 17 (11-6)
#5 Novak Djokovic 17 (9-8)
#7 Ken Rosewall 16 (8-8)
#7 Bjorn Borg 16 (11-5)
#9 Bill Tilden 15 (10-5)
#9 Roy Emerson 15 (12-3)
#9 Jimmy Connors 15 (8-7)
#9 Andre Agassi 15 (8-7)***
Thx! Interesting!
***Novak's record in slam finals isn't "bad" per se. He still won 9 majors, but it's really not good. However, I realize who he had to play in many of these finals, so it's hardly disastrous. After all, you reach so many finals, you're going to lose many b/c ostensibly, the other guy who reached the final is pretty damn good as well. Until the recent Wawrinka final, Djokovic had only lost to Fed, Nadal and Murray in major finals. So yeah, you play in the era of the "Big 4," you'll lose to them in the finals occas.. ...That said, Novak has reached 17 finals. You'd expect a player of his caliber to be at least 11-6 or something like that. So yeah, I wouldn't say his record in finals is good. - FYI, Fed is #2.***
Before defending his Wimbledon pts, it was only a technicality! Murray has clearly been the 2nd best player of this season w/ a Masters win and finals to Nole in other tourneys! I hate saying that since I can't stand his game; as ugly as Rafa's IMO! I've been saying neither will last long, but Andy's at least doing a lot better than Nadal at the moment!
***The Future of the So Called 'Big 4' - The 'Big 4' stopped being 'it' in '13. That was the last X when 3 of the top 4 ended up clinching all the Slams (Djokovic AO, Nadal RG & USO & Murray Wimbledon). The following year we had 2 different winners - Wawrinka & Cilic. Only Nadal & Djokovic were able to win 1 Slam. This year so far it has been reduced to 1 top player only as Djokovic has won AO and Wimbledon. The other winner is Wawrinka. So clearly we see a gradual decline in top 4. So a brief look at these players' future. I'm just going to go by their ranking:
ReplyDelete1. Djokovic: reigns supreme. His confidence comes from the fact there's really no one out there to challenge him. Both Federer and Nadal are in decline and Murray was a threat, but that was 2 yrs ago. Who can stop him? More importantly, how many Slams for him? I can see 3 more, but who knows. Things change in tennis so quickly sometimes.
2. Federer: almost 34 yo and a father of 4. I'm not sure if he's still playing b/c he wants to win 1 more Slam so that he can go out like Sampras or doesn't feel he's finished yet. I do think in this weak era, w/ Nadal declining considerably and Murray still looking into finding his '12/'13 form. He feels he can compete at top level and maybe sneak in something.
3. Murray: not sure where he stands in all this. I feel he got comfortable after winning Wimbledon and unable to find the same drive. His new choice of coach is a big ??? for me. Of course we'll see in future what happens, but I don't see him winning a few Slams - maybe AO - unless he changes his mind. It's really all up to him.
4. Nadal: well, he's really not ranked #4, but he is/was a part of 'Big 4.' This 1 is so hard to call. Is he really declining or is he just lacking motivation? He came back so strong the past 2 X's, it's hard to write him off so quickly, but then again he's won 14 Slams and has a lot of mileage on those legs. Where does he go from here? Is he going to make one more comeback or is he going to go away forever?
I do think '16 will answer most of these questions as they simply can't go on forever. And there has to be a great player and a great rivalry in the making.
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I think that Novak will most likely win at least 1 (avg. of 2) Majors a year in the next few. Roger will have to hope for a good draw, his Final Opponent to be less than stellar, and hopes no one comes to his matches like Stan in the FO Finals. I agree w/ Andy -- I think winning Wimbledon snuffed out the fire in him and he's trying to find motivation. In a way, I think that not winning FO for these years have lit a fire under Novak's ass and fueled him to win; I also think that if he wins FO, you will see a decline in his play. Rafa needs 1) to get better. After every major injury T.O. he has for the past years, he's gone and played and won a lot and then he starts breaking down again. He needs to slow down and recuperate and not prematurely set himself up for more injury. 2) He needs someone else to guide him. I'm sure it'll be hard to fire Toni, but get a consultant for another POV.***
***Just a few records of Nole in '15:
ReplyDelete- Most match wins: Djokovic (48)
- Most Titles: Djokovic (6)
- Most Finals: Djokovic (8)
- Most SF's: Djokovic (8)
- Most Top 10 Wins: Djokovic (18)
- Most Bagels Served: Djokovic (10)
- Most Bread Sticks: Djokovic (17)
- Most GS Finals: Djokovic (3)
- Most GS Won: Djokovic (2)
- Most Masters Won: Djokovic (4)
Records by Novak in 1st 7 months of '15 season:
- Became the 1st man to win 5 AO titles in Open Era
- Became the 1st man to win the IW-Miami Double on 3 occasions
- Became the 1st man to win the opening 3 Masters 1000 titles of ATP season
- Became the 2nd man to beat Rafael Nadal @ Roland Garros
- Became the 1st man to beat Rafael Nadal at all 4 Slams
- Became the 1st man to defend his title at Wimbledon since Federer in '07
- Became the 1st man to record 17+ top 10 wins in a sn up to end of Wimbledon
- Became the 1st man to have earned 9500+ pts. in a sn up to end of Wimbledon***
Thanks!
***Yeah, no 'Big 4' any more. Novak is dominating the tour. It's impressive that he managed to win the AO, IW, Miami, MC, Rome, played the final at RG, and won Wimbledon again. Fed hasn't won a major since '12, Rafa is slamless, Murray is getting better, but is still not winning majors. Youngsters are nowhere to be found. - You think Murray will reach 60+ titles? He'd better get busy. Still 28 titles behind Vilas.
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If he gets over 50, and has 5 Slams I'll give him the nod.***
You're dreamin'! I'd put down anything that Murray won't get anywhere near that; esp. w/ the trajectory he's on now! He's regressed even if playing better! He's still playing a "STUPID," counter-punching game that won't win him much against the true elites! Someone mentioned he was more aggressive in '07 & '08; which is why I've been down on him and his accomplishments! There s/b so much more but for his defensive way of playing the game!
***...You think Murray will reach 60+ titles? He'd better get busy. Still 28 titles behind Vilas. - If Andy gets over 60, they will discover that few titles of Vilas did not get recorded in the books due to clerical error.***
It wouldn't be the 1st X! When Martina N. was approaching Evert's winning streak of 56, it came to light that 1 of the matches counted was a default of an injured player; s/b 55! 30 years later they discovered a computer error neglecting to give Goolagong credit for being #1 for 2 wks! There are other instances of corrections when they look a little closer to related events!
***The biggest surprise for me was that Djokovic now has more GS wins than Nadal; 200. Passed him during Wimbledon I believe. (Nadal has 196 wins.)***
ReplyDeleteNo one's been more consistent than Nole over the years at the Majors! Nadal has missed months, w/ the FO his only secure major while Roger and Nole have been making the 1/4's and semi's at almost every event! I'm shocked, you're shocked!
***IDK why I didn't realize he was sneaking up on the leaders, but yeah, you're right. Even if you don't win the tourney, those finals & semis pile up the wins! - Djokovic has 200 wins for a 85.4% winning rate. Nadal has 196 wins, 87.5% winning rate.
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But we were talking about GS wins. How do you interpret that? Not winning %.***
No one's owned the tour like Nole these last few yrs! He hasn't been upset early or missed any majors, so I'd say w/o even checking the #'s that he has surpassed them both in either category you want to look at Moxie! His record has been almost as stellar as Roger's back in the day! No other pro's come close; taking AO 4 of 5 years, making the semi and final of the FO every year, winning 3 Wimbledons, then finishing off w/ magnificent runs at the USO, taking out Roger 2 str. semi's coming back from 2 MP's! Who else has done that recently?
***Despite Djokovic's impressive run, Nadal still has the higher winning % Fiero.
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A year ago I voted for 12 majors going to Nole. I feel comfortable with that prediction, although might up it to 13-14. I posited then:
2014-15 (age 27-28): 2-3
2016-17 (age 28-29): 1-3
2018-20 (age 30-32): 0-2
Novak had just won his 7th. I predicted 2-3 more in 2014-15 which was 5 more Slams. So far he's won 2--the AO and Wimb this year. He has 6 Slams before his 30th BD in May of 2017. While turning 30 isn't some magical line that once a player crosses it, he'll start rapidly declining. ...I'm going to predict that he wins 1/2 of those 6, which would bring him to a total of 12 by his 30th BD. ...Regardless, 14 is my new prediction.***
History says 30 is that less than "magical age" where things don't come so easily! It happens to the player and his fans w/o even noticing; thinking "he's just having a bad day or season," when the fact is "the decline has started!" It's already happened to Federer; marked by his last major win being 3 yrs ago! I've always thought Nadal's X was limited and he surprised me by hanging in there so long w/ the way he plays the game; just running his body ragged unnecessarily vs "also-ran, has-beens, and never-weres!" Wawrinka's been "Jeckle & Hyde" his entire career w/ all the talent in the world, but you don't know who's going to show up! One day he's winning the FO and the next he's going out in the 1st or 2nd rd to some kid! Even at Nole's worst, he's been able to stave off many upsets of any kind, normally making 1/4's and semi's routinely; even at Majors!
I was going to give Andy props for threatening Roger's hold on #2, but after winning Madrid over Nadal and a 2 other smaller events, he went down in flames in the next 2 major semi's against Nole and Roger respectively! He still has a chance to make a serious mark, but has to win the USO not just make a good showing! That just won't do it and he will have had another wasted season w/ all that hard work and little to show for it! Nadal supposedly doesn't have many points to defend, but I don't think he'll make any kind of showing this summer; hasn't much in the past! Why should this year be any different; but we'll see and hope! As always, I'm still waiting for the new "young guns" to make their mark; sorta like last year, but 1 will have to actually win instead of losing to a "granddad" in another final like Kei at the USO!
***Novak's Place Among the All-Time Greats:
ReplyDeleteCongrats to Novak on his 10th Slam. Earlier this year I came up w/ a simple system to rank all-X greats. I looked at 2 factors: Year-end #1 and #2 rankings and Slam wins and runner's up. I gave points like so:
Rankings
Year-end #1 (lone): 3 pts
Year-end #1 (shared): 2 pts
Year-end #2: 1 pt
Slams
Amateur win: 2 pts
Pro win: 2 pts
Open Era win: 3 pts
runner-up (any): 1 pt
It isn't a perfect system, but it is a nice, quick and dirty way to rank the all-X greats. Anyhow, before the year Novak had 38 points and was tied w/ Andre Agassi at #13. Now that he's won 3 Slams, w/ 1 Runner-up and has secured the year-end #1, he has accrued 13 more pts and has 51, which makes him jump past not only Agassi, but McEnroe, Budge, Borg, Connors, & Lendl to #8. Yup, that's right. In this ranking system, Novak is the 8th greatest player of all X and clearly he isn't done yet. Here are the top 15:
1. Federer 81
2. Rosewall 78
3. Laver 75
4t. Sampras 65
4t. Gonzales 65
6. Nadal 62
7. Tilden 60
8. Djokovic 51
9. Lendl 49
10t. Connors 47
10t. Borg 47
12. Budge 41
13. McEnroe 39
14. Agassi 38
15. Perry 37
So here's the thing. With another yr like this 1, he'll jump past Tilden and...Rafa Nadal. Now of course that assumes that Rafa has another "nothing" year in 2016, and it also assumes that Novak can equal this, his 2nd career year. But I think even if he comes back to Earth a bit next year (likely) and wins "only" 2 Slams and 1 runner-up, to go along w/ another year-end #1 ranking, he would finish with 61 points - just behind Rafa. Even if Rafa wins a Slam and gets 3-5 more points, Novak will be closing fast.
Novak also has a very good chance of passing Gonzales and Sampras. Depending upon how he ages, he'll probably finish somewhere in the upper 60s to mid-70s. I don't think he can catch Roger, even if Roger never wins another Slam (which doesn't seem likely at this point), but he might gain several more points and finish in the mid-80s - a tall order for Novak to reach, given that he's 28. But he very well could finish his career among the 4 greatest ever...at least according to this system. So yeah, Novak is pretty good.***
I just can't get over this "GOLDEN AGE" of tennis w/ these great players dominating the majors and Masters 1000 events! We had anointed Sampras as the GOAT even w/o a FO final on his resume, but had acquired 14 GS titles; leading the way for the men! That all changed less than 10 years ago w/ ascension of Federer, Nadal, & Djokovic! They have each reached double digits and are still playing! They've won 3 majors in a season; Roger 3 X's, Nole twice, and Nadal in '13! They all lead the way in Masters 1000 titles and own most if not ALL of the records involving them! After all is said and done, it looks as if Federer will hold on as the GOAT for the foreseeable future w/ 17 GS titles! After Nole reaching 10 w/ this USO title, #2 on the list is up for grabs needing to pass Nadal & Sampras at 14 each! It's doable! We'll see! What a X to be a fan!
***Are you 1 of those guys who think Fed should've retired after Wimbledon '12 to protect the H2H's?***
ReplyDeleteNot to protect his H2H's, but his legacy of winning in general! It's been 3 yrs since a Major win! Roger's barely been holding on, subsisting on consistent results and sometimes showing moments of brilliance, but he's not gotten any closer w/ "SABR!" Five sets is 5 sets; will only get away w/ slashin' and dashin' for so long! I encourage it; esp. keeping points shorter, but Father X's creakin'! Sooner or later it's gonna go horribly wrong, and I'd hate to see that happen!
***You are right. Djokovic's level is bound to decline after this year, but he s/b fine til next yr. After that, he will have same problem as all the aged players have - being unable to maintain focus throughout the whole match or tourney. It's just something natural and it doesn't matter how great you are, it will hit you.***
It's gonna take X and these new guys will have to become a lot more resilient! So far they're about as weak as balsa wood! How many seasons has any of the new bloods stayed on court more than a few months; if that? Kei, Raonic, and all the rest are nursing their own injuries! Nole has that added sweetener of being rather flexible! He avoids more serious problems and has been the most consistent getting out there and winning over the last 5 yrs!
***1. Nole didn't play well, but toughed out his 2nd USO title. Fed couldn't covert all those BP's. ...Nole accepted his gift and didn't do anything particular. I agreed the match was on Fed's racket, different from Wimbledon of last 2 years.
2. Fed is still in great position to get #18. Yes, he played poorly, but only to Nole, who's dominating the rest of field. He can dispatch Murray/Stan much easier. If Murray/Stan land in Nole's 1/2, they will bring stiff competition, at the very least, wear him out. Nole had favor of draw, didn't play tough semi and came out fresh against Fed. W/o Nole at the final, Fed would have trophies of IW, ROME, WIMBLEDON, USO, plus Cinci now; any difference from 10 yrs ago?
3. Congrats to Nole. This is truely BIG 3 era. Each of them has 10+ majors and 20+ Masters. Unbelievable to witness each of them crossing bar in the last 10 yrs. Nole's still not in Fedal league, but he can write his own history by:
i) 30+ Masters. Very likely
ii) Nole slam. Very probable. I have a strange feeling that Nole's dominance in Majors in descending order, w/ AO best and his USO worst.
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Murray w/b having a good season if his name was Grigor Dimitrov. But his name is Andy Murray. - To be fair in Andy's career, '12 and '13 were more anomalies than the norm. Not saying he s/b pumped w/ his result, but only 2 of 8 or so years in the top 10 did he win a Slam....The only thing that he should blame himself for is that he went walkabout in the AO final after he managed to stay even w/ Novak for such a long X. Not saying that he would have won, but it was a 50/50 match up until that point.
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AO final, 1st title on clay, Madrid, Montreal, a win over Nole, back up to #2~3 ranking, etc. It's hard not to be very happy w/ this season so far. And he still has a chance for DC and there are 2 Masters & the WTF to play. Murray may have missed out on a Slam this year, but he still has 3 or 4 yrs at least at the top so he has plenty of X. Being included in the "Big 4" has its price. People expect more from you. But 2 Slams, 11 Masters titles, an Olympic Gold Medal, 30+ tour titles and 10 GS finals is an awfully good career. If Murray had been born 15 years earlier. ...Sure he throws the F bombs around, but he's not sledging anybody. He doesn't abuse ball kids, demand umpires to be removed from his matches, and force us to watch him scratch his butt before every point.***
***...Back to Novak, even after he drops a notch he really could continue winning a Slam or 2 into his 30s considering the field. I see him winning many more Slams post-28 than Roger did (only 2 so far). Roger's Slam titles dropped off so precipitously b/c 2 things happened: his slight decline from 2007-09 continued so that he reached a lower plateau in '10, and during that X Rafa began his peak phase and Novak and Andy est. themselves as elite players. Even if Novak drops a bit in '16 and going forward, if he can maintain a high level he can really rack up some Slams b/c there are no equivalent young elites coming up. Where Roger had Rafa, Novak and Andy, Novak has Kei, Milos, and Grigor. That's what I meant by Novak having it comparatively easy in his late 20s than Roger had it during the same period of X. I could see Novak winning 6-8 Slams over the next 3 yrs. But of course it is probably unlikely that we won't at least see some surprises.
ReplyDelete---
There are few other aspects of Novak to consider:
YE #1: This was achieved only 5 X's by Roger and 3 X's by Rafa. Of course, Pete has 6.
- This year is Novak's 4th year ending #1. He is a shoe-in for '16 and an almost shoe-in for '17.
So, it looks like Novak can surpass Fed and equal Pete (though not in cons. yrs) in this regard.
- Weeks at #1: This may be more difficult. He current has 164 wks at #1. Add 16 more wks to that as he is guaranteed to be #1 until next season starts and then it becomes 180. If he can remain #1 for 2 more years, which is difficult but not impossible, it becomes 290 and then he is very close to Roger.
- # of WTF/YEC titles? Again here he is dangerously close to Roger and might reach and/or surpass him. Roger has 6 and Novak has 4 right now. If we give '15 & '16 WTF titles to Novak (which is not far fetched), he would already equal Roger.
- GS? This is the 1 mostly talked about in the other thread. It looks like if Rafa remains static, Novak will surely reach him at the very least; even w/ a cons. est. of 2 slams in '16, 1 more in '17, and 1 more sometime before his career ends.
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As "awful" as Rafa has been, he's still #7 in the rankings and has a chance of finishing as high as #5. Clearly that isn't up to his own standards, but if he can make some adjustments then I don't see why he can't return to the #2-4 range. Unless, of course, the physical erosion is so great that he truly is in a downward spiral. To put it another way, while I don't think we'll ever see '13 Rafa, we might see something better than '15 Rafa.
While he could go up to #2-4, he could also go even lower. X will tell in which direction he will go. I can see him replacing David Ferrer, being a collector of the smaller clay events (250 and 500) w/ the occasional Master finals and Slam SF. As we saw, that was enough for David to maintain a top 8 position up to 32 years. However David was a very good distance runner. That's where I'm curious how Rafa will be going forward in comparison to David. How well his running ability will held up. This year I saw not 1 instance that fatigue played a factor.***
***WINS AGAINST TOP-10 FOR DJOKOVIC IN THE SLAMS FROM 2011-'15
ReplyDelete2011: 6 wins
AO
Berdych [6] QF 6–1, 7–6(7–5), 6–1
Federer [2] SF 7–6(7–3), 7–5, 6–4
Murray [5] F 6–4, 6–2, 6–3
WIMBLEDON
Nadal [1] F 6–4, 6–1, 1–6, 6–3
USO
Federer [3] SF 6–7(7–9), 4–6, 6–3, 6–2, 7–5
Nadal [2] F 6–2, 6–4, 6–7(3–7), 6–1
--
2012: 7 wins
AO
Ferrer [5] QF 6–4, 7–6(7–4), 6–1
Murray [4] SF 6–3, 3–6, 6–7(4–7), 6–1, 7–5
Nadal [2] F 5–7, 6–4, 6–2, 6–7(5–7), 7–5
RG
Tsonga [5] QF 6–1, 5–7, 5–7, 7–6(8–6) 6–1
Federer [3] SF 6–4, 7–5, 6–3
USO
del Potro [8] QF 6–2, 7–6(7–3), 6–42–6,
Ferrer [5] SF 6–1, 6–4, 6–2
--
2013: 6 wins
AO
Berdych [6] QF 6–1, 4–6, 6–1, 6–4
Ferrer [5] SF 6–2, 6–2, 6–1
Murray [3] F 6–7(2–7), 7–6(7–3), 6–3, 6–2
WIMBLEDON
Berdych [6] QF 7–6(7–5), 6–4, 6–3
del Potro [8] SF 7–5, 4–6, 7–6(7–2), 6–7(6–8), 6–3
USO
Wawrinka [10] SF 2–6, 7–6(7–4), 3–6, 6–3, 6–4
--
2014: 3 wins
RG
Raonic [9] QF 7–5, 7–6(7–5), 6–4
WIMBLEDON
Federer [4] F 6–7(7–9), 6–4, 7–6(7–4), 5–7, 6–4
USO
Murray [9] QF 7–6(7–1), 6–7(1–7), 6–2, 6–4
--
2015: 9 wins
AO
Raonic [8] QF 7–6(7–5), 6–4, 6–2
Wawrinka [4] SF 7–6(7–1), 3–6, 6–4, 4–6, 6–0
Murray [6]F 7–6(7–5), 6–7(4–7), 6–3, 6–0
RG
Nadal [7] QF 7–5, 6–3, 6–1
Murray [3] SF 6–3, 6–3, 5–7, 5–7, 6–1
WIMBLEDON
Cilic [9] QF 6–4, 6–4, 6–4
Federer [2] F 7–6(7–1), 6–7(10–12), 6–4, 6–3
USO
Cilic [9] SF 6–0, 6–1, 6–2
Federer [2] F 6–4, 5–7, 6–4, 6–4
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I think it's now very clear that Djokovic's peak level is comparable to Federer's at his peak, w/ 2011 proving to be no fluke. Nole may end up beating as many top-10 players as Federer by the X it's all done. Both Federer and Djokovic have achieved years where they beat top-10 opposition 9 X's in the Slams. Djokovic has a chance this year to maybe achieve 30+ wins against top-ten players in 2015.
Djokovic is very dominant this year, as Federer was in his best years. He c/b dominant next year too. Who would bet against him being a contender once again at all 4 majors? He's in his pomp. I maintain that 2015 Djokovic is the peak version of Djokovic I'd choose to enter some mythical GOAT chps.
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Djokovic H2H records:
Nadal: 21-23
Federer: 21-21
Murray: 19-9
Wawrinka: 18-4
Berdych: 19-2
Ferrer: 15-5
CIlic: 14-0
Tsonga: 13-6
Del Potro: 11-3
How do you dare call Djokovic a 1-year wonder?***
***After Novak's 2011 run, I thought he would for sure pocket 2 Slams a year, but you know how that went down. But this X around, I'm more convinced that he can do just that: at least 2 Slams a year for the next 2 years. I think it is more spectacular to have 2 seasons w/ 3 Slams than, let's say, 3 seasons w/ 2. 3+ is much more difficult to achieve. That's why Fed and Djoko are the only ones who've done it more than once.
ReplyDelete---
- http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/djokovic-and-federer-are-vying-to-be-the-greatest-of-all-time/ -
In the men’s game, though, whether you place greater weight on peaks or consistency makes a huge difference. Djokovic is playing at a level virtually unseen in the sport, topping even Federer’s best years a decade ago. But Federer is nearly as good now as he was then, and has been improving over the last 2 years, giving him unprecedented levels of career value.
From 2004-'07, Federer won 11 GS titles. Djokovic’s best 4-yr stretch, from 2011-'14, brought him just 6. How's Djokovic’s peak higher than Federer’s? And what about all the guys other than Federer who have more majors than Djokovic? Rafael Nadal and Pete Sampras have 14. Bjorn Borg has 11. Djokovic has just 10.
In his prime, Federer had to beat some great players, including a young Djokovic and Nadal and an older Andre Agassi. But the challenge Djokovic has overcome is more formidable. Since his rise to #1 in the official rankings and in our Elo rankings in '11, he has competed w/ Nadal and Andy Murray in their primes, and a still-dangerous Federer.
That competition has helped bring Djokovic today to the highest peak of anyone in our data set, edging just ahead of Borg and Federer. Djokovic peaked following his semifinal win at this year’s FO, reaching 1/10 of a point higher than Borg reached after his semifinal win at the 1980 U.S. Open. (They both lost the subsequent final.) Djokovic is still within striking distance of that high now. The chart also shows how closely matched he, Federer, Nadal and Murray were in 2010. They were truly a Big Four then, and there was no telling who w/b the biggest of them in the subsequent few years. It turned out to be Djokovic.
But who is the GOAT? ...No matter which threshold we chose, and no matter whether we rated players by match, set or game, Federer reigned as the GAG GOAT. His current success is just running up the score. Then again, Djokovic and Nadal already rank high and are more than 5 years younger than Federer. If they can do what he’s doing at 34, his claim to best ever might have to fall back to the simple count of major titles. If you set replacement value at a typical top-2 player, and Djokovic maintains his high level, there’s a chance he’ll catch Federer in the next 2 yrs. Nadal, though, would have to reverse his recent decline to compete.
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Massive win for the Djoker. The USO was a kind of cursed Slam for him having lost in 4 finals there already. S/b good practice for turning around the curse of the FO. I'm liking his chances to complete the career Slam next year. - Career Ranking Points:
Djokovic has now earned 11,140 ranking points in his career at the US Open, making it his 2nd most successful GS behind the AO by just 140 points. The USO is now the 3rd major where Djokovic has earned over 10,000 ranking points, making the Serb and Federer the only players to do so at more than 2 events.
In the final, Djokovic surpassed Federer in avg. pts earned per GS.
Avg. pts per GS
1. Bjorn Borg 1148
2. Rafael Nadal 949
3. Novak Djokovic 904
4. Roger Federer 890
5. Rod Laver 851***
***In total points earned, Djokovic has parked himself w/i striking distance of a whole pack of players just barely ahead of him. In fact, Djokovic could potentially move all the way up to #2 by reaching the final at the AO.
ReplyDeleteCareer pts earned at GS
1. Roger Federer 58,795
2. Rafael Nadal 40,835
3. Jimmy Connors 40,480
4. Pete Sampras 40,385
5. Ivan Lendl 39,890
6. Novak Djokovic 39,790
7. Andre Agassi 37,675
Nadal's lead on Djokovic is 1045, so if Rafa reaches the 4th rd or better, NOLE will have to win the title to pass the Spaniard. If Nadal reaches the final, he will prolong his stay at #2, which he earned at RG this year.
Record against rivals - NOLE had 2 wins over top 10 ranked opponents in his run to the title. He now is 21-4 against top 10 opponents in '15 & 148-79 in his career. Those 148 wins are the 2nd most in tennis history behind only Federer.
Against the Big Four, Djokovic has tied Nadal for the most wins w/i the 4-way rivalry.
Wins against Big 4 (overall record)
1. Novak Djokovic 61(61-53)
1. Rafael Nadal 61 (61-37)
3. Roger Federer 45 (45-55)
4. Andy Murray 20 (20-33)
Grand Slams - 10 GS titles now belong to Djokovic - 5 AO's, 3 Wimbledons, and 2 US Opens. He joins, Federer, Nadal, Sampras, Lendl, & Stefan Edberg as the only players w/ multiple slams at 3 different majors.
Grand Slam titles (Open Era)
1. Roger Federer 17
2. Pete Sampras 14
2. Rafael Nadal 14
4. Bjorn Borg 11
5. Novak Djokovic 10
Before taking the title in NY, Djokovic also won Wimbledon, making it the 3rd X that Djokovic had won cons. GS titles in his career. In the majors this year, Djokovic went 27-1, which equals the best record by a player in majors since Rod Laver won the GS in '69. Federer was the other player to go 27-1, doing so in '06.
GOAT debate - Djokovic now holds many of his own records. The peak he has reached in 2015 is the highest peak ever reached by a player. He has won 4 of the 1st 7 1000 events played so far this year and reached the final of all 6 that he has played in, while winning 3 of the majors and all 4 major finals.
Other than Fed though, nobody else is putting up #'s that are out of reach, except perhaps the incredible mark by Borg of 1148 ranking points earned per major. On the GOAT rankings, Federer may be out of reach for Djokovic right now, but everybody else is at risk of dropping behind Djokovic in the coming years. Ultimately, what we saw in the 2015 USO final were 2 of the sports all-X greats if not the 2 all-X greatest fighting for the most important trophy left in the 2015 season. Only X will tell how far Djokovic can climb the GOAT list.***
***Djokovic is widely considered to be 1 of the greatest returners in the history of the sport, an accolade given to him even by Agassi. Though staying clear of best ever conversations, tennis coach Nick Bollettieri has continually been praising Djokovic:
ReplyDelete“When you look at match players in the history of tennis, I don’t believe that anybody can equal everything on the court that Djokovic does. I don’t think you can find a weakness in his game. His movement, personality, his return of serve, his serve, excellent touch, not hesitant in coming to the net, great serve. Over all, almost every player has a downfall; to me he doesn’t have one. He’s perhaps the best put-together player that I’ve seen over 60 yrs.”
Tennis pundits have classified many of Nole's matches as some of the greatest contests ever, w/ the '12 AO final being considered the greatest match ever seen, as a testament to his greatness as a tennis player. Some longtime analysts claim that the Djokovic-Nadal rivalry ranks as the best rivalry in tennis history primarily b/c of the quality of matches they produce.***
I've seen them come and go for well over 40 yrs! Someone can have a CY and you never hear from them again; Soderling & Del PO at the top of the list! Then you have this current crop like Dimitrov, Simon, Dopo, and so many others that can contest for a Master for a few months, then totally forget how to play the game after that! This 'BIG 4' have staved off many challenges w/ little sweat; almost always making SF and F until recently! Now it's more about the 'BIG 2' w/ a semi-challenge going on w/ Murray & Federer! So far Murray's results may be better, but H2H Roger has embarrassed him w/o losing a set! How do you do that; esp. against a relatively OLD MAN? Right now it's all about Nole; w/ a lock on #1 in the foreseeable future!
***...Soderling and Delpo are top of the list 'cos the former had to quit playing due to mono and the latter is injured non-stop.
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Careful now when you talk about people racking up Slams while not beating great players in their prime. How many of Novak and Rafa's Slams have been against opponents well past their prime or opponents who weren't even great in the 1st place?***
Who's had it tougher than Nole w/ Roger and Rafa getting "all the love" while he was the perennial #3 for a while until "breaking though" in '11? He only had 1 lower level player in Tsonga back in '08 final at AO! Since then he's had to deal w/ the other Big 4 in Murray, Federer, and Nadal! Fedal have had plenty of walkover competition in major finals; Ferrer, Roddick, Berdych, an aging Agassi, and others too numerous to name OTTH! Nole came of age, got his head on right, has a great team and work ethic, and he's finally reaping the benefits of that hard work! I give him all due credit and praise for what he's been able to accomplish w/ "most of the cheers" going to his rivals! I guess I love an underdog! I see so many parallels w/ Ivan Lendl when he had to compete against Borg, Connors, Agassi, Becker, Wilander, Edberg, & McEnroe; never got his due no matter how much he won!
***Fiero, I'm not disputing Novak is playing great. Roger has been past his prime for years and his post was about Roger racking up Slams against no great players in their primes. You can say that about this era or in fact any era 'cos it'll never be the case that all the great players are the same age.
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...it's very true that Roger banged out over 12 Slams w/o beating a single great player in their prime. - Was Roger in his prime in '05, '06, '07, '08? Rafa beat him in all those years, and in '09 Roger won 2 Slams, and reached a further 2 finals; Rafa beat him in Oz. Nole beat Rafa in '11 & Oz in '12, then Rafa beat Nole in Paris in '12, and then beat the world #1 on HC's at the USO.***
***Comparing Roger's '06 w/ Novak's current run:
ReplyDeleteRoger's Jan '06 - Dec '06:
Wins 3 of the 4 Slams, final of the other
Wins WTF
4 Masters wins, 2 finals, 1 2nd Rd, 2 absences.
Novak since Nov '14:
Wins 3 of the 4 Slams, final of the other
Wins WTF
5 Masters wins, 2 finals, 1 absence.
So actually, regardless of what happens in Shanghai, is Novak's Nov '14 - Oct '15 the most consistently dominant 12 months ever?***
In a word "yes!"
***We can break this down into individual factors that matter w/ Roger:
1. Only Wimby or USO. The other 2, AO and RG are much longer shots. He hasn't made a final in 5 yrs.
2. Not getting upset early to a lower ranked player: has happened at all Slams. Seppi, Gulbis, Stakhovsky, Robredo.
3. Not losing to a big hitter such as Berdych, Tsonga and maybe a few other players that 'get hot.'
4. Not losing to Nadal IF he has to play him. He may not play Nadal, but if he does, I think Rafa walks into the match as the fave irrespective of his form. It's been 8 yrs since Roger beat Rafa in a major.
5. Not facing Nole in the Final. Given the past 3 major finals btw them, Novak will walk into the match w/ too much confidence in addition to his peak game.
6. 1st serve %. This used to bail him out when he was in trouble. But now, it inevitably drops in major finals.
7. Not getting nervous, throwing BP's and big pts away. It is not as if Roger hasn't played well enough to win a slam. Of course he has; thrice in the past 2 years.
8. Not sticking to an attacking game in finals. Although Roger has been able to transition to a much more attacking game plan w/ more/better net approaches, he has a tendency to revert back to baseline rallies in major finals. Again, it c/b nervousness and confidence issues. But he cannot outplay the top players from the baseline.
9. FH unforced errors neutralizing the rest of his game. This is again something that happens w/ disturbing frequency on big points and BP's in major finals.
10. 5 setters and stamina. A strong opponent in the final walks in knowing Fed's poor 5th set record in finals and his possible stamina issues in the 5th.
11. Roger's waning 'opportunistic instincts.' When we look at RG '09 & Wimbledon '09, it can be argued that he "should not" have won them. Twice he came close to losing in RG '09. Roddick "should" have won the Wimbledon '09 final. But Roger rose to the occasion multiple X's when he needed it most.
12. His laid back approach. When he's playing well enough to make it to the final, Roger doesn't seem to take a step back before the final and consider all the possibilities long and hard. Even a clear knowledge of what went wrong in previous finals can prevent some mistakes. This also provides more confidence to the opponent b/c he knows the Roger will not systematically tailor his tactics to his weaknesses.
Many if not most of the above factors must swing the right way for Roger to win a major. What are the chances?***
...I guess you can say thinking about it that Roger's "been done" since '08 when Nadal took ownership of the tour! Roger's played a few finals and goes years w/o a real sniff; '12 being his last great year w/ Wimbledon, taking #1 ranking back, and winning Silver in the Olympics! It's been only cosmetic IMO ever since! He's won some Masters, but when it comes to actually finishing in major finals, he's come up short again and again! We shouldn't be surprised w/ all of us hoping someone will donate a GS his way and I just can't see it happening! The competition has been ferocious even though I've been calling them gutless for years coming up short until recently! I think we'll know all by the AO how well a season all of the BIG 4 will be having, but Nole's KING for now!
***I don't agree that Roger's losses have to do w/ the mental aspect. For me, it's a level of play issue 1st and foremost. In all those finals and semis where he's had a chance but lost, he's been outplayed in all of them pretty much from the beginning to the end. I'd say on the contrary that he managed to stay in them, despite being outgunned and made the matches much closer than they would normally be. I'd contrast that w/ say, the AO2009 which was more of a gameplan/mental issue (there Roger was outgunning Nadal, but eventually lost b/c he got tight).
ReplyDeleteWhen I say athleticism, I mean the combination of size/stamina/speed/explosion/strength. Cilic and Wawrinka are much stronger, more explosive players w/ more stamina/recovery than Roger and are thus better athletes at this stage of their careers, even if Roger still has a step on them in the movement department. Roger isn't winning baseline wars, precisely for this reason.
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Not to start a competition war, but I will bite, how is Nole's current competition much better than Roger's in 2006? Note that Roger had Rafa near his best on clay. Right now Nole has a fairly washed up Roger, a badly faltering (perhaps washed up Rafa) and then just Murray.***
As much as I call the rest of the tour GUTLESS, they're a lot better than that; PLEASE! Berdych, Ferrer, Cilic, Wawrinka, Kei, Raonic, Dimitrov, Simon, and so many more are quite competitive and can take any of the Big 4 out these days! Nole's had to dig himself out of holes many a X of late; DOPO just last month in Cincy!
***In a word--No. Federer was more dominant, lost fewer matches and lost fewer sets.***
Federer was more dominant and lost fewer sets in his "day!" His style of player hypnotized his opposition and he floated through many a tourney w/o much fuss! Nole is dominating in his own way; taking his 1st 4 Masters of the season and surviving tough wins at Wimbledon and the USO! I still SMH over seeing the dominance of these 3 players routinely taking 3 of 4 majors, but Nole's had that little extra w/ his dominance in the fall going into the WTF! His run the last several years is unprecedented w/o even checking the record! Most top players are so drained that they're lucky to win more than a couple YEC's, but to also take the Masters events leading up to it can't of been done as routinely as Djokovic these last several years!
***Tennis Generations, Part Two: Before the Open Era - In case anyone is wondering, here is what I have planned:
1. Open Era Generations - Introduction
2. Before the Open Era
3. Gen 1: Dominance from Down Under (1934-38)
4. Gen 2: Ashe and Who? (1939-43)
5. Gen 3: A New Era (1944-48)
6. Gen 4: Connors & Crew (1949-53)
7. Gen 5: First and Greatest of the Swedes (1954-58)
8. Gen 6: Johnny & Ivan (1959-63)
9. Gen 7: Matty, Stefan, and Boris (1964-68)
10. Gen 8: American Greatness (1969-73)
11. Gen 9: Inbetweeners (1974-78)
12. Gen 10: Generation Federer (1979-83)
13. Gen 11: Rafa & Novak (1984-88)
14. Gen 12: The Donald Young Guns, aka the Lost Generation (1989-93)
15. Gen 13: A New Hope? (1994-98)
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Novak has reached the final of every big event in which he has competed (i.e. all except Madrid) since the Paris Masters last year. i.e.:
Paris - won
WTF - won
AO - won
IW - won
Miami - won
M-C - won
Rome - won
FO - final
WD - won
Canada - final
Cinci - final
USO - won
So if Novak can reach the final of Shanghai, he will have reached at least the final of every Slam and Masters in which he has competed for a whole year! Has anyone ever done this before? Roger came close in '06, but he lost in the 2nd Rd of Cinci, as well as missing Hamburg & Paris Masters. In other words, if Novak were to make the final in Shanghai, would this be the most consistent 12 months at the top level that anyone
has ever achieved? (I wonder how it compares to dominant 12 month periods by players further back in X?)***
***Djokovic has the fewest retirements and W/O among Top 10 players (last 300 matches)
ReplyDeleteDjokovic: 0
Federer: 2
-2014 WTF F vs Djokovic: W/O
-2012 Doha SF vs Tsonga: W/O
Murray: 3
-2015 Rome R16 vs Goffin: W/O
-2013 Rome R32 vs Granollers: 3-6 7-6(5) RET
-2012 Canada R16 vs Raonic: W/O
Nadal: 1
-2012 Miami SF vs Murray: W/O
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Still, WTF is best-of-3, gives Roger more of a chance.***
Those 4th sets are just entertainment for the fans really! Reminds me of WTA YEC going best of 5 sets to keep Navratilova on the court longer than 38 min. in her prime! Against Murray, Federer, & Wawrinka, Nole's made them look bad in some of those 4th sets; sometimes a bagel!
***Novak has the best 5-set record against the others in the Big 4 and overall as well, but followed very closely by Rafa. RF on the other hand has a pitiful 5-set record for an alleged GOAT. RF starts matches great, but gets weaker and weaker - mentally mostly - as the match goes on. Whereas Novak just gets better and better. Another reason RF has more success recently against Novak is that Novak prepares a lot more seriously for Slams than other events, compared to RF.
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Nadal won 3 slams in 2010 on 3 different surfaces where he started to find his peak form on other surfaces like HC and not just clay. Federer wasn't in sights to reach slam finals so he pretty much was ready to take over after 2010. Plus he was at a ripe age of 24. No one expected Novak to step in 2011 though and have the season as he did so things were setup for Nadal.***
People don't think about that; Nadal cruising into 2011 w/ not a care in the world winning last 3 majors of 2010; except that Nole "got his act" together! Nadal was in final after final from IW/Miam, then Madrid/Rome, but was bested each X by Djokovic; the clay events in straight sets! Nadal did his thing in Paris, but Roger had upset Nole in the semi so we'll never know how that "could have gone" and changed history! Nadal
continued making major finals, losing each in 4 to his nemesis from Serbia! You can say if not for Nole, Rafa may have dominated for years to come! He's only been able to find form in 2013; other than that he's been scratchin' just to remain in the top 10!
***Nadal '10 - Tourneys played - 17
Finals reached - 9
Titles won - 7
Nadal '11 - Tournaments played - 17
Finals reached - 10
Titles won - 3
That damned Djokovic.
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Beijing 2014 - USO 2015: Novak has lost just 6 matches in 12 months (w/ no defeats vs Nadal), an avg. of 1 loss per 2 months
Beijing 2012 - FO 2014: Novak lost 14 matches in 20 months (w/ 4 defeats vs Nadal). If you factored out the 4 Nadal losses, you w/b looking at 10 losses in 20 months, an average of 1 loss per 2 months.
Additionally:
4/6 slams won from Wimb 14 - USO 15 w/ 1 loss to GOATing Wawrinka and 1 in a subpar display vs Nishikori
4/6 slams won from AO 13 - FO 14 with 1 loss to GOATing Wawrinka and 1 in a subpar display vs Murray
It seems to me like Novak's over-all level dropped considerably following his USO 2011 win, until about his USO 2012 loss (still winning AO in this span b/c of how much the surface favors him, but in 2 nailbiter SF/Fs as opposed to the dominant win in 2011).
But from Beijing 2012-current, his level has been continuously high (outside of the post-marriage hangover in the 2014 fast HC season). The gap in achievements in 2015 vs Beijing 12 - FO14, has almost everything to do w/ Nadal producing an equally high level of GOAT play simultaneously (which we have not seen before in this sport). Now in '15, removing that anomaly of insanely strong competition, Djokovic's true dominance vs the field can shine through the way (and in many ways greater) than Feds did. Case in point is the 24 top 10 wins by Nadal in 2013, was matched by Djokovic in both 2012 and 2013, and is the ALL TIME RECORD.***
***I will always prefer Nole's '15 to 2011 mainly b/c the run took a lot out of Novak and by this X during that year he was washed up. This year he comes to this section of the tour looking very well and ready to take on anyone. This bodes well for a strong year end, unlike in '11 and an equally good kick off of the next year. This is more important at this stage of his career.***
ReplyDeleteNole overplayed in 2011; actually participating and winning an inaugural event owned by his family I guess in Serbia before the FO! When you make final after final as Nole has done in the past few yrs and esp. this season, you have to be more judicious in your appearances and he's done a very good job of that; managing his schedule!
***Before thinking of beating Novak, Rafa has to manage to beat the other top 10 players when he faces them. His record against top 10 is 2-8, beside Djokovic, also Murray, Wawrinka, Raonic, Berdych and Nishikori defeated him. OK, with Tomas he is 1-1 for the season.***
Some of those matches lost, Rafa was leading; within a point or 2 of winning! In the case of Raonic, he actually had multiple MP's and gave it back in 3 sets! AMAZING! How do you recover from that?
***Novak is starting to pick and choose his tournaments just like Federer. I think the 3 losses (FO, Montreal, Cincy) helped him more than anything. Constantly winning can get to a person. We saw that w/ Serena this year. While it's a shame he missed out on a GS or a calendar sweep of the Masters, he seems to be centered, sure of himself, and perfectly happy where he is; w/o the pressure of perfection. Winning the WTF w/b too much pressure, so I think he should let Murray wrap this season up w/ a WTF/Davis Cup double-whammy.
---
It seems to me that Nole is really in his prime now. His confidence is supremely high. He has had a better year at the majors and the Masters events (and on clay) than in 2011. It is like comparing Nadal in 2010 versus 2013--which was more dominant? Hard to say, but I think I'd put this year over 2011. He rather routinely disposed of Rafa today and he looked comfortable doing it. Stan and Roger might be the only 2 who can go toe to toe w/ him now and they will lose most of the X.***
You guys have it, except I don't think he should relent and give up anything; esp. the YEC! He needs to continue piling up #'s on the ATP to get his true and aggregate level in comparison to the GOAT and GOAT-in-waiting! Even though he's owned the last couple seasons, the fans, ad campaigns, and commentators still fall back into talking about Federer and Nadal! It just isn't right, but what can we do?
***Maybe if enough of us do what you did and become nouveau-Novaks, then he might be talked about more often. - '09 was recoverable, but 2012 was a more difficult one to recover from b/c Nadal was a few years older and you could see by then he had already lost some of his explosiveness. This year is not about injuries at all; just an all around physical decline at age 29 that has seen him become a barely top 10 player.***
Back in '09 & '12, I was just hopeful! I can do w/o watching, seeing articles, or hearing from Rafa again! I've never cared for his entire act on the court which is why I've been looking forward to these "times" like no other "hatah!" I'd just assume he hang around longer and get embarrassed like he had to be yesterday in China! More and more players are finding ways to extend him or complete a victory that most still are shocked to see and hear about! I've been saying for years that defensive counter-punching game was going to run him out of the sport before another player, but I'm not sure now! It looks as if he thinks everything can turn and he will be on top again! I guess you have to think that way; why else even compete? I just hope he can at least make it to the later Rds to meet his main rivals Nole and Roger! Maybe they can improve their #'s!
***BEST SEASONS EVER:
ReplyDeleteFed '06
- 4 Masters titles, 2 Runner Ups, 1 2R, 2 skip
- 1 500 title
- 3 250 titles
- 19 top 10 wins
- 92 total wins
- 5 losses
- VS -
Djok '15
- 6 Masters titles, 2 Runner Ups, 1 skip
- 1 500 title
- 1 250 QF
- 34 top 10 wins
- 83 total wins
- 5 losses
So that leaves:
- Fed: 3 250 titles + 1 Masters 2R + 24 more non-top 10 wins
- Djok: 2 Masters title + 1 250 QF + 15 more top 10 wins
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Best level of play is a toss up btw Djokovic '11 and Federer in '05 IMO w/ Federer '06 close behind.
Best year considering competition is Djokovic '11 by far.
Best year in terms of just results (just out of the last 30 yrs) w/b Djok '15 if he wins another Masters and the WTF, otherwise Federer '06.
Djokovic at his best is far scarier for prime Nadal than Federer at his best just due to the match up/psychology/etc..., so naturally in a field where Nadal is the other prominent factor, Djokovic will be more dominant over his main rivals. That is a given.
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01. Rod Laver 1969.
02. Roger Federer 2006.
*2. Novak Djokovic 2015. + Shanghai / Paris + WTF
03. Novak Djokovic 2011.
*3. Novak Djokovic 2015. + WTF
04. Roger Federer 2004.
*4. Novak Djokovic 2015. + Shanghai / Paris
05. Novak Djokovic 2015.
06. Roger Federer 2007.
07. Jimmy Connors 1974.
08. Rafael Nadal 2010.
09. Mats Wilander 1988.
10. John McEnroe 1984.
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I think Djokovic's competition in 2011 was better than Federer's in 2004. Peak Nadal and still very strong Federer > Hewitt and Roddick for instance. I think both years had some decent depth too. I also think Djokovic's 2011 was better than Federer's 2004. So I couldn't agree on that.
I see your point about not losing to anyone in the top 10, but that w/b a separate category, like best performance against other top players. Overall it is kind of the Nadal vs Federer logic. Is it really better Nadal loses to Blake, Youzhny, or Davydenko instead of Federer when he loses, just like is it better that Federer is losing to a bunch of people outside the top 10, but no real top guys.
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So it's not so easy to say 5 > 4 Masters or that Djokovic winning WTF undefeated matches Federer exactly. There needs to be more to bridge the gap of the Bo3 abomination. I'm an understanding fello so I'd just add 50% of a Bo5 Masters Final win over Bo3, meaning 2 Bo5 Masters is equal to 3 Bo3 Masters. Now let's analyze:
Federer
- 3 Slams, 1 Final
- 4 Masters, 2 Finals (5 were Bo5)
- Undefeated WTF (Bo5)
Djokovic
- 3 Slams, 1 Final
- 4 Masters, 2 Finals
The Bo5 factor results in Federer's Masters resume equating to 5.5 Titles and 3 Finals. So Djokovic needs 2 more Masters and match the undefeated WTF to MATCH Federer's 2006. Will be tough indeed.***
Thanks for the data guys!
***There are quite a few milestones for Novak to achieve which should keep him motivated in the next few years:
ReplyDelete- Win Cincy to complete the ATP 1000 Slam.
- Win FO to complete his Career Grand Slam.
- Win Olympic gold medal to complete his Career GS.
- Catch up w/ Borg @ 11 GS titles.
- Win 6+ WTF.
- Catch up w/ Sampras @ 14 GS titles.
- Catch up w/ Nadal @ 14+ GS titles.
- Reach 6+ YE #1.
- Stay 302+ weeks @ #1.
- Catch up w/ Federer @ 17+ GS titles.***
I think Nole will achieve a few of these goals w/i the next 2 yrs; w/o a sweat! He's not even playing well these days, but is still so far above the rest of the tour, it's beginning to get ugly! Those matches in China, including the routes of Ferrer and Nadal were little more than a continuation of an exh. match from a few days before! Nadal played well in the final, but Djokovic was relentless and didn't give him hope; even w/ those late breaks of his serve! I can't be happier! Federer's still the GOAT for the X being, but I wouldn't be surprised if Nole wipes out many of Roger's records! ;-)
***Frankly, he needs some good luck to achieve some of these milestones. I think reaching 6+ YE #1 and 302+ weeks at #1 are perhaps most likely to happen, after catching up w/ Borg. Three more yrs at the top of the pack, w/ or w/o great success at GS, seems very achievable given Novak's consistency. Only Murray has a conceivable chance of challenging him in this dept., i.e., reaching SF's or better in every tourney.
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By reaching '15 Shanghai SF's, Novak Djokovic has completed 1 amazing circle. Since his loss to Federer at this tourney in '14, the world #1 was the closest thing to perfection ever seen in this sport, winning 80 out of 85 matches, winning 10 out of 15 tournaments he participated in and reaching 14 finals. One fun fact stands out though - for full 12 months, Djokovic did not drop any of his points at any individual tourneys, only bettering some of his 2014 results and defending all titles he had to. Add to the fact that he was at the top of the list at this very moment last year as well, it is official now - Djokovic is the 1st ever #1 who only raised his points tally for an entire year.
Novak has assured that he will stay at 16k pts, the level nobody else reached ever in tennis history. Having already broken the record for highest amount of money earned in 1 season too, and we are still only in Oct.***
Very impressive indeed! I like his game, his humor, and of course his overall persona! Nole always says the right thing, doesn't gratuitously insult his opponents like another so called GOAT that will remain nameless IMO, and will soon overtake all his rivals in the H2H stat! I marvel at his name slowly erasing Roger's in so many ways and about to set them at a # that will be hard to beat in the future! He will own the MASTERS 1000 RB w/i the next yr or so!
***Djokovic has $87M, Federer $94. Should Djoko better Federer in next 2 tourneys and also win AO, I believe he will be in the driver's seat for eclipsing $100M before Roger.***
It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things; Roger still the king in endorsements! Even when he fell down to #6, you would have thought he was still on top w/ TV, magazines, and commentary! Nole is still just a footnote when it comes to Roger and Rafa; both elevated to GAWD-like status that Djokovic may never attain! It was the same w/ Lendl way back when; #1 in the world, but all people referenced Connors, McEnroe, and Becker before him!
***Luckily, Djokovic does not mind that. I am sure Lendl didn't either.***
All athletes care about that sort of thing underneath it all! I remember Barry Bonds who was obviously 1 of the most gifted of baseball players, but was visibly incensed at the accolades that both McGuire and Sosa were getting due to their homerun race back in '98! It led him to his own self-destruction whether he actually used PED's or not!
***2015 Shanghai Masters 1000 SF: Djokovic v. Murray***
ReplyDeleteNole's played about the minimum in comparison to other seasons of his and his rivals! He's cut back on his schedule and it makes sense since he makes the finals just about every tourney!
***If Nadal doesn't win YEC, the tourney's a glorified exh. If he wins it, it's the most significant tennis event of the year.***
Of course; to be expected! Even though Nadal's playing better; wouldn't be surprised if this YEC is a repeat of '09 where he lost all 3 of his RR matches! Just depends on how the draw is pulled I guess! If his usual punching bags like Ferrer and Berdych in his division, he'll do better, but if it's the others like Nole & Stan, he's in trouble making the semi! He has a better chance if he's dropped into Roger's div.; at least we'll see them! It's been so long since 1 or both have been able to make it to their appointed Rd to battle; if there is 1! ;-)
***Stan? Hasn't Nadal just hammered him?***
That was yesterday; "Hyde/Jeckle" Stan is unpredictable! You never know who'll show up!
***I like Stan. He has charisma, but since the FO he has done nothing of note. Fedrer though at O2 will hammer Rafa. He has beat him when Rafa playing well there and w/ his new attacking game will cause him major issues. - From USA Today. "Here are the scores of each set Djokovic has played since losing the 2nd set to Federer in last month’s USO final: 6-4, 6-4, 6-1, 6-1, 6-2, 6-1, 6-2, 6-2, 6-2, 6-3, 6-2, 6-2, 6-2, 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 7-6 (6), 6-1." + 6-1, 6-3 + 6-2, 6-4 (F w/ Tsonga today in Shanghai) - Djokovic Is not losing his #1 spot before 2017 IMO.***
Who's supposed to take it away; Kei, Raonic, Dimitrov? They all have the talent, but while waiting for them to get things to click, they're breaking down like they have calcium deficiencies! Nole's superior conditioning excels even Ivan Lendl's IMO! He's like Gumby out there contorting his body into positions to keep a point going! All I could do was laugh watching him dissect Andy in the 1st set today in Shanghai! It was clinical, but you never know; I already asked how hard he'd work since DC coming up! People say it's a month away, but it's going to be draining in London w/ the YEC and DC back to back! ;-)
***Nole most titles in Shanghai Masters (3), check. The 1st player to beat Murray 20 X's, check.
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So Djokovic wins his 57th career title in Shanghai, 25th Masters and 9th title of '15. His record since the USO is simply amazing. - If Nole wins the WTF or both he will have the best season on record; going back to Rod Laver in '69. Best seasons by Title Shares, Open Era ('69-present):
68 Laver, '69
66 Federer, '06
62 DJOKOVIC, '15
62 Djokovic, '11
62 Federer, '04
58 Federer, '07
54 Nadal, '10
52 McEnroe, '84
52 Borg, '79
50 Wilander, '88
50 Connors, '74
48 Nadal, '13
48 Sampras, '94
48 Lendl, '86
48 Borg, '80
44 Federer, '05
44 Sampras, '97
44 Lendl, '87
40 Nadal, '08
As you can see, the list is dominated by current players w/ Sampras only squeezing in 2 yrs and Agassi just off the map.
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Nole stands alone w/ most GS/1000 Masters Finals in a season (11? w/ 1 more 1000 Masters event in his schedule). Most Masters 1000 finals in season (7 w/ 1 more Masters 1000 to go). If he win Paris, he'll stand-alone w/ 6 1000 Masters titles in 1 year... After his win in Shanghai, he's currently holding the WTF, 3/4 of the Slams, and 6/9 of the masters! That's 71% of the big tournaments. Might be a while until that record is broken. For reference, Federer held 57% in '06, & Nadal held 50% in '13.***
***Djokovic is dominating not b/c he's amazing, but b/c he's merely consistent and everyone else is garbage right now. Weakest era of all X. There's absolutely nothing special about Djokovic's game, nor is he doing anything better than 2012-2014. It's just that everyone else is worse.***
ReplyDeleteNole's confidence has soared even though I don't think he's necessarily playing as well as 2011! He's been bludgeoning the ball, taking swipes @ the ball even in defensive positions! He attacked the net effectively and won most of those points w/ deft touch and 'stick!' Djokovic has been very impressive since winning the USO! This is "his X of the year!" Couple more seasons like this and we can legitimately start talking GOAT-dom possibilities!
***But so much of that comes from opponents playing very poor tennis. The competition in '11 was 100x stronger. - ...Can't compare that stuff. In Sampras' era it was much harder to dominate b/c the surfaces were totally different from each other. Same w/ Federer but to a lesser extent.***
You can only play against and on what's being offered at the time you're playing! There are positives and negatives with each era; none any better than the other at the X! We saw the age of Sampras, Agassi, & Courier as a Golden Age; esp. for the USA, but it changed all too soon w/ the intro of the new bloods in Federer, Nadal, & now Djokovic! I still give all due credit to past greats like Tilden, Perry, Gonzales, Rosewall, & Laver, w/ the pro game taking off on the legend of Borg, Connors, & McEnroe! Did I cover it all? ;-)
***ATP Masters 1000 Records, "YEC" - Nole:
2012–'14 3 cons. titles w/ Nastase & Lendl
2012–'14 14 cons. match wins w/ Lendl & Federer
2014 76.1% (51–16) games winning % in 1 tournament
ATP Masters 1000 records:
2007–'13 8 different titles
2007–'12 9 different Finals w/ Federer & Nadal
2007–'15 18 HC titles w/ Federer
2011, '15 5 titles in a single season w/ Nadal
2015 7 finals in a single season
2011-'12, '15 3 yrs reaching 6+ finals
2011-'12 2 cons. yrs reaching 6 Finals
2012–'15 12 cons. Finals Victories
2011 31 cons. match wins
2011, '15 2 yrs winning 5 titles
2011, '14-'15 3 yrs winning 4+ titles
2013–'15 2 streaks of 4 cons. titles
2014–'15 2 cons. yrs winning 4+ titles w/ Federer
2011–'15 5 cons. yrs winning 3+ titles
2007–'13 3 streaks of 3 cons. titles
2011–'15 Retaining titles at 6 different tournaments
2014–'15 3 cons. title defences
2015 Winning the 1st 3 events of a season
2011, '14 - '15 Winning IW – Miami title sweep 3 X's
2008–'15 4 IW Masters titles overall w/ Federer
2012–'13 3 Shanghai Masters titles overall
2012–'13 3 cons. Shanghai Masters titles
2009, '13–'14 3 Paris Masters titles overall w/ Becker & Safin
2013–'14 2 cons. Paris Masters titles
2013-'14 2 yrs winning Paris Masters & YEC back to back
Other records:
2015 13 str. finals in a season.
2015 20+ wins over each of the Big 4
2012, '13, '15 24 match wins vs. top 10 opponents in a single season w/ Nadal
2012, '13, '15 3 yrs winning 24 matches vs. top 10 opps
2011–'13, '15 4 yrs winning 20+ matches vs. top 10 opps
2011–'13 3 cons. yrs winning 20+ matches vs. top 10 opps
2011 5 cons. match wins against world #1 player in Finals (Nadal)
2007 Youngest player to defeat the top 3 players in succession
2009-'10, '12-'15 6 China Open titles
2012-'15 4 cons. China Open titles
2007–'10 4 yrs ended at #3 w/ Connors
2007–'10 4 cons. years ended @ #3
2009 Longest best-of-3 TB sets singles match (by duration) vs. Nadal
2003–'15 83.8% (440–85) HC match winning %
2003–'15 95.6% (593-27) match winning % after winning 1st set
2003–'15 74.5% (143–49) deciding set winning %***
***“I think in terms of the 2 tournaments in b2b wks, this has been the best 2 weeks of my life, my career,” asserted Djokovic, who has now won 17 str. matches and 22 cons. sets. “I think I've played the best tennis ever in these 2 wks in terms of back‑to‑back. Honestly, that's how I felt."
ReplyDelete---
What is most important in determining who is GOAT? I would say:
1)GS Titles
2)H2H against biggest rivals at GS
3)Wks at #1
4)H2H against biggest rivals
4)YE Masters Titles
5)Masters Titles
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The serve and ROS is probably the most important shots in tennis, and here we have a breakdown on the #'s.
Djokovic in '11
Service Records:
•Aces: 343
•Double faults: 143
•1st serves in: 65%
•1st serve pts won: 74%
•2nd serve pts won: 56%
•Break pts faced: 351
•Break pts saved: 65%
•Service games played: 899
•Service games won: 86%
•Service pts won: 68%
Return Records:
•1st serve return pts won: 36%
•2nd serve return pts won: 58%
•Break pt opportunities: 692
•Break pts converted: 48%
•Return games played: 860
•Return games won: 39%
•Return pts won: 45%
•Total pts won: 56%
Djokovic '15
Service Records:
•Aces: 439
•Double faults: 126
•1st serves in: 66%
•1st serve pts won: 75%
•2nd serve pts won: 60%
•Break pts faced: 325
•Break pts saved: 70%
•Service games played: 981
•Service games won: 90%
•Service pts won: 70%
Return records:
•1st serve return pts won: 33%
•2nd serve return pts won: 57%
•Break pt opportunities: 747
•Break pts converted: 44%
•Return games played: 958
•Return games won: 34%
•Return pts won: 43%
•Total pts won: 56%
Summary: Reason why this season will go down as Djokovic's best ever in his career (and maybe in the Open era); he improved his serving #'s even more to absolute elite level of serving. If we take a look at Federer's service stats in his best season and also 1 of the best seasons ever, we can see similar things. He also had 90% hold game, he won 70% of all pts played on his serve just like Djokovic. He saved 70% of the BPs opponents had on Fed's serve, same # for Djoko. Djokovic's improved serve (both 1st and 2nd) along w/ how he can back it up w/ his ground game is why he has been this unbeatable this year and is going for the 2nd best season ever.***
***Djokovic: "I am not worrying now about 2016 nor downgrading soon." Novak Djokovic has 16.785 points and hasn't dropped a single point for a yr, but is not thinking about how much will he have to defend next year. "I am not worried about the next year, there is no room for that, I am enjoying in the current one more. In fact, I am trying to use this best period of my life so my team and I could have only positive emotions. We are all proud of what we have done, it was not only done by me", said Nole. "When the next year arrives, I will think about it, but X's when I was worried about how will I defend the points are long gone. I always try to approach the tournament as any other player - to win the trophy, not to defend it", added the Serbian tennis player. After triumphing in Shanghai, his 9th title this season, Djokovic has 2 wks rest, and then Paris Masters and WTF in London. "I am not thinking about being unbeaten until the end of this year, but it is a possibility. However, I will try to hold onto my philosophy that every next match is the most important", said Novak. Djokovic is currently on a run of 13 cons. finals. X he was stopped before that phase was at the start of this year in Doha. Novak confirmed that he will start the 2016 season in Qatar.***
ReplyDeleteThanks!
***The same older players are gradually declining and the next generation are unable to push them out. This has produced a comfortable paradigm for the very best players who aren't being forced to adapt and change their games to hold off the young guns. We have the same top players playing the same losing game against the elites of the game - they simply hope for a very good day from themselves.
To his credit Djokovic has not stood still, he's plugging holes in his game while maintaining his strengths. The only guy who has truly reinvented his game is Federer, but he shd this 5 yrs ago. Murray has done some good things like bringing in Bjorkman, but despite being very consistent, his game has not evolved tactically. He played the right way in Montreal aided by an off day from Djokovic, but he still tries to counter punch too much.***
I've been saying the same thing for years; feel like I'm beating my head against a wall year after year!
***Tomic and Thiem s/b part of Dimitrov's generation IMO. They aren't really 'young guns' anymore at 22-23. Tomic will be 23 tomorrow so he is definetely not a young gun anymore.***
Funny, the same conversation is going about so called "young guns" on Tennis Frontier! Hilarious, but true! These young guns are in their prime and s/b doing so much better; result-wise! It's 1 thing to lose to the 'Big 4,' but they end up being vulnerable to just about anyone! The talent is there, just not the consistency!
***Yes indeed. The lost generation just keeps on losing to anybody, even to the 2nd tier players of old generation. So I don't buy the argument that 'Big 4' is too strong for the youngsters.
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So true. They basically lose to the grandpa versions of the players that defined the well known "weak eras" that lasted from July 6th of 2003 to January 31st of 2010, and from June 25th to July 8th of 2012. It's either really sad, or just simply hilarious. Either way, it's not particularly impressive.
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...both (Novak and Serena) do to their supposed rivals, i.e., crush them, in the last couple of Rds.***
Even though Serena's won a lot, it was a wonder she even made it to finals; stumbling, bumbling, and dropping sets to kids I'd never heard of before! Nole's a machine, totally professional, and flies under the radar! You can't say that about Serena who has universal acceptance and affection no matter how she behaves on court! She has high profile relationships and has had running feuds w/ rivals!
***Djokovic is 66-2 post USO since 2012 (losses to Fed in '14 Shanghai and Querrey in '12 Paris), w/ 12 titles, and 34 of those wins were against the Top 10.***
ReplyDeleteAlso guaranteed to hold it longer than Nadal and will pass both Rafa and Roger in Masters 1000 titles! Two yrs isn't that long w/ his current dominance! ;-)
***As good as Djokovc had been, this is a poor and weak era. Lost generation of Dimitrov, Raonic & Tomic were disappointing. Kyrgios, Thiem, Coric & Kokkinakis have still not made the big breakthrough into the elite. Nadal has had his worst season ever, Murray's level is not as high as it was when Lendl was his coach, Federer does not have the mental strength and stamina to compete w/ Djokovic on slow courts and all GS's, and Wawrinka is so hot and cold. Delpo has been out for nearly the whole season again and the lack of the strength of the field this year can be illustrated by Nadal in a strong position to finish the year ranked #5. So there have only been 4 players w/ better years.
The standard of tennis was disappointing too. AO Djokovic-Wawrinka III ended in a 5th set bagel, a strange topsy-turvy match that was not the epic we were hoping. RG Nadal-Djokovic had a lot of hype... And it ended in a whimper. Wimbledon final was disappointing as Federer could not bring his level from his previous match. The USO final also lacked quality despite being quite dramatic.
So now if we're talking for best matches of the year, that leaves us w/ RG final Wawrinka-Djokovic and Wimbledob semi Federer-Murray. The former b/c Wawrinka played superbly and the latter b/c Federer played the best he has ever played in years. Neither of them though went to 5 and for them to be the 2 best matches of the year is... Not a great look.
Djokovic has had an excellent year, but the massive gap btw him and the rest of the field has not been fun to watch. We had maybe 2-3 really great matches, but every slam this year has been a boring non-event w/ very few upsets or deep runs by young players. In 2014 we at least had some younger players stepping up and giving us hope that it's finally X but nope. They've gone back into obscurity again.
Murray and Federer might get a few wins here or there, but we need at least 5 contenders for tournements. We need upsets. We need someone new winning or challanging the top players. Also if we're going to have a decline, we need a huge decline. Nadal has had his worst season for years and he's still comfortably sitting in the top 8. So is Ferrer! Still clinching that 8th spot and he's had a terrible season + Injurys.***
I couldn't agree more!
***Rating 2.5 only b/c Federer made it to a few finals at GS and Masters level. Too monotonous, it's 1 man versus the rest. At least in '06 Fed had Nadal to deal w/ on 2 surfaces w/ some classic matches including 1 of the all X best matches in the Rome final. Even Wimby '06 was good w/ 2 tight TB's. '2015 Djoker' had no rival to match the Fedal rivalry of '06. '2016' I'm hoping for Kyrgios and Tomic to break through (at least top 10), but will be hard pressed to topple Djoker who should continue his dominance and finish yet again as YE #1.
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I think this has to be considered Nole best year. It's been consistently great across all surfaces all year long. But someone pointed out, he basically ran out of gas after winning the USO in '11. Furthermore, he made all 4 GS finals. That alone makes this year greater than '11. Majors are the main determinative factor, so losing 1 match that would've given him the CYGS makes this the best year ever for him. Nadal never did what he has done, neither has Agassi, Sampras, Lendl, Becker, Edberg, Wilander, McEnroe or Borg or Connors!! Only Federer and Rocket Rod have done this, but only Roger across all three surfaces. He has won more and more Masters Shields this year, so only Federer in '06 really is up there w/ Novak this year (Laver of course as well).***
***Djokpvic Records:
ReplyDelete-YEC recs-
'11: Qualified the earliest – 18 wks, 6 days
'12–'14: 3 cons titles w/ Năstase 8 Lendl
'12–'14: 14 cons match wins w/ Lendl & Federer
'14 76.1% (51–16) games winning % in 1 tourney
-ATP Masters 1000 recs-
'07–'13 8 different titles
'07–'12 Reached all 9 Masters 1000 finals w/ Federer & Nadal
'07–'15 18 HC titles w/ Federer
'11, '15 5 titles in a single season w/ Nadal
'15 8 finals in a single season
'15 5 HC finals in a single season
'15 8 SF's in a single season w/ Nadal
'11, '12, '15 3 yrs reaching 6+ finals
'11, '12 2 con. yrs reaching 6 finals
'12–'15 12 con. wins in Masters 1000 finals
'11 31 con. match wins
'11, '15 5 Masters 1000 titles in 2 seasons
'11–'15 2 streaks of 5 con. titles
'11, '14–'15 3 yrs winning 4+ titles
'13–'15 3 streaks of 4 con. titles
'14–'15 2 con. yrs winning 4+ titles w/ Federer
'11–'15 5 con. yrs winning 3+ titles
'07–'15 3+ titles at 6 different tourneys
'11–'15 Retaining titles at 6 different tourneys
'15 3 con. title defenses
'15 Won the 1st 3 Masters in a season (IW, Miami, & MC)
'11–'15 Won IW – Miami title double 3 X's
'07 Youngest men's singles player to win Miami (19 yrs, 316 days old)
'08–'15 4 IW Masters titles overall w/ Federer
'12–'15 3 Shanghai Masters titles overall
'12–'13 2 con. Shanghai Masters titles w/ Murray
'09–'14 3 Paris Masters titles overall w/ Becker & Safin
'13–'14 2 con. Paris Masters titles
'13, '14 2 yrs winning Paris Masters and YEC back to back
-Other sig. recs-
'15 Highest # of points accrued in ATP rankings (16,785)
'15 13 str. finals in a season
'15 20+ wins over each other member of the Big 4 (Federer, Nadal & Murray)
'15 25 match wins vs. top 10 ops in a single season
'12, '13, '15 24 match wins vs. top 10 ops in a single season w/ Nadal
'12, '13, '15 3 yrs winning 24 matches vs. top 10 ops
'11–'13, '15 4 yrs winning 20+ matches vs. top 10 ops
'11–'13 3 con. yrs winning 20+ matches vs. top 10 ops
'11 5 con. match wins against world #1 player in finals w/ Nadal
'07 Youngest player to defeat the top 3 players in succession (Roddick, Nadal & Fed)
'15 Most prize money won in a season ($16,041,009)
'09–'15 6 China Open titles
'12–'15 4 con. China Open titles
'07–'10 4 yrs ended @ #3 w/ Connors
'07–'10 4 con. yrs ended at #3
'09 Longest best-of-3 singles match w/ sets TB's (by duration) vs Nadal
'03–'15 83.8% (440–85) HC match winning %
'03–2015 95.6% (593–27) Match winning % after winning 1st set
'03–'15 74.5% (143–49) Deciding set winning %
-GS Year(s) Rec. Accomp. Players-
'15 All 4 Major finals in a season w/ Laver, Federer '10–'13
7 con. HC finals
FO — AO '07–'08 Youngest player to reach the SF's of all 4 Majors (20 yrs, 250 days)
FO — AO 2007–'08 Youngest player to reach all 4 Majors SF's con.
-AO - Wimbledon
'08–'15 3+ titles @ AO & Wimbledon w/ Fed
-USO - FO
'07–'15 3+ r-up finishes @ 2 Majors w/ Fed
AO '12 Longest final (by duration) vs Nadal
AO — USO '05–'15 87.70% (107–15) HC match winning %
-GS Year(s) Rec. Accomp. Players-
AO '08–'15 5 titles overall
AO '11–'13 3 con. titles
AO '08–'15 5 finals overall w/ Edberg & Fed
AO '11–'13 3 con. finals w/ Wilander & Lendl
FO '11–'15 5 con. SF's w/ Fed & Nadal
USO '12 Longest final (by duration) vs Murray
USO '12 Longest TB (by pts – 22) vs Murray***
Thanks for the stats! Nice data!
***Will Djokovic become greater than Nadal?***
ReplyDeleteHe already is better than Nadal! There's no doubt if you check the record! Nadal's major claim to fame is winning on clay; the FO in particular! Even though he owns "the GOAT" in H2H matchup, few pay that much attention; Roger's still the GOAT! Nadal has never defended a title off clay while Nole's defends all of his quite successfully on any surface! After all is said and done, he'll probably own most of the pertinent records including H2H matchups against his rivals, Masters 1000 events, and weeks at #1! He not only will attain these records, he'll probably set them so high no one will aspire to even come close to that level of play!
***Last I checked, Rafa still leads the h2h w/ Novak in matches that are of value.***
For how long is the ?? you s/b asking! When was the last X Rafa beat anyone in the top echelon? He even lost on clay to Murray and Fabio this season; quite embarrassing! The only thing to stop this inevitable shift is injury or a plane crash! You hoping something happens to Nole so he doesn't pass Nadal? Now that w/b desperate thinking!
***Rafa leads the h2h 9-4. You think Novak will beat Rafa 6 X's from now? No chance. Novak can beat this Fed and Murray to win his majors, but Rafa has beaten better versions of all 3 to win his majors. Rafa's 14 majors are worth 20 majors of Djokovic.***
Seek serious professional help dude! I know some Rafa-dites have blinders on, but someone must have gouged out your eyes and continued digging into your brain! ;-)
***If btw now and the end of next year Djokovic wins a 5th WTF, achieves a 5th YE #1, Takes 2 more slams including RG & gets the Masters 1000 record, I'd imagine only the most hardcore Nadal fans would claim they're not at least on = terms. - Djokovic defeated toughest possible final opponents Fed, Rafa and Murray 3 X's each to win 9 out of his 10 Majors. The only exception is Tsonga, but Djokovic was also a Slamless player prior to that encounter. If anyone has a claim of having tough Slam opponents it is Novak. Take care of your own garden before criticizing the other.***
Thank you! I thought people were more rational here, but it was in doubt for a moment w/ comments about Novak not having any competition; what a joke! No one has had it harder among the BIG 3; waiting his turn to show what he could do and some people can't stand it! They are weak w/ excuses made for Fed and Rafa!
***...If Nadal doesn't improve some of his stats, then Djokovic will surpass Nadal even if he doesn't catch up to his 14th majors. You can't only judge majors and talk how much better Nadal was b/c he had Federer back then. Stat-wise Djokovic will become greater, IMO. The rest is subjective and everyone will find an argument to put his own hero on top. B/c I don't see a reason at the moment why he wouldn't win at least 1 slam the next 4 years.***
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novak_Djokovic_career_statistics -
***Lack of FO and slam h2h is killing it for Djoker.***
ReplyDeleteNadal will be the CLAY GOAT and nothing else after having a "potential" losing record vs Nole w/i a year and his "inability" to defend ANY title off his beloved surface! Have you ever heard of such a thing? Even Rafter defended his USO title on HC! After all is said and done, Rafa won't even be in my TOP 5 of all X players due to that lone fact! He'll have more majors than Laver, Borg, Lendl, Connors, & McEnroe, but they have done things Nadal will never achieve; a GS and X titles on all surfaces in every event played! Nadal is still trying to acquire a Miami Open after all these years!
***Nadal is only guy other than Wilander to do SURFACE SLAM. 10 yrs winning a Slam. Slam H2H vs his rivals.***
No one will care 100 yrs down the line! The #'s will be against Nadal in so many ways; being way back in race for #1 in the world, lack of wins on other surfaces aside clay, amd a losing record vs Nole soon!
***...And if you really think Djoker will beat Sampras or Fed's wks at #1, you are REALLY optimistic!***
Who's supposed to knock him off his perch? He only has to hold on for a year and a 1/2; hardly something impossible for Nole unless he wrecks his knee skiing!
***Novak's verging from being "merely" a super good all-X great to becoming a top-tier legend in all of tennis history. Novak's 1 super-dominating year away from entering the GOAT conversation, IMO. If he can repeat his 2015 efforts, he w/b on the very border of GOAT-dom though not quite there. You'd imagine w/ the rest of his career still left he would eventually make it there (though of course you'd still have stronger arguments for Fed). If Novak can somehow pull a CYGS in '16, he'd solidly be in the GOAT conversation: 14 majors, 6 str. majors (only Don Budge pre-Open Era), a CYGS, & very likely another year at #1, w/ some other titles, Masters, & another year's worth of wks at #1.
= Rafa:...14 Majors, 27 Masters, 0 WTF, 1 Olym Sin. Gold, 141 wks World #1 rank.
= Djoko:..10 Majors, 26 Masters, 4 WTF, 1 Olym Sin. Brze, 172 wks World #1 rank.
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Nadal is MUCH better than Djoko on clay. Djoko is MUCH better than Nadal on HC. How that's not obvious?
CLAY:
-Nadal: 47 titles (5 250, 14 500, 19 Masters, 9 Slams)
-Djoko: 11 titles (4 250, 7 Masters)
HARD:
-Djoko: 44 titles (2 250, 12 500, 19 Masters, 4 WTF, 7 Slams)
-Nadal: 16 titles (2 250, 2 500, 8 Masters, 1 OG, 3 Slams)
OVERALL:
-Nadal: 67 titles > Djoko: 58 titles
-Nadal: 14 slams > Djoko: 10 Slams
-Djoko: 4 WTF > Nadal: 0 WTF
-Nadal: 27 Masters > Djoko: 26 Masters
-Nadal: 41 tier 1 + OG > Djoko: 40 tier 1
-Djoko: 172 wks at #1 > Nadal: 141 wks
But bear in mind that Djoko is a year younger. Personally, I find their overall records mighty close (bar WTF). Which means that we need the next few years to make a clear-cut decision about who's better than whom. Way too close to call it now while they're still active.***
A year? You're going to make an issue of 'a year' after ignoring the aged seniority of Roger who's considerably older during the Fedal rivalry run!
***The split btw surfaces' even more striking if you draw a comparison: (* = HC, ^ = clay, ^^= grass)
AO: Djoko > Nadal (5 > 1)*
IW: Djoko > Nadal (4 > 3)*
Miami: Djoko > Nadal (5 > 0)*
M-C: Nadal > Djoko (8 > 2)^
Rome: Nadal > Djoko (7 > 4)^
3rd clay: Nadal > Djoko (4 > 1)^
RG: Nadal > Djoko (9 > 0)^
W: Djoko > Nadal (3 > 2)^^
Canada: Djoko > Nadal (3 + 1F > 3)*
Cincy: Nadal > Djoko (1 > 0)*
USO: Djoko > Nadal (2 + 4F > 2 + 1F)*
1st fall: Djoko > Nadal (3 > 1)*
Paris: Djoko > Nadal (4 > 0)*
WTF: Djoko > Nadal (4 > 0)*
Nadal dominates the 4 clay events. Djoko dominates the rest (w/ the exception of Cincy. Djoko actually has 5 finals in Cincy. Talk about a curse...)***
***Most GS Titles:
ReplyDelete1. Roger Federer 17 (career slam)
2. Pete Sampras 14
= Rafael Nadal 14 (career slam)
4. Björn Borg 11
5. Novak Djokovic 10
6. Andre Agassi 8 (career slam)
= Ivan Lendl 8
= Jimmy Connors 8
9. John McEnroe 7
= Mats Wilander 7
GS Finals:
1. Roger Federer 27
2. Rafael Nadal 20
3. Ivan Lendl 19
4. Pete Sampras 18
= Novak Djokovic 18
6. Björn Borg 16
7. Jimmy Connors 15
= Andre Agassi 15
Cons. GS Finals:
1. Roger Federer 10
2. Roger Federer 8
3. Rafael Nadal 5
4. Andre Agassi 4
= Rod Laver 4
= Novak Djokovic 4*
= Novak Djokovic 4
8. Jimmy Connors 3
= Andy Murray 3
= Björn Borg 3
= Björn Borg 3
= Björn Borg 3
= Ivan Lendl 3
= John McEnroe 3
= Ivan Lendl 3
= Ivan Lendl 3
= Mats Wilander 3
= Jim Courier 3
= Jim Courier 3
= Pete Sampras 3
= Rafael Nadal 3
GS SF's:
1. Roger Federer 38
2. Jimmy Connors 31
3. Novak Djokovic 28
= Ivan Lendl 28
5. Andre Agassi 26
6. Pete Sampras 23
= Rafael Nadal 23
8. John McEnroe 19
= Stefan Edberg 19
9. Boris Becker 18
10. Björn Borg 17
Cons. GS SF's:
1. Roger Federer 23
2. Novak Djokovic 14
3. Ivan Lendl 10
4. Novak Djokovic 7*
5. Ivan Lendl 6
= Nadal 6
7. = Andy Murray 5
= Boris Becker 5
9. Roger Federer 4
= Rod Laver 4
= Tony Roche 4
= John McEnroe 4
= Andre Agassi 4
= Jim Courier 4
= Nadal 4
GS QF's:
1. Roger Federer 46
2. Jimmy Connors 41
3. Agassi 36
4. Novak Djokovic 34
= Ivan Lendl 34
6. Pete Sampras 29
= Rafael Nadal 29
8. John McEnroe 26
= Stefan Edberg 26
10. Boris Becker 23
11. Björn Borg 21
Cons. GS QF's:
1. Roger Federer 36
2. Novak Djokovic 26*
3. Ivan Lendl 14
= Andy Murray 14
5. Rafael Nadal 11
6. Pete Sampras 10
All 4 Slams in a Year:
Rod Laver '69
3 Slams in a Year:
Jimmy Connors '74
Mats Wilander '88
Roger Federer '04
Roger Federer '06
Roger Federer '07
Rafael Nadal '10
Novak Djokovic '11
Novak Djokovic '15
All 4 Finals in a Year:
Roger Federer '06
Roger Federer '07
Roger Federer '09
Novak Djokovic '15
Rod Laver '69
All 4 SF's in a Year:
Rod Laver '69
Ivan Lendl '87
Roger Federer '05
Roger Federer '06
Roger Federer '07
Roger Federer '08
Roger Federer '09
Rafael Nadal '08
Novak Djokovic '11
Novak Djokovic '12
Novak Djokovic '13
Novak Djokovic '15
Andy Murray '11
Most cons. matches won at 1 GS event:
1. Björn Borg (Wimbledon), 41
2. Roger Federer (Wimbledon), 40 (not 41 b/c walkover of '07)
= Roger Federer (USO), 40 (not 41 b/c of walkover)
4. Rafael Nadal (FO), 35
5. Pete Sampras (Wimbledon), 31
Most GS match wins:
1. Roger Federer 297
2. Jimmy Connors 233
3. Andre Agassi 224
4. Ivan Lendl 222
5. Pete Sampras 204
YEC's:
1. Roger Federer 6
2. Ivan Lendl 5
= Pete Sampras 5
4. Novak Djokovic 4
5. Ilie Nastase 3
= John McEnroe 3
= Boris Becker 3
Most YEC Finals:
1. Federer 9
= Ivan Lendl 9
2. Boris Becker 8
3. Pete Sampras 6
4. Ilie Năstase 5
5. Bjorn Borg 4
= John McEnroe 4
= Andre Agassi 4
= Novak Djokovic 4
9. Lleyton Hewitt 3
Most Wks at #1:
1. Roger Federer 302
2. Pete Sampras 286
3. Ivan Lendl 270
4. Jimmy Connors 268
5. Novak Djokovic 171*
6. John McEnroe 170
7. Rafael Nadal 141
8. Björn Borg 109
Cons. Wks at #1:
1. Roger Federer (1) 237
2. Jimmy Connors (1) 160
3. Ivan Lendl (1) 157
4. Pete Sampras (1) 102
5. Jimmy Connors (2) 84
6. Pete Sampras (2) 82
7. Ivan Lendl (2) 80
8. Lleyton Hewitt (1) 75
9. Novak Djokovic (1) 66*
10. John McEnroe (1) 58
Year End #1:
1. Sampras 6
2. Federer 5
= Connors 5
4. McEnroe 4
= Lendl 4
6. Nadal 3
= Djokovic 4
Most ATP Titles:
1. Jimmy Connors 109
2. Ivan Lendl 94
3. Roger Federer 88
4. John McEnroe 77
5. Rafael Nadal 66
6. Björn Borg 64
= Pete Sampras 64
8. Guillermo Vilas 62
9. Andre Agassi 60
10. Djokovic 55
11. Boris Becker 49
Most Master Series or equivalent win:
1. Rafael Nadal 27
2. Novak Djokovic 26
3 Roger Federer 24
4. Ivan Lendl 22
5. John McEnroe 19
6. Andre Agassi 17
= Jimmny Connors 17
8. Bjorn Borg 15
9. Boris Becker 13
10. Pete Sampras 11
= Andy Murray 11***
* - concurrently active
***I woudn't be surprised if Rafa never beat Djokovic again. Terrible matchup.
ReplyDelete---
Nope, the terrible matchup is Roger versus Nadal, and the misfortune of playing most of their matches on clay. Roger is clearly the most talented & > player than Nadal, but their H2H is dismal by Fed's perspective. Fed matches up perfectly well against Nole, but has a 6 yr age disadvantage.
This age factor favored Fed in '06-'08, but ever since Nole has had the distinct advantage. Yet he still lost 3 X's to him this year, so far.
---
Djokovic & Lendl: There seem to be a lot of similarities in their games. Both were rock solid, excellent fh+bh combo, solid serve, solid volleys, tough mentally, mechanical styles. Both had to wait for the other greats to falter to win their chunk of big titles (Borg, Connors, McEnroe for Lendl & Federer, Nadal for Djokovic), both had similar careers - did great in Masters, underachieved in the Slams (Lendl lost 11 Slam finals!); but it seems that Djokovic could easily add a few more.
---
In which categories can Djokovic finish ahead of Nadal?
1) Already ahead or tied:
-a. Wks at #1: he's up 143-141
-b. Yrs at #1: tied at 3-3, ...big lead for #4. YE #1: '15
-c. WTFs: 5-0
2) Can catch up:
-a. Masters Series titles: Nadal leads 27-26, gap in finals now 41-38
-b. Career H2H: w/ Nadal 23-23, Nole has won 13 of last 20
-c. Career titles: Nadal leads... At the end of '15, Nole overtook Nastase leads 59-58. If Djokovic wins 6 titles, he will overtake Agassi, Vilas, Borg, & Sampras
3) Not much chance:
-a. GS titles: ...if he wins no further titles. 14-10
-b. Career winning %: Djokovic finishing ahead no longer impossible. 82.74 - 82.45
Other:
-a. Wins over top 10 opps: Djokovic 151-133 - Nadal 158-136
-b. Career match wins: Djokovic 686-767 Nadal
-c. Slam match wins: Djokovic 207-198 Nadal
-d. Slam finals: Djokovic 18-20 Nadal
-e. Slam semi's: Djokovic 28-23 Nadal
-f. Slam qf's: Djokovic 34-29 Nadal
---
Djokovic Era - Who has he "hurt the most" - Federer, Murray, Nadal?
Federer:
-defeated him in 6 GS matches incl. 3 GS finals, 3 GS semi's
-defeated him in 2 YEC Finals
-defeated him in 4 Masters 1000 finals
-stood in the way of 2 YE #1s
-stood in the way of 1 YE #2
Murray:
-defeated him in 6 GS matches incl. 3 GS finals, 2 GS semi's
-defeated him in 5 Masters 1000 finals
-stood in the way of 1 YE #1
Nadal:
-defeated him in 3 GS matches incl. 3 GS finals
-defeated him in 1 YEC Finals
-defeated him in 6 Masters 1000 finals
-stood in the way of 1 YE #1***
Thanks!
***...Rafa was also younger, fuzzier and more daring.***
ReplyDelete"That was then, this is now" as they say! Funny coming out of me since I hark back 40+ years all the X, but I feel like we're seeing something special; on par w/ Fed's dominance 10 yrs ago! Nole is a fine-tuned machine and won't ever get "the love" as Roger and Rafa get on a routine basis! I normally can do w/o human-backboards, but The Djoker is quite entertaining; right up there w/ Borg! Only X will tell if he can complete the deal and finish w/ most if not all the records!
***Whats so impressive about Novaks '11 is, not that he won 3 Slams + 5 Masters, but the fact he beat Nadal so many X's. And this was prime kick ass world #1 Nadal. Here's how great Novak was:
AO def. Fed in SF & Murray in F
IW def. Fed in SF & Nadal in F
Miami def. Nadal in F
Madrid def. Nadal in F
Rome def. Murray in SF, Nadal in F
Winbledon def. Nadal in F
USO def. Federer in SF, Nadal in F
Can anyone show me another player that had more dominating year, w/ such ridiculosly hard opponents.***
True that Roger can only play who's in front of him at the X, but a # of these players will wind up "footnotes" rather than substantive challengers! I see it both ways & agree Nole's had to endure more w/ Fed & Nadal, but rationale will go in the direction of who's making the argument unfortunately! ;-)
***...Hewitt, Safin, Agassi, Ferrero, Roddick are all Slam champions. Nalbandian has a Masters Cup and a Slam final; known how high his top level is. Beating 34 yo Fed is not beating an ATG anymore than beating a '04 Roddick at Wimby is. ATG rarely clash in their primes anyways the last decade+. That's what made the 80's and early 90's the best era ever
---
According to The Tennis Base; Top 10 Sns of all-X:
1. Djokovic '15
2. Gonzales '56
3. Federer '06
4. Laver '69
5. Rosewall '63
6. Laver '62
7. Laver '67
8. Djokovic '11
9. McEnroe '84
10. Federer '07
---
Prize $$$ Leaders - Career Earning as of Nov. '15
1. Swit. R. Federer $97,303,556 '15
2. Serb. N. Djokovic $94,050,053 '15
3. Spain R. Nadal $75,888,125 '15
4. US P. Sampras $43,280,489 '03
5. UK A. Murray $42,435,316 '15
6. US A. Agassi $31,152,975 '06
Per Single Sn.:
1. Serb. Novak Djokovic $21,646,145 '15
2. Spain R. Nadal $14,570,935 '13
3. Serb. N. Djokovic $14,250,527 '14
4. Serb. N. Djokovic $12,803,737 '12
5. Serb. N. Djokovic $12,619,803 '11
6. Serb. N. Djokovic $12,447,947 '13
7. Spain R. Nadal $10,171,998 '10
8. Swit. R. Federer $10,130,620 '07
9. Swit. R. Federer $9,343,988 '14
10. Swit. R. Federer $8,768,110 '09
Today's $10 isn't the same as 1980's $10. ... Also, prize $$$ keeps on increasing and so newer stars will tend t/b at the top of these lists. That doesn't mean they're better players or had a better year than some of the older players. - The way prize $$$ has increased over the years, it's hard to get a good grasp of it all. Still, Nole's $21 M is so far out in front, it's nuts. Just more proof of his '15 sn. being maybe the best ever.***
Just a few short yrs ago, Roger was heading all these lists! Now he's being pushed down; sorta like Martina N. by Graf!
***The ITF may award the title of World Champion, in the opinion of the Board of Directors, are the most outstanding players in any 1-yr.***
ReplyDelete...was created and run to rival the WTF; "The GS Cup!" IIRC, the 8th man didn't make it due to a FO winner, Guadio falling down to #9! Agassi was knocked out!
***Federer wasn't close to being in his prime in '11, but Nadal most certainly was and he had the finals to show for it. He beat more top 10 players in '11 than '10, was better against the field (69-9 v 69-10 the year before against players other than Djokovic) and had tougher draws en route to reaching the slam finals that he did, beating Federer, Murray thrice, Delpo, Roddick, Isner, Soderling, Fish, Nalby, and Ljubicic. Only once was he taken to 5 sets in any of those matches. He was better at Wimbledon pre-final, and was destroying the competition at the USO, breaking Roddick 8 X's, while also taking Murray to the cleaners (2nd str. fast court slam he did that). Rafa had a superb spring HC season, routined Federer and nearly won both IW & Miami, taking a zoning Djokovic to a final set TB in the latter tourney. Of course, in '10 he showed much better form on clay against the available competition. ...I'm interested to know how it's reasonable to think that Djokovic had to wait for Nadal to run out of steam to usurp him? Nadal might not have been as great in '11 as he was the year prior, but Hell, he wasn't THAT far off. Once Djokovic hit his stride it was clear that he was a better player than Peakdal could hope t/b on HC's or indoors, which comprises 60+% of the tour, and was at least a formidable enough foe on grass to warrant a comparison btw the 2. If you concede that Nole's simply better on HC's, indoors and possibly grass, it would make sense that, even given Nadals clay court dominance, that Djokovic at his best could overtake a peak Nadal in rankings.
---
...Djokovic is the so called origami-man who finds positional holes in opponent’s game, exploits them, and strikes the ball in those holes. ...It’s like in most cases no matter what Djoko’s rivals try to do against him on the court, he has the answer to most ??'s. ...Nole wasn’t balanced enough before taking on Becker. Basically he was just wasting his talent until Becker revealed him the blueprint and increased Nole’s tennis IQ to 1 of the highest levels in tennis history.
---
BTW Nole & Roger in Finals:
'07 Can. Masters 1000 HC - Djokovic
USO GS HC - Federer
'09 Cinci. Masters 1000 HC - Federer
Swiss Indoors 500 HC (i) - Djokovic
'10 Swiss Indoors 500 Hard (i) - Federer
'11 Dubai Chps 500 HC - Djokovic
'12 Cinci. Masters 1000 HC - Federer
ATP World Tour Finals YEC HC (i) - Djokovic
'14 IW Masters 1000 HC - Djokovic
Wimbledon GS Grass - Djokovic
ATP WTF YEC Hard (i) - Djokovic
'15 Dubai Chps 500 HC - Federer
IW Masters 1000 HC - Djokovic
Italian 1000 Clay - Djokovic
Wimbledon GS Grass - Djokovic
Cinci. Masters 1000 HC - Federer
USO GS HC - Djokovic
ATP WTF YEC HC (i) - Djokovic
Overall: 11 - 6 Djokovic
Since '14: 9 -2 Djokovic
---
Djokovic defeated Federer in the USO final, clinching his 10th GS and becoming the 8th man to win double digit titles. It was his 3rd major of the year and pulled him ever closer to the mark set by Federer – 17. He's showing no signs of slowing down, in fact, he's playing the best tennis of his career – maybe of all-X.
---
Djokovic’s peak, which happened following his SF win at the '15 FO's the highest of all-X – just ahead of Federer’s and Borg’s. His current level of play is unmatched, & if he sustains it, will be the most impressive display of men’s tennis EVER.
Federer played (and dominated) some great players in his prime, i.e. Andre Agassi, a young Nole. Arguably, Novak has had it much more difficult.; can see that Nole has had to compete w/ Nadal & Murray in their primes, as well as a resurgent Federer.
There was truly a “Big 4” and Novak has come out on top.***
***Nole-can he become > than Fed on 3 surfaces? Djokovic's 2 slams behind & 1 WTF behind, but 1 MASTERS ahead. The Masters, being 1/2 the worth of slams, make up for 1 slam. So Djovak merely has to win 1 more HC slam and 1 more WTF. If he gets to the 2nd wk of 2 more HC slams they will add up to 1 HC slam so he's done. Same with WTF.
ReplyDeleteClay: Obviously Djokvak has all the Masters titles X X's except Madrid. Fed not even close. B/c of that, the lack of FO is easily glossed over. Novak will have to win the FO, which he can. Now the tricky part: Grass-There are no Masters on this surface, therefore the importance of this surface s/b 1/2'd. Roger has 3.5 W (rd down to 3) & Nole has 1.5 (rd ^ to 2). ...Therefore Novak's true # of Wimbs is 47/17 * 2 = 5.53 Wimbs (rd ^ to 6). We have already est. that the true value of Fed's Wimbs is 3; so by some measures that Nole's already ahead.
---
Roger won 15 thru Novak's age & 2 after, but he had to contend w/ Rafa, Novak, & Andy. Who does Novak have to contend w/ going forward? Who are the best players of the next gen? According to my 5-yr gen system, the top 5 players of each of the last few gens are:
'79-83: Federer, Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Ferrero
'84-88: Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Del Potro (maybe Berdych/Tsonga)
'89-93: Nishikori, Raonic, Dimitrov, Thiem, Sock
'94-98: Kyrgios, Coric, Zverev, Chung, Kokkinakis
So compare the gen of players younger than Roger's to the gen younger than Novak. It isn't even close. At best, the players of the '89-93 group are about as good as the 4th to 8th best players of the '84-88 gen....and they're not even at that point yet. The field is wide open right now and looks t/b for at least another year or 2.
But that's just it: Novak may not age like Roger. Novak won't get better than he's now, and will probably start sliding a bit over the next 2 yrs, w/ steeper decline someX after. So his window's really '16-18 for tallying up the Slams. After that, all bets are off. In '19, he'll be 31-32 and we just don't know what the scene w/b like - maybe (hopefully) we'll have seen the emergence of the next group of stars.***
All we can do is let the future unfold to become the new history when it comes to the play and results of upcoming stars! We're always hopeful, but I'm still waiting for the new crop to even stay "on court" more than a 2 months! We all know about the grind of travel, comp, etc., but these players are "doing it to themselves!" The sport tried to protect children from coming "on board" a lit'l early; Austin, Jaeger, Basset, and so many others who "broke down!" But greedy "fame HO's" can't be made to see reason and petition to get their brats on the circuit ASAP; "those endorsement deals won't happen practicing and waiting our turn!"
It's not that the players are brittle or injury prone as much as them pushing the limits when the tour tried to slow things down w/ the weight of balls, racket restrictions, & courts homogenized! Reminds me of players like Arias & Krickstein who's whole game revolved around their forehands; why be surprised they wound up w/ arm problems? If you don't have a balanced attack "you" lose 1 way or the other; either deficient play or body betrayal! I have lit'l sympathy for any of them since $$'s so out of whack! There isn't a need for "money grabs" like the IPTL in the off season! Nole made over $20 M and told them "forget it!" Fed will shorten his sched. since match vs Nole impossible! If the rest of the tour plays, more power to them, but for Roger, Serena, and several other "old X'rs" to whine about being tired or hurt, I'm going to laugh in their faces!
***Tennis Greatness Index (12/10/15, / Wiki, the month Djokovic surpassed Borg)
ReplyDelete1. Federer 464 (out of 500 pts)
2. Sampras 392
3. Nadal 360
4. Lendl 355
5. Connors 349
6. Djokovic 313
7. Borg 310
---
GS titles (The pts are doubled for GS category. Players winning CGS get 1 bonus GS count.):
1. Federer 17+1=18 (200 pts)
2. Nadal 14+1=15 (167)
2. Sampras 14 (156)
4. Borg 11 (122)
5. Agassi 8+1=9 (100)
__________
Wks @ #1:
1. Federer 302 (100 pts)
2. Sampras 286 (95)
3. Lendl 270 (89)
4. Connors 268 (89)
5. McEnroe 170 (56)
6. Nadal/Djokovic 141 (47)
8. Borg 109 (36)
__________
Winning % against Top 10 ops:
1. Borg 70.00% (100 pts)
2. Nadal 67.54% (96)
3. Federer 65.49% (94)
4. Becker 65.05% (93)
5. Lendl 64.32% (92)
6. Djokovic 63.98% (91)
7. Sampras 63.59% (91)
8. McEnroe 57.24% (82)
---
Was 2015 the greatest year ever in men’s tennis? McEnroe had an incredible year in '84, losing only 3 X's and winning 96% of his matches. But he avoided clay, his weakest surface, playing only 2 matches on the dirt and losing the FO, devastatingly, after going up 2 sets against his arch-rival, Lendl. Connors went 99-4 in '74, but was barred from playing the FO b/c of his involvement w/ WTT. Federer reached all 4 GS finals in '06, won 12 titles overall, and lost only 5 matches. Four of those losses were on clay to Nadal (the other was in Cinci. to 18 yo Murray). A remarkable season, and most observers consider it the 2nd-greatest in the modern history of the men’s game—2nd only to Laver’s accomplishing the GS in '69; something that no other Open-era men’s player has done.
But neither Federer 9 yrs ago nor Laver at the beginning of the Open era faced the competition or had to play the kind of grueling tennis Djokovic did to accomplish what he did this year. Of the Top 10 players in '06 that Federer faced, only 2 had GS wins: Nadal, who dominated him, and Roddick who had won 1 Slam. Others who finished in the Top 10 that year included Ljubičić, González, & Ančić. The Golden Age had yet to arrive. And while Fed had some year, he accumulated only about half the A.T.P. point total Djokovic just amassed. To say that Laver also had an easier X of it in '69 is, of course, to get more speculative. True, Laver played doubles as well as singles back then, and, b/c the TB to settle a set tied at 6–6 was not yet part of most tournaments, he occ. found himself grinding out sets 12–10 or 22–20. But men’s tennis then was serve and volley, w/ points usually over in 3 or 4 shots; if that. The game was not as physical and fast—as athletic—as today’s game. And the draws were not talent-deep: tennis was dominated by the Australians and the Americans and was not yet a truly global sport. This year, against much tougher competition, Djokovic—the son of a Serbian pizza-parlor owner—went 30–5 against Top 10 players, including 6–1 against the world #2 (Murray), and ended the season in London at the A.T.P. WTF's by beating Nadal in the semis and Fed in the finals; each in straight sets—something no player had ever done.***
It's Nole's confidence in not overplaying to beat Rafa! Even when he hit winners, it wasn't anything that looked like he "took chances!" They were measured, controlled points that made Rafa look like he was "totally at sea!" He was as helpless as a rookie in the WTF match I just re-watched! It was great!
ReplyDelete***Well said. 2010-14 battles were more like clashes of Titans. But '15 was indeed a pure dominance. - Nobody can walk through slams like Fed & Murray. They are just too good for the rest of the tour.***
This never happened "back in the day!" Even Connors, Borg, & McEnroe couldn't avoid upsets someX! I've been saying this current crop are gutless for 10 yrs; unable to finish, even w/ MP's in hand! Disgusting! It's not like I want upsets, but for the same players to win all the majors and Masters, what else can you say about the "also-rans, qualifiers, wildcards, & never-weres?" Only Rafa has been vulnerable and Murray to some extent of late get all kind empathy sighting injuries, surgery, etc! They're still way ahead of the rest and I just can't believe this persists year after year!
***Youngsters have been ruined looking at "Big 4" and what needs t/b done in order to win slam. When "Big 4" start to slow down, youngsters will start to bite.***
I said that too a few yrs ago; esp. after Roger won his last Wimbledon in '12! Now 3-4 yrs older and he's still allowed to make final after final! ...Rafa's been allowed to leave the tour for extended periods and come back as if nothing's changed! That was something else that didn't happen much in the past; but now all too common to see! Today's stars all have the strokes and athletic ability, but they're twisted in the head and don't take advantage of "time" passing on the "Big 4!"
***...The way Nole is playing now, he's on pace to break all kinds of records. But whether or not he can maintain the form for the X he would need to do that is unlikely; injuries, age, other players making adjustments etc. These things come into play no matter what any dominant player does to avoid them.***
When Nole has serving problems, he just begins to spin them in and back it up w/ an aggressive groundie! At the WTF a few wks ago, he missed all his 1st serves w/ new balls; still won routinely running Nadal back and forth, drop-shotting him, then lobbing over his bead for winners!
***...Novak had a lone win til Fed officially declined and he was thrashed like a 'step child' repeatedly by both Fed & Rafa.***
...I was a big fan of Roger's; found little fault w/ his whole act! The longer he hangs on though; disappoints me on par w/ Michelle Kwan in "figure skating!" After '01, she was pretty much done, but hanging on for another 4 yrs, she stunted the development of the next tier of stars! She skated well enough to hold on marginally, but didn't do much else beside take "Nat'ls;" a lot of the X more charity than her actually winning it! The same can be said about Roger now, playing well enough t/b more of an annoyance than actually threatening to do something substantive! I'm sorry, but his last real run was 3 yrs ago! He's always had trouble w/ Rafa and Murray having his # at the beginning of his career; 8-3 before a total reversal of late! That told me it was more the mental side of the game weighing on Murray and he's being stunted like the rest of these gutless wonders by Roger and Nole now! It's not like I'm looking for upsets, but it's getting frustrating seeing "The Big 4" owning the tour; even w/ extended absences from the game due to injury or "under the table" suspensions b/c of PED usage! ...Will Kei, Milos, Dimitrov, and all the rest step up this next season and finally put that final nail in Fed's coffin?
***Novak w/b celebrated when he hangs up his racket. ...Glory-hunting tennis fans don't want him to win b/c they were fed the Federer/Nadal love affair for so long and believed it. It's Federer fans who are quite pompous and ignorant at the same X, and who can't stand to see this guy dominating the game. They fear Novak, not hate him. The media will also play sides and the whole ball boy situation was over the top and they started the same thing at Wimbledon to throw Djokovic off his stride. It didn't work. Sampras was regarded as boring and Agassi the cool guy w/ a great personality. Now that they are retired, Agassi's on the back burner and Sampras is celebrated more since he was indeed a better champion. Sampras' regarded as a King now even though he wasn't then. The same thing will happen w/ Novak. The next gen. will want to know who this guy is b/c he did something that was almost impossible and did it pretty damn well. - Connors > than Borg, Sampras, Nadal & Djokovic?***
ReplyDeleteI can only guess some people never saw these players at the height of their powers! Clips will never do justice to the skill and confidence of Laver, Borg, and Sampras and how they ruled their eras! Some comedy personalities joke about kids don't think history is important if it happened before they were born! So sad!
***Yes basically. I've never seen Laver play, but have seen re-runs of Borg, who was amazing. I've seen Sampras win at least 1/2 of his Slams. Just deadly. I wish I had seen Laver, but even w/o seeing him, I know he's the last guy to win a CYGS. Some people don't really know these players or what they contributed and only talk nonsense. - In terms of greatness, Borg is a peer of Sampras & Nadal. Djokovic's not there yet, though he's getting closer.***
2016 will change all of that! I watch his play from this past fall and just can't believe how in control he was when competing against Nole, Roger, & Andy! It was almost embarrassing him jerking them around the court, running down all their best shots, then putting them on the defensive from the baseline and net! The serve has definitely improved, but even when he falters w/ it, the groundies are deadly; Rafa standing there pretty much helpless and not knowing where to go! ;-)
***If Djokovic has another '15, he will be neck and neck w/ the 3 I mentioned in my own rankings. But change can happen quickly. His serve this year has been a major weapon. It will be the key shot for him as he ages. - He didn't slow down in the fall of '15, that's for sure. If anything, he tightened his grip. The serve has improved, but what I noticed is that he won the USO Final w/ no serve. He wasn't hitting or placing it well and IDK if that was nerves/crowd, but he still won in 4 sets. - Djokovic is primed to pass Borg w/ 1 more Slam. I know the Legend of Borg is huge, but as far as accomplishments, he's already > than Borg in every category except Slams.***
It's not like I'm this huge fan of his game, but Nole doesn't offend me the way other baseliners can; esp. Rafa w/ his whole act of "entitlement!" Murray, Rafa, Ferrer, and Berdych are players that s/b doing more to win rather than hoping their opponent has a heart attack and drops! They're boring and won't win much against Nole playing as they do! ;-)
***I just always liked the way Nole struck the ball on both sides. I was a fan of his ball striking and shot making. I remember when it was around '09 and he was taking sets from Rafa on clay and I said then, "this guy is no 1 Slam wonder." I think Murray is good but is too defensive, Berdych has talent but implodes, and Ferrer is not equipped to handle the top guys. Rafa is a clay monster, but can be exposed on other surfaces, esp. when he's content on long rallies.***
***I see Novak as largely an upgraded Lendl.***
ReplyDeleteTrue enough, but he's surpassed Ivan in so many ways; the least of it being he owns 3 Wimbledons to Lendl's 0! Ivan does have his 3 FO's, but I think he'd trade them all in for 1 Wimbledon; his obsession knowing he had to work extra hard to achieve that goal! It's easier for Nole now w/ the tech, fitness programs, and of course "homogenized courts," history won't care! Djovovic so far ahead, it's all gravy now; sorta like Roger's Wimbledon in '12! I think Nole will add a lot more to his record in his "waning" years b/c the rest of the tour is so gutless and weak in comparison! They have the ability, but something inside isn't translating to more wins over the top echelon! We can only hope the "new bloods" step up this coming year and make it hard for Rafa & Roger to hold their positions at the top of the rankings!
***Mmm, let's not go overboard mate. - How's it all gravy for Stretch from here on out?***
Dispute what; my chiding of the current situation on the tour or the fact Nole's already ahead of Ivan? Who predicted Nole would even make double digits in majors w/ the love-fest of Fedal was rampant? The main stream media glorified their rivalry; which wasn't a rivalry really since Rafa had pretty much owned Roger, "lock, stock, & barrel!" The last several yrs it's been real ugly w/ Roger maybe snagging 1 match! Nole had not only gotten to 10 w/ ease, he's about to OWN records outside of majors like his dominance in the Masters! What record won't be his by next season?
***...Djokovic quite easily grabbed AO-'08 trophy by taking out peak Fed & peak Stronga, but then he saw Rafa started peaking and becoming all-surfaces beast, so foxy Djoker decided that until peak Nadal was schooling the tour in 2008-'10 seasons, it w/b rational to take it easy in terms of his tennis efforts in order to save his mileage and mental resources. He's 27 and we're about the enter the Djokovic era, so much X left, you can't even imagine how much X it actually is. Michael Jordan won his 1st chp at the age of 28.
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I think Djokovic had it tough for most of his career. His '11 is what sets him apart from the other players mentioned; even Borg. That year he absolutely destroyed an ATG in his prime, w/ Fed still playing at a very high level; Murray being very tough. I remember watching those wins against Rafa, and the guy was crushed, he was playing his best and was consistantly losing. Their matches during that 2 to 3 yr stint I think were the highest level I have seen. Rafa & Fed wasnt really a rivalry as everyone knew Rafa wins more often than not; esp. Fed.***
...To this day, Nadal still hasn't won a WTF, a couple Masters events, & worst of all "has never defended a title off the dirt!" Even Borg w/ all those aggressive S & V play won 5 straight Wimbledons, owns a couple Masters YE Chps, & defended a # of titles indoors, on HC, & grass! Rafa can't say that and it doesn't look like it'll change before all is said and done!
***The ITF announced today that Novak Djokovic of Serbia is the '15 ITF World Champions. ...Hingis & Mirza become Women’s Doubles WC; Hingis is an ITF WC 15 yrs after last being named WC in singles in 2000. Djokovic won a career-best 11 titles in '15, ending at #1 in the YE rankings for the 4th X. He won 3 major titles at the AO, Wimbledon & USO, and was runner-up at RG. He was in commanding form on all surfaces, boasting a career-best 82-6 win-loss record during the year. Djokovic said: “It is an honor to be named ITF World Champion for the 5th X. My season was the best of my career w/ many highlights. It inspires me even more to keep on going, and I hope to continue to play at this level in '16.***
***Can Fed, Nadal, Murray, or anyone else pose a real threat to Djokovic's #1 dominance? He has dominated the tour over the last 5 yrs, winning more Slams, Finals & Masters than anyone. In '15 he scarily increased his dom. to win 10 Tour 1 titles, 6 M-1000, WTF & 3 GS's; no other has ever accomplished this.
ReplyDelete-Best seasons since 2000 rankings standardization (% pts of total 4GS+WTF+9 M-1000 possible 100% pts):
1 Djokovic 90.7% 2015 >>> NOLE's best season - 1st place overall...
-Best seasons in Open Era, according to broad top ATP & ITF titles (only 9 M-1000, 1 WTF, 4 GS):
10 Titles - Djokovic-'15
8 Titles - Fed-'06, Djoker-'11
7 Titles - Nadal-'13
6 Titles - Djokovic-'14, 2xFederer-'07-'005, Sampras-'94, 2xLendl-'87-'86, McEnroe-'84, Borg-'79, 2xConnors-'76-'74.
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I guess 30-35 are the new young ages in the men's game? Haven't seen a collection of crappy 20-somethings like this ever?***
This era makes me reminisce about the 70's! Connors & Borg were the 'young guns,' but the rest of the tour had senior citizens in comparison; Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Nastase, Ashe, and so many others around 30+! After the youth movement of the 90's, we didn't think it would happen again, but here we are; "30-somethings" hoarding the rankings!
***Perfect analysis, 80's w/ Becker, Wilander, Edberg & then Chang, Agassi, Sampras. The 80's dropped the avg. age of top 10s to something around ~27. If we compare '75-'85-'95-'05-'15, we would get a U skewed like graph. I think 7/10 were under 25 in '95 & only Agassi was above 30s in '05. W/ Hewitt, then Nadal, & subsequently Djokovic and Murray (both around 19-21 when they broke into Top 4); really thought the 'young guns' had it all. Even Federer was like 20-21 when he entered Top 10. Now, '15 finishes w/ Top 10 being on average ~30 yo... incredible how X's & trends change.***
...and repeat! ;-)
***Djoker has not dominated the tour for the "last 5 yrs." He dominated '11 & '15. He didn't dominate '12, '13 or '14. Sustained dominance was Fed from '04-'09. Who's most likely to challenge Djoker in '16? The default answer is Murray, but I don't hold out a lot of hope for him. Lots of people are thinking his DC win will suddenly transform him like it did Nole, but Djoker is by far the superior player; mentally and tactically. I see Novak declining in '16 and winning 1 slam, possibly 2.***
Wishful thinking, but I think Nole will take that kind of decline; retaining his #1 ranking!
***It's quite possible Roger & Nole will never play in a slam again. ...I think '15 will be Roger's swan song in majors.***
My thoughts exactly! ...Stefan won't be around for support and the only direction Roger can possible go is down! Nole will maintain and take at least 2 majors and retain his #1 ranking and status! The ADS will continue to feature the 'old guard' in Roger and Rafa, but the record books will tell a whole different story IMO!
***The advantage Djokovic has in this position comparing to what Federer and Nadal had in the past is that all of his main rivals are older. Rafa's 1 year older, Fed's 6, Stan's 2; Murray's 1 week older (...not a big diff.). ...Nole a Slam champion back in '10, a WTF winner, a X Masters' winner and a #2 already. None of the youngsters of today have achieved any of this. ...Less dom. than in '15, but still strong. Rafa c/b his biggest threat, but he's not going to transform back to '13 version. ...Whoever says w/ confidence that Federer, Nadal, Murray or Stan will dethrone Novak for whatever reason, then their claims that he'll decline b/c he's approaching 29, "the holy year of declining" makes no sense. All other mentioned players are already there.***
***If you asked any European, they would always say the FO's more prestigious than the USO. If you asked any American they say the USO. ...almost never watch any of the FO (then again I'm biased as I live in US). USO is mentally tougher, but the FO's more physically demanding.***
ReplyDeleteThe days of me waking up at 8 am to start watching the FO has been over for years! Nadal did the tourney no favors since I've never cared for the way he plays the game; or his act on court w/ stalling, toweling off, challenging every call, blah, blah, blah! I'm looking forward to Nole completing his CGS, but it's doubtful I'll get up early to see it; more like the replay later "if he wins!" Even though Borg was my fave player, I still wouldn't watch those boring long 5 setters he had w/ Vilas and Orantes back in the mid '70's; went out to play myself! The women's matches were on tape delay when Martina was competing so I didn't bother w/ the losses to Chris in '85 & '86; too painful! '84 I can watch over and over; Martina murdered Chris in "strt's!" If I were guaranteed a pummeling of Nadal like what was done to him in the 1/4's this past tourney, I'd consider setting my alarm!
***I thought Nadal played a role in making people care about the FO again. Overall FO has lost it's appeal, cause of lack of infrastructure and lack of challenge system. ...I still think Graf has the #'s.***
People neglect to think of how dominant Navratilova was in doubles which gives her 59 majors in the OPEN era; no one else can say that! She's the female Federer w/ tons of records that will NEVER be broken! No matter how many Serena adds, she'll never come close to 59 so forget her, Graf, and anyone who comes along later IMO!
***Another good point I must concede. Nobody thinks about doubles achievements, but many of the recent tennis champions don't have many doubles achievements compared to the champs of previous eras. Laver, Mac, etc. were awesome in doubles too, so surely that gives them a leg up over modern champs.***
Nole truly has taken tennis to another level, just like Lendl 30 yrs ago!
***Exactly! Lendl revolutionised the game back in the 80s w/ his power baseline game. He absorbed the early beatdowns from Mac & Connors, before turning the tables on both of them and carving out his own legacy. In the same way Djoker spent 4 yrs at #3 in Fedal's shadow, before doing the same thing. It's this resilience and fortitude that makes them both so admired.
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Arguing for Novak '15:
Unprecedented 6 ATP masters 1000 titles in a season.
Unprecedented, perfect 13 finals at GS, WTF & ATP 1000 level.
Unprecedented 15 cons. finals in a season.
Unprecedented 31 wins vs Top 10 players.
2 ATP 1000 titles beat 3 ATP 250 titles.
More YE ATP points (converted to today's pt. system).
Won titles on all surfaces (clay, grass, indoor & outdoor HC. Fed missed a clay title. Madrid 'was' indoor HC.)
Arguing for Federer '06:
More total # of titles (12 to 11). BTW, Laver '69 had 18, Vilas '77 had 16.
Better W-L ratio (92-5 to 82-6). BTW, McEnroe '84 had 82-3, Connors '74 had 93-4.
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Highest Season Winning % (90%+)
1. John McEnroe ('84) .965 82–3
2. Jimmy Connors ('74) .959 93–4
3. Roger Federer ('05) .953 81–4
4. Roger Federer ('06) .948 92–5
5. Björn Borg ('79) .933 84–6
6. Novak Djokovic ('15) .932 82-6
7. Roger Federer ('04) .925 74–6
= Ivan Lendl ('86) .925 74–6
9. Ivan Lendl ('85) .923 84–7
10. Ivan Lendl ('982) .922 106–9
11. Björn Borg ('80) .921 70–6
= Novak Djokovic ('11) .921 70-6
13. Ivan Lendl ('89) .919 79-7
= Jimmy Connors ('75) .919 79-7
15. Jimmy Connors ('76) .918 90-8
16. Jimmy Connors ('78) .917 66-6
17. Björn Borg ('77) .916 76-7
18. Rafael Nadal ('13) .915 75-7
19. Ivan Lendl ('87) .914 74-7***
***To me the biggest surprise is in both the nominal & adjusted values how > the gap's btw top 3 (Federer, Djokovic & Nadal) & Sampras. ...Just goes to show how much of an > in prize $$$ there's been over past 10 yrs, esp. in M1000's & tourneys outside of the Slams.
ReplyDeleteAlso highlights the absolute dominance shown by Fed, Nadal & Djokovic over the rest or the tour in the big $$$ tourneys. No doubt in my mind that Nole will finish ahead of Federer on both lists by close of their resp. careers!***
It's even more ridiculous than that for the ladies! Nole won $22 M alone last season; that's Martina's 30 yr career w/ record 167 wins in singles, 177 in doubles; 59 majors, won "grand snap" bonuses, etc.! That's obscene in so many ways, but again, it's all in the timing! If Martina were playing now, she might be doing $20 M a yr!
***Which do you prefer?
3 Slams: AO, Wimby & USO, just like '15
2 Slams including FO
1 Slam only: FO + Cincy***
Any combo's cool w/ me! Having to defend so many pts has to weigh on a player; the obligations and being pulled in every other direction b/c of his #1 ranking! Sooner or later "the real hype" will start when he approaches Nadal's # in majors! So far, the so called experts think of Nole as a glorified 3rd banana behind Fedal! That's ok b/c the next 2 yrs can change it all; the record books, the way we think of ATG's, and who can still be regarded as "The GOAT" w/ the pages written under his name!
*** - http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2016/01/federer-surprised-djokovic-smoked-nadal-doha-final/57200/#.VpSzenSFPIV -
Roger noted Nole's dominance on HC's & called him the fave going into the AO. "These results happen like we've seen @ the [ATP] WTF's when we've seen blowouts btw the top guys as well," Fed says. "That's b/c these kind of courts someX's allows that to happen— whoever takes the upper hand from the baseline then destroys the other guy...
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The predictions of Novak dominating for another 3-5 yrs, likely to win 3/4 slams this yr, Golden CYGS, surpassing Roger in wks at #1, > GS's, some of these are big... Not just Djokovic fans actually, others as well. ...Won't change the fact that Novak fans are probably going to take the majority of the brunt of what's going to come when Novak starts losing, esp. in slams. People were predicting Nadal to challenge for the #1 spot a wk ago and how he's the only 1 who can beat Djokovic, and now that's suddenly quieted down. From what I see recently young players are already hitting harder than the current gen. and soon w/b quicker as well, so IMO 1 good day from Kei, Raonic or Dimitrov & Novak is out.***
OIK it c/b bad, but I've tried to be more realistic and have meager expectations since I've been involved in tennis since '73! There are few sure things, but Nole's excellence comes close! I'll be perfectly happy w/ 2 majors; 1 FO & a USO to balance out the count! Anything above that is gravy! In poker vernacular, I used my "one X" to get Nole to 6 Masters last season so he w/b above everyone in that category at least! He may not get to 17 majors, but he certainly can set the Masters records for decades to come!
***Chasing the records adds spice to sport. The fact we have 3 ATG, and even now nobody truly knows for certain how the landscape will look once the dust has settled and they have all walked off into the sunset, certainly puts an X factor on every slam that is being played. ...Nole's already done more than I had ever imagined, so tbh, anything he does from now on is just a bonus. His legacy is set.***
***It's 5 yrs since the gluten cover-up, yet we hear the excuse of baby Novak for all the losses he had btw '08-'10.***
ReplyDeleteWe demand perfection from our ATG's so excuses abound; heaven knows Rafa had enough of them! One moment he's running like a deer, but hit a few winners and he's flexing his legs!
***In '13 Nadal won the most titles, was in the most finals, had the most pts and won the most $$$. For the ITF to come along and say, "no, we say someone else is #1" is pretty damned arrogant.***
Used to happen in the early Open era all the X! Back in '77, Vilas won 2 majors, was a finalist in another, won over 130 matches, & beat Connors @ USO; still odd man out behind Borg & Connors!
***Was there watching matches during that X, so I remember it very well. But I think it's much more clear-cut now. 1 player might edge out another w/ pts and yet have a slightly worse record at slams, i.e. At the beginning of the Open era, there was so much confusion; competing tours & slams skipped. $$ was so different w/ WTC tourneys paying way more than slams. The way pts are set up, it's almost impossible for slam winners to get edged out for #1 by non-winners. Even someone like Stan is an anomaly b/c he only got to #4 w/ a slam win, coming in behind Fed & Murray who won none. His yr was otherwise so weak.
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Djokovic won WTF again, beating his 2 biggest rivals along the way. 9th X this yr the great Fedal were 2nd best to 1 man, 45th X overall. Milestones:
1st man to win 5 AO titles
3rd man w/ Laver & Federer to reach all 4 Slam finals in 1 yr
2nd man w/ Fed to have X 3 Slam seasons
1st man since Fed in '07 to defend the Wimbledon title
1st man to defeat Fed twice @ Wimbledon
1st man to defeat Fed 3 X's @ the USO
2nd man w/ Soderling to defeat Nadal @ the FO
1st man to defeat Nadal in str. sets in BO5 match on clay
1st man to defeat both Federer and Nadal @ all 4 GS's
1st man to hold a neutral/+ H2H vs Federer @ all 4 GS
1st man to knock out all other defending Slam champions in a CY
6th man w/ double digit GS titles
1st man to win 6 Masters in 1 year
1st man to win 6 Masters at least 3 X's (IW, Miami, Rome, Montreal, Shanghai, Bercy)
1st man to win 4 Masters at least 4 X's (IW, Miami, Rome, Bercy)
1st man to win an IW-Miami double 3 X's
1st man to win an AO-IW-Miami triple 2 X's
1st man to win 1st 3 Masters of the yr (IW-Miami-MC)
Joint-most decorated player @ IW w/ 4 titles
Most dec. player at Shanghai Masters w/ 3 titles
Most dec. player at Bercy w/ 4 titles
1st man to win 3 cons. Bercy titles
1st man to participate in 8 Masters finals in a yr
1st man to win 5 Masters in 1 yr twice
1st man to win 5 cons. Masters in which he participated (done twice)
Biggest # of Masters wins in a season – 39
Biggest # of HC Masters titles – 19
2nd longest Masters winning streak (30, only bettered by his other streak – 31)
Biggest amount of pts (16.785)
Biggest lead over #2 (8.535)
1st #1 not to drop any ATP pts for entire 12 mos, from Shang.'14 semis to '15 WTF RR
1st man to beat Nadal @ every big clay tourney
1st man to beat Fed 5 X's in 1 season
1st man to beat Nadal, Fed & Murray @ least 20 X's each
Biggest # of wins vs the rest of the Big 4 in 1 year - 15
1st man since Fed in '07 to hold #1 ranking for an entire CY
Longest run of final tourn. ap. in 1 season – 15 finals in a row
Joint 4th w/ Lendl & McEnroe w/ 4 YE #1 rankings
5th all-X player on the list of # of wks spent at #1, entering 174th wk
Record # of top 10 wins in a season - 31
1st man to have at least 20 wins over top 10 players in 4 seasons
1st man to beat all top 10 players in a CY
Longest winning run at WTF's – 15 in a row
1st man to win 4 WTF titles in a row
Highest amount of prize $$ in 1 season ($21,592,125)
After so many painful yrs before '11, disappointments in '12-'14, Novak has responded in the best way; having the best season since Laver '69.***
***W/ Djokovic's USO title last year, he became the 3rd player of this gen. to reach at least 10 GS victories, joining Federer (17) & Nadal (14). To put that in perspective, just 2 other men have won double-digit Slams, all of which have come since the start of the Open era (since '68): Borg (11) & Pete Sampras (14). And they didn't overlap.
ReplyDeleteBorg started winning majors in '74 and was done by '81. Sampras won his 1st in '90 & culminated his career at the '02 USO w/ his 14th major trophy. It s/b noted that Laver won 11 majors, but 6 came before the Open era. Federer's 17 Slam wins are the most of all X. Nadal has won 2/3 of his H-to-H encounters w/ Federer (23-11). And now Djokovic, though w/ 7 < Slams than Federer, has dominated both his rivals, winning 9 of his past 10 matches vs Nadal and beating Federer in 2 major finals last season.
Last season, Djokovic won 3 GS titles. Amazingly, it was the 2nd X in his career he has pulled off this feat ('11). So dominant was Djokovic that he nearly doubled #2 Murray in rankings pts. The Serb reached the final of the last 15 events he played in '15 and accum. an 82-6 record along the way. Perhaps more impressive, he went 31-5 versus top-10 players. His > victim was Federer, who lost in the finals of Wimbledon and the USO to Djokovic.
For the 1st X in a decade, Nadal failed to advance to a major final. He has 14 GS titles, but there are ??s as to whether the Spaniard will add to his total. If he does, it'll most likely come at the FO, an event he has won 9 X's. No player in history has won more Slam titles at a single event than Nadal at RG.
In the decade that started in '06, Nadal, Djokovic & Federer have combined to win 34 of 40 GS titles. This Big 3 has accounted for 58 of the 80 GS final berths since '06. Hard to believe, but in 10 years of tennis dominated by the Big 3, only del Potro, Murray, Wawrinka & Cilic have been able to overcome their dominance and win a major event. And in only 1 major since '06 has there been a final consisting of 2 players not named Nadal, Djokovic or Federer -- that was in '14 when Cilic beat Kei Nishikori at the USO.
The Serb should enjoy the pinnacle of his career for at least another 2 years, but keep in mind, he turns 32 in 3 years, and only 3 players have won a Slam title in the Open era after that age. As for Fed, although he failed to win a major title, he did secure his spot as Nole's main rival, falling to the world #1 in the Wimbledon & USO finals. Fed handed Djokovic 3 of his 6 losses in '15. The ?? is: Can he finally take the next step and win a major, something he hasn't done since '12? He's 34 yo; no men's player has won a major @ that age since Andres Gimeno in the '72 FO. No matter what happens, the Big 3 has created an unmovable stranglehold in the game for a decade. The greatest era ever? Hard to argue against it.
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...Why isn't a 34 yo dominating the ATP then? Seriously WTA's a joke. Old woman won 3 slams and so far ahead of any in prime player. As far as I'm concerned, 34 yo won 3 slams in WTA, 34 yo won 0 slams in ATP. lol. in the past 5 yrs, 30+ non-GOAT woman won 8 slams compared to 30+ ATP GOAT won 1.***
Like Agassi, Serena didn't get serious w/ her training until later in her career! Believe it or not, I say she underachieved & the injuries were from just trying to play top flight tennis w/o really training! How many X's did she arrive at the AO overweight and "played herself" into the tournament as they would say? She really did miss out on a lot of tennis and probably could have set the record to heights unimaginable! Like Agassi, she blew it in a way! Both could and shd so much more IMO!
***...You have to believe in yourself. And if your current game isn't good enough, take a step back and work on it. Tomic gushing about Djokovic as if he walks on water isn't the way to be thinking.***
ReplyDeleteHappens on the men's and women's tours; an aura around some #1 players that some say gives them "2 or 3 games" before they come on court! It was like that w/ Martina, Evert, Graf, Seles, Venus, and Serena now! W/ the men, players like Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Lendl, Sampras, and even Federer walked in as if they owned the place! You have to have that mentality to sustain any kinds of consistency! I can't blame Tomic for what he said; just being honest! Don't you think everyone's thinking the exact same thing after Qatar? That was a "butt hurting" for the ages! Rafa was playing well enough; Nole just tracked down all his best stuff and spit it back at him! Very impressive; a lot better than his effort in '15!
Heaven knows we just saw how merciless Nole is when he plays his old rival Rafa! I swear it appears he wants to inflict as much punishment on Nadal to pay him back for all his gamesmanship and stalling! InSp replayed Qatar match here in the States and I haven't been this amused by a total "beat down" in quite a while! Some deserve it and Nadal certainly deserves to be jerked around the court and actually toyed w/ @ X's btw pts of being overpowered! ;-)
***...Who else could beat Djokovic? Nadal's scraping through matches, Fed's old AND has a mental block vs the guy, Murray isn't near '12 level yet. Wawrinka maybe, but what are the odds of him playing like he did in the FO '15 final? This is if he even makes it to Djokovic.***
The problem's and the main reason we haven't had a CYGS winner since Laver in '69 is b/c a tennis season's long & grueling; 365 days, 4 major events on 4 dif. surfaces! Obviously there aren't many players who have the consistency and ability to perform well enough to complete this task, but you also have to take into consideration the comp.; someone like Stan c/b "in the zone" and take him out unexpectedly! I was disappointed about RG, but I think it worked out well for Nole! W/ all the other winning in Masters' events, the press whb like rabid dogs talking about Nole & making suppositions that make no sense about a CYGS! W/ that FO loss, it was just the normal adoration of a CY in '15; even better than '11 w/ 6 Masters, 3 majors, & the YEC! That isn't including taking the 1st 3 Masters (a rec.), playing in all 8 finals skipping Madrid, defending 4 from '14, & had 30 str. wins going back to '14 (2nd behind Nole's 31; a rec.)! I just can't imagine any of the players being able to come close to these #'s!
***..the fact that no one else is winning slams besides the same guys every year. That's why weak era/strong era's always a circular argument.
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True. But the fact is that every expert on the topic agrees that we're witnessing 1 of the top tennis eras ever.
- http://espn.go.com/tennis/aus16/sto...ander-novak-djokovic-win-all-four-majors-2016 -
"The thing you have to apprec. about Djokovic is that he's doing it in 1 of the best eras in men's tennis," Wilander said. "It's harder today. When Roger did it, Djokovic & Murray were not yet in their prime.***
***“Djokovic looking like 1980s-90s NBA: 1st there was Bird, Magic, Isiah, Jordan. Then there was just Jordan. ...esp. w/ Nole playing in the era of Fed & Nadal, 2 of the best players in tennis history.
ReplyDeleteNole has recorded some of the best ind. seasons ever in the sport the past few yrs, includ. last season when he went 82-6 & finished w/ 3 major titles. At this rate, w/ Nadal’s injury-prone body, the 34-yo Fed past his prime and no obvious contender from the next gen., it's conceivable that Djokovic, owner of 10 GS titles, can match or break Federer’s record of 17.
...“Even though Rafa’s got 4 more Slams than Nole, I think Djokovic has better a chance of getting 7 than Rafa has of getting 3.…” ...Djokovic would not win another major title until AO '11. ..."…Djokovic seems to be rising while the other 2 are falling back.”
In a conference call w/ reporters last wk, ESPN tennis analyst Brad Gilbert said that Djokovic's “as complete of a tennis player” as he has ever seen. While Federer still holds sev. records, includ. reaching 36 cons. GS 1/4's, Nole's gaining on or surpassing his 2 main rivals in some stats. Acc. to 538’s Carl Bialik & Benj.Morris, “Djokovic is playing @ a level virtually unseen in the sport, topping even Fed’s best yrs a decade ago.”
Djokovic has a 22-22 H2H rec. vs Federer & a 24-23 H2H rec. vs Nadal. In 5 seasons that Federer has finished the year at #1, his win-loss record is 376-36 (91.3%). Djokovic has gone 288-32 (90%) in the 4 seasons he has ended as world #1 and Nadal is 228-28 (89.1%) in 3 seasons finishing at the top. Djokovic has a slight lead in career win % vs top 10 players at 66.7% compared to Federer’s 65.7% and Nadal’s 65.4%.
...“#1 players, there’s always improvement from the last decade,” Evert said. “I think Djokovic…if he has another 2 or 3 majestic years, he could very well be right up there w/ Federer. We keep saying the best that ever was. He’s certainly looking that way if he stays motivated.”
Even the man whose rec. Djokovic's chasing doesn't doubt the Serbian’s chances. “Clearly he can win many of them,” Fed said after his 4-set loss to Djokovic at last yr’s USO. “He already has a ton, so obviously he’s got to stay healthy and all that stuff and hungry, but obviously you would think he will win more after tonite.”
A health fanatic, Nole's a relatively young 28. He's known for a restr. diet & wrote in his autobio, “Serve To Win,” that he treated himself to just 1 small square of choc. after his nearly 6-hr victory over Nadal @ AO '12.
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Who's the most consistent player of all X? Who keeps on producing good results, match after match, day after day in both big & small tourneys?
Out of all stats on the ATP website, the match winning % is the best indicator of consistency across matches of all levels. At this moment, the COAT belongs to Novaaak DJoookovic, by a mile.
All X, Rafa's leading atm, but Nole has gained a lot of ground this yr ...so I think Nole will come out on top in this stat when he retires. If he gets the COAT, he will be closer to the GOAT.
'15 match winning %:
1 Djokovic 0.940 - 78-5
2 Federer 0.855 - 59-10
3 Murray 0.850 - 68-12
Career match winning %:
1 Nadal 0.828 - 764-159
2 Borg 0.827 64 609-127
3 Djokovic 0.825 - 682-145
4 Connors 0.819 109 1254-278
5 Lendl 0.818 94 1071-239
6 Federer 0.817 - 1055-237
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According to Fedal fans logic, Novak waited for Fedal (hairs) to decline and now having a weak hair field.***
...Nadal's disappears w/ a little sweat these days & Verdasco looked like he could go to a photo-shoot right after the match! Borg's was great back "in the day," Agassi's was the best of his gen. until it came out he wore exten., & I really like Nadal's & Federer's back when they were kids, but my all X fave, having the entire package w/ the best hair, short or long has t/b Feliciano Lopez!
***Out of curiosity, I wanted to see which players had the largest "Slam Final Shares" during the Age of Novak (2011-16). That includes 21 Slams.
ReplyDeleteSlam Finals: 2011-16:
17 Djokovic (76.2%)
9 Nadal (42.9%)
8 Murray (38%)
5 Federer (23.8%)
2 Wawrinka (9.5%)
1 Cilic (4.8%)
1 Nishikori (4.8%)
1 Ferrer (4.8%)
Slam Wins: 2011-16:
11 Djokovic (5.2%)
5 Nadal (23.8%)
2 Murray (9.5%)
2 Wawrinka (9.5%)
1 Federer (4.8%)
1 Cilic (4.8%)
Going just on that, Andy's behind only Novak & Rafa in those 2 categories and actually has a better conversion rate (28.5%) than Roger (20%) from '11 to the present. - I imagine some of you are looking around for possible suitors of your next fave player?***
...That's the way it's been w/ the next gen. in Kei & Milos! Both have challenged the best, but they can't stay on the court for long either! I'm done w/ Grigor after that loss to Murray in Cincy last season! Like so many of these newbies, he had X MP's and breaks giving away his lead & the match! I'll have to call it gutless to this day! Even if Roger were to hobble away, who's supposed to challenge Nole when these guys can't handle the old men now?
***Fiero, I'm not saying it will happen soon, just that it will happen. And unlike the Grigor-Kei-Milos gen., the next gen. (born 1994-98) will be rising as Novak-Murray will be declining. At some point they'll pass each other on the mountain, so to speak. When that will be, IDK. I do expect the tour to become more competitive over the next few years. Maybe not so much this year, although as I've said elsewhere I expect some bounce-back from the '89-93 bunch, but I do think we'll continue to see gains from the Young Punks and by next year they'll start being a factor in big tourneys, or at least some of them will.
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Subconsiously could Rod Laver be threatned by Djokovic possibly winning the CYS and maybe a Golden CYGS? - He's not threatened by Nole, but no 1 likes to see their records matched or surpassed, no matter what they say. He did tell Darren Cahill that Djokovic's performance in the 1st 2 sets vs Federer was the best tennis he ever witnessed in his life.***
It was a thrashing; only t/b replayed & duplicated again & again as X goes on! ;-)
***I don't for a sec. think Rocket w/b threatened by Djokovic. I think Laver's pretty content w/ his achievements and it's fantastic to still see him as an active observer @ so many tourneys around the world each year. In fact how cool would it be if Laver were to present Djokovic w/ the USO trophy this year if it completed the CYGS for him? Now that w/b a special moment in tennis.
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If/when Djokovic wins 1 more slam will you rank Nole > than Borg? He shot out like a rocket and dominated early in his career, but retired once he realized that the well was dry. Djokovic will no doubt surpass his career totals, just as Federer & Sampras did.***
I wish people would stop saying that; and the nonsense about McEnroe running Borg out of the sport! People should really go look up the real history and leave the old wives tales for bloggers and on air commentators who don't have a clue! If today's rules existed, he would have played several more years! Blame the idiot "powers that be" in that period who wouldn't give him a little break from the tour! If he had gotten 2 months early in '82, he probably would have shown up in X for the clay tour; Rome, MC, Paris! Now players w/ that kind of seniority can skip Masters events! That wasn't the case back then; needed to fake injuries like these losers today! ;-(
***Wimbledon >>> US Open >>> French Open >>> Australian Open***
ReplyDeleteWas the order! AO was having an identity crisis moving from Jan. to Dec back in the 70's to encourage Borg to come "down under" since he won FO & Wimbledon b2b 3 yrs in a row! If he had perchance acquired a USO, he might not have had a choice but to go @ season's end! They moved back to Jan. and has surpassed our crummy USO by a long ways! It's been 1 catastrophe after another! The venue changed surfaces & locations X X's w/i 4 yrs; from grass to clay to HC and of course moving from Forest Hills to Flushing! No major has been as psychotic as ours here in the States! I vote Wimbledon #1 b/c of it's history, the FO #2, then AO, w/ the USO trailing!
***Longest WTA Match Win Streak: Navratilova - 74 ('84)
Longest ATP Match Win Streak: Vilas - 46 ('77)
Longest WTA Match Win Streak On Clay: Evert - 125 ('73-79)
Longest ATP Match Win Streak On Clay: Nadal - 81 ('05-07)
Longest WTA Match Win Streak On HC: Graf - 82 ('88-90)
Longest ATP Match Win Streak On HC: Roger Federer - 56 ('04-06)
Longest WTA Match Win Streak On Grass: Navratilova - 47 ('85-87)
Longest ATP Match Win Streak On Grass: Federer - 65 (2003-08)
Longest WTA Match Win Streak On Carpet: Navratilova - 48 ('86-87)
Longest ATP Match Win Streak On Carpet: Lendl - 66 ('81-83)
Most Cons. WTA Singles Titles: Navratilova - 13 ('84)
Most Cons. ATP Singles Titles: Borg - 8 ('79-80), Ivan Lendl - 8 ('81-82), John McEnroe - 8 ('83-84)
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Let us revisit at the end of '16 season. If Nole wins:
--Only AO, no chance to pass Rafa
--2 majors, will tie or pass Rafa
--3 majors, surely pass Rafa and will have a shot to tie Fed
--GS? A miracle by itself no < than passing Fed in majors count
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Djokovic dom. vs the Big 4 since '11:
vs Federer, Novak leads 18 - 9; last 10 matches 7-3 for Novak.
vs Nadal, Novak leads 17 - 7; leads 9-1 in last 10 matches played.
vs Murray, Novak leads 18 - 8; last 12 matches Novak leads 11-1
Novak right now has no comp. Is there even a Big 4 anymore?
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Federer: reached 23 cons. slam semi's(Nole 14)
- reached 10 cons. slam finals (Nole 5)
- reached 18 of 19 slam finals (Nole 7 of 8)
- holds 237 cons. wks @ #1(Nole 83)
- won 3 slams/year 3 X's (Nole 2)
- reached all 4 slam finals/yr 3 X's (Nole 1)
- has 3 seasons w/ at least 90% win/loss rec. (Nole 2)
And Djoko has had 15 cons. finals w/i a season and 16 cons. tier 1 finals & 6 cons. tier 1 titles. So he's been more consistent in more impressive ways (Fed's stats include a whole lot of 250s- win/loss)
---
Fed won 3 slams + WTF 3 X's and reached 4 slam finals 3 X's as well. Djokovic only managed this once so far. We're not gonna give some imaginary potential titles he hasn't won yet this year.***
People were making such a big deal of Roger's age in comparison to Nole, but now they don't mention it in conjunction w/ the longevity of the man and the records he holds! That makes no sense; can't have it both ways!
***Djokovic has won 11 Slams now. And there's nothing wrong w/ using '11 as a reference point considering that's when Novak became the player we all know & love today.***
Nole was a perennial #3 before 2011! Why would we reference his record that much before that X since he had only won 1 YEC, 1 AO, & a handful of Masters? It only makes sense for his RP being his greatest season in '11; same for Connors in '74! In the early 70's it was all about BJK & the new Virg. Slims tour, Riggs, Court, Goolagong, Smith & his shoes, Rosewall, Nastase, & Laver OTTH! Connors & Evert didn't take over USA consciousness until '74 when they won their 1st majors w/ dom. seasons!
***Congrats to Djokovic for winning his 4th GS in the last 5....
ReplyDeleteLaver (after '69 USO) - doesn't play the next 2 GS's, loses 4th Rd, 4th Rd, 3rd Rd @ his next 3 GS's.
Sampras (after '94 Wimbledon)- loses 4th R'd, F, 1st R'd @ his next 3 GS's.
Federer (after '07 USO) - loses semi, F, F at his next 3 GS's.
Nadal - (after '11 FO) - loses F, F, F @ his next 3 GS's.
Djokovic (after '12 AO) - loses F, semi, F @ his next 3 GS's.
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If I'm being quite conservative I'd say he'll win AT LEAST 1 more slam this year, but poss. 2 or 3 getting him the coveted CYGS slam. He'll also be the fave for OG. Conserv. est. might put Djokovic @:
12-13 slams
29-31+ Masters (1st place all X)
~230 wks @ #1 (Close to Connors/Lendl)
70+ titles (Surpassing Nadal, @ 67 now)
5 YE #1's, =ing Federer & 1 behind Sampras.
Possible CGS and CGGS. And that's just '16.
Let's say '17, when he w/b 30, decline? Who's going to challenge him for the #1 spot? Certainly not a 31 yo Nadal or 36 yo Fed. Murray? Not. Young guns? Disappointing. So, being conserv., let's say he takes 1-2 slams and 2-3 Masters. And finishes at year #1. So now he'd tentatively be at:
13-15 slams
32+ Masters (eclipsing all)
75-80 titles (Fed has 88 now)
250-275 wks @ #1 (being conserv.- poss. someone overtakes him for a few wks). This would put him 3rd all X behind Sampras & Fed.
6 YE #1's, =ly Sampras for 1st all X, & passing Fed.
Dominant H2H over all rivals.
So, by this point he's clearly w/i striking distance of becoming GOAT. And let's not forget that Djokovic has shown no signs of wear and tear on his body such as players like Nadal have and may continue to play top level for a long X as Fed has. So let's say after '17 he won't be on top anymore, but he wins about 2 more slams in his career (another conserv. est. IMO). So we have this as a safe bet:
15-17+ slams
34+ Masters
270+ wks @ #1
6 YE #1's
Dominant H2H over all rivals
Career GS, poss. double career slam.
90+ titles
IMO, at the very least, Nole's on the way to becoming a firm #2 in the GOAT debate, only behind Fed. In these predictions I tried to be realistic yet conservative. He may very well exceed these expectations and become the undisputed GOAT, but I really can't see him doing any worse than the #'s I've laid out here. It really is crazy how someone can skyrocket through the record books in such a short X, but in the past year Djokovic has made a clear case that he's a part of absolute highest tier of players tennis has ever seen.
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By the end of the year, he will pretty much have had 6 yrs @ #1 (other than '13 where he was close 2). He's due an injury of some type surely. History tells us he will fade as did Fed, Sampras, Nadal, etc. It tends to happen pretty suddenly as well. However, there doesn't seem to be anyone ready to take over or close to it. He seems invincible. He'll finish w/ 15 or 16 slams, but not surprised if he finishes w/ 13 or 18!
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He's on 11 now, so I see Novak at his present peak winning 14 or 15 Slams at least. He's giving great players like Federer and Murray GS hrashings. Given he's 28, coming up to 29, can Novak reach Federer's 17? Not sure. He has to overcome the Paris obstacle and that m/b in his mind. Novak needs the French for all-court greatness and 3 Wimbledon titles in a row would bolster his legacy too. For me, a '16 GS would make Novak the GOAT and he'd probably add more too. If he wins the FO and 1 other Slam this year, that's another 3 Slam season, 13 Slams and a clay court Major. W/ his dominant #1 standing and wks @ #1, successive yrs as ITF World Champ, and his ATP WTF's, Masters' title successes etc, Noles closing in. He's level w/ Borg for GS wins now & left Connors, McEnroe & Lendl far behind.***
Thanks; love it!
***Grand Slams won or lose to eventual champion - Federer, Nadal, Djokovic
ReplyDelete# of GS's that each won or lost to the eventual champion (a good loss):
Australian, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open
Federer - 4 (5), 1 (6), 7 (3), 5 (4)
17, 18 out of 67 GS's (52%)
Djokovic - 6 (3), 0 (7), 3 (2), 2 (5)
11, 17 out of 45 GS's (62%)
Nadal - 1 (2), 9 (0), 2 (3), 2 (2)
14, 7 out of 44 GS's (48%)
Sampras - 2 (2), 0 (3), 7 (1), 5 (4)
14, 10 out of 52 GS's (46%)
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Federer - '04 Wimbledon to '10 AO - a streak of 23 Slam tournaments where he either won (14 of 23) or lost to the eventual champion.
===
Berdych and Ferrer did play better back then. Wawrinka is the only 1 playing better now.***
Oh I think Ferrer and Berdych are on par w/ the past, just not as smart! You would think they'd expand their repertoire of simple 'ball bashing' and add on more net attacks! Hanging at the baseline hasn't done anything for them except sustained mediocrity! ;-)
***...Pardon me, but what final would you say Nole choked before that amazing Wimbledom 2014 final?***
Nole's had his moments; if not a complete choke, a bit of ganging was going on when serving for a match or 3 a few X's! How many X's has this happened to him where Djokovic's broken and had to come back to win? That '14 Wimbledon match was pivotal in so many ways; Nole slam-less for over a year and hadn't won anything w/ Becker in attendance as his coach! The 2 Masters he took in the spring were won while Becker was in the hospital so it might have changed the course of all 3 lives if that match had gone to Roger!
***Oh yeah, I agree completely. I even stated before that the start for Djokovic '15 season began w/ this win; really needed it. After this win, he had the confidence to restart winning all titles in '11 style.
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I tend to agree w/ Fiero here: Serena's "strategy" is indistinguishable from her forearm muscles. She's a bruiser, a puncher, not a boxer. The only X I've seen her employ inspired "strategy" or tactics is in her toilet breaks, or pretend ones like the match with Danny Long Legs at Wimbledon a few years ago. It ain't subtle, but it was all she got...
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That's not to say Serena is unintelligent as a player. She's not, she's fiercely bright. But she's no Hingis when it comes to tennis smarts in strategic stuff...- Serena's great, but she's not blessed in who she faces for us to compare her w/ Navratilova or Evert...***
She hasn't had real comp since Henin & Clijster! The few players that have the firepower to blow her off the court are "head cases" who c/b spotted 4 MP's and they'd find a way to lose it; Sharapova & Azarenka! Then you have SW's bestie in Woz who's also thrown off; has the game, but will never beat Serena on her worst day! At this X you need either an old vet like Vinci or newbie like Bencic who had "nothing to lose" and let it rip; upsets for the ages when the est. stars are pathetic and rarely win if ever! Why it's called a rivalry w/ Maria; I'll never understand! She hadn't won a match vs Wms in over 10 yrs! Aza should just default if she sees Serena's name next to hers! That AO CHOKE serving for it a couple X's allowing Serena to save so many MP's; why didn't she just retire? If she couldn't win that 1, she may never beat Serena again!
***...If you had 1 match for a female player to play w/ your wellbeing at stake, would you prefer Hingis or Serena? Most definitely it's Serena for me; even if she is playing against Graf, Evert or Martina Nav in their prime on their best surfaces including clay.**
Even clay; w/ 10+ years btw FO titles w/ no clay court specialist like Henin? Not sure I'd take that bet Serena would beat any of the past greats like Navratilova, Evert, Graf, or Seles!
***...Don't you think this w/b the most intriguing RG, even surpassing that of last yr?***
ReplyDeleteI think this past FO had it all; Rafa vs his nemesis in the 1/4'S instead of semi or final, having a delay in his SF w/ Andy due to rain/darkness/length of Stan's match, and all kinds of expectations! Even though Djokovic has won the majority of his meetings w/ the Swiss, they're usually drawn out, long affairs and I wasn't shocked in the least when the match was lost! He was up 2 breaks at the USO and had to use both to survive that 4th set run of Roger's! Happens entirely too much!
***Granted we have 2 Masters coming up on HC's, and unless there's a significant shift of some kind, Novak's the fave to win them. In MC, Madrid, Rome - Nadal will have to reassert himself at 1 of the tourneys here if he's going t/b in a place to contend for the FO. I'm still not sure if Novak is skipping Madrid again or not, but in MC & Rome, he's had Rafa's #. Madrid plays faster and Andy w/b there to defend his title. Rafa's got his work cut out for him. Hopefully he can find his form in these early clay tourneys and be competitive in the Masters & RG.
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You are right GSM; is going t/b a very interesting RG this year. The fact that Novak w/b going for the Nole slam as well gives the tournament some extra pressure that he really doesn't need - trying to finally complete the CGS's enough! Now at RG he'll be going for:
Completing the Career GS
Completing the Nole Slam
Stage 2 of the CYGS
Stage 2 of the CY Golden Slam
No pressure, Novak...***
That'll be up to the media IMO! How will they handle the coverage? Will they go insane coming up w/ new angles to muse about the same facts? How many past champions will put in their 2 cents and subsequently embarrass themselves; McEnroe & Wilander have eaten all their words! All the instances they didn't think c/b achieved by Nole has been surpassed and they're still groveling!
***Djokovic's feasting on a very weak era w/ no sight of the end. Seriously, who is gonna stop him? Nadal is a shell of his former self; so is Fed (and can't keep up for more than 3 sets). Even Murray who's comfortably the 2nd best player in the world is nowhere near his 2012/13 level. Wawrinka shows up once a year. ALL these guys are older than Nole too. So as you said, yeah someone new will arrive. When Djokovic is sitting at 30 Slams b/c there won't be anyone to stop him for a decade.***
The era isn't necessarily weak, but in comparison to the "leaders," they're made to look it! I'm 1 who constantly kvetches about the Big 4 owning the tour, taking most, if not all of the majors and Master's titles! If you look at the record books, it takes you back to a bygone era when 1 person ran things and barely had to practice! We know that isn't how this era's ATG's got it done and it was w/ hard work and dedication, but I still think the rest of the "also-rans" of the day c/b doing so much more to make things more competitive!
***If he loses sets: 'oh he cant win even in his prime/peak'
If he doesnt lose:'weak era'
The guy just cant wino_O***
Well I think Nole can live w/ those detractors! The worst one's were past champions saying just a few years ago:
Djokovic won a title, but he can't win bo5 over Roger or Rafa
Djokovic won his AO, but he won't beat Rafa on clay
Djokovic won several clay Masters beating Rafa, but he can't beat him @ FO
Djokovic beat Rafa @ FO, but he's a shell of himself & well past his prime
Nole will never do enough for some historians & commentators!
***...Don't say: "Djokovic won't win the CYGS;" say: "I will stop Djokovic from winning the CYGS." Wawrinka's the defending champ. @ the FO by beating down the #1 w/ GS aspirations.***
ReplyDeleteEven though I've lived for tennis for well over 40 years; it's just not that dire in the grand scheme of things in my life @ this X! I'm happy enough with how things are going for the men; actually predictable! If Nole takes it in Paris, I'll be happy enough about it, but won't lose sleep if he doesn't! More from the old school and worship @ the alter of my ATG's; Borg & Martina! They're the champions I grew up respecting the most w/ honorable mentions going to the beautiful and complete games of Goolagong & Mandlikova for women; the men, Federer & Edberg!
I give them more credit due to the infancy of the ATP & WTA, inferior equipment, lack of respect of tennis even being a sport, poor endorsement opps, etc.! Today's stars have it so much easier; don't even play bo5 in these Masters event which are revered almost as much as a major! I'm starting to think the final should go back to b05 and really show who's the best! I doubt if Nole would take 6 of the 9 if that were to happen; sorta devalues all these double-wins of Nole @ IW-Miami so often after he's taken the 1st major! It's almost expected! Who doubts he will mow them down again in both locations? There won't be any changes I know, but fun to muse about "what if?"
***...Can't believe how many Masters titles RAFA has missed out on - w/ his FH DTL spitting off the grass, he'd already be above 30 (and then it would have been game over as far as the Masters record is concerned). Might also help the ultra-hard workers like Federer who aren't blessed w/ fancy footwork on slower surfaces like clay.
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That's certainly true. After all, we know that RAFA has never lost a point unless an injury interfered w/ his form OR he was lulling his opponents into a false sense of security by not utilizing his FH DTL. HC's, as he's often said, are extremely dangerous, and may interfere w/ his ability to play sports as a hobby post-retirement. If there were grass-court Masters events, he wouldn't have to worry about golfing & fishing, and could unleash his FH DTL to full effect.***
It's been talked about, but if Queens made into a Masters, you'd have to take 1 away from another location and relegate it to 500 level! It might happen to us here in the States since we have 3 w/ a neighboring event to the north in Canada! Shanghai promotes & spends the most to have theirs, so forget it! MC & Rome are perennial events and are a bargain in more ways than one w/ such long histories! I wouldn't mind putting the ax to Paris since they have a major in the same city! Think about it; more likely to have wasted points on "also-rans" b/c usually the top players are exhausted and easily upset! Nole the 1 player that doesn't seem to follow any rule having t/d w/ consistency; or lack thereof!
***I don't think "I love the game" is the only reason Fed still keeps on playing. Some of it is b/c he doesn't want his "best ever" legacy threatened. He knows it's in ??, Nadal & Djokovic can both break his record. Fed looks highly depressed someX's when losing to Novak, esp. after the WTF '15 final. In gen., both he and his wife do not look happy. Why can he not be content w/ his career. What else does he want? Records are meant to broken; surely he must know this.***
I already mentioned the reason Roger won't even consider retiring is b/c the next gen. hasn't really stepped up to force him out! He's a legitimate #2 or 3 in the world making major finals and winning a Masters event here and there! You never know; might have another upset "blood bath" at a Wimbledon or USO and Roger could slip through; as in his last improbable wins at '09 FO & '12 Wimbledon! ;-)
***Djokovic & Federer have played 45 X's to date.
ReplyDeleteAll matches: Djokovic 23–22 GS matches: Djokovic, 9–6
ATP WTF's matches: Djokovic 3–2
ATP Masters 1000 matches: Tied 9–9
Best of 3 set matches: Federer, 15–14
Best of 5 set matches: Djokovic, 9–7
Matches lasting 5 sets: Djokovic, 3–0
Winning the match after losing 1st set: Djokovic, 7–1
All finals: Djokovic, 11–6 GS finals: Djokovic, 3–1
ATP WTF's finals: Djokovic, 2–0
ATP Masters 1000 finals: Djokovic, 4–3
ATP World Tour 500 series finals: Tied, 2–2
All sets: Federer, 69–63 Deciding sets: Djokovic, 12–5
TB sets: Federer, 12–10 Deciding TB's: Djokovic, 3–1
Results on each court surface:
Clay cts: Tied, 4–4
HC's: Tied, 17–17 Outdoor: Federer, 13–12
Indoor: Djokovic, 5–4
Grass cts: Djokovic, 2–1
---
Djokovic & Nadal have played 47 X's to date.
H-2-H tallies:
All matches: Djokovic, 24–23
All finals: Djokovic, 14–10
GS matches: Nadal, 9–4
AO: Djokovic, 1–0
RG: Nadal, 6–1
Wimbledon: Tied, 1–1
USO: Nadal, 2–1
GS finals: Nadal, 4–3
Tennis Masters Cup/ATP WTF's matches: Djokovic, 3–2
Tennis Masters Cup/ATP WTF's finals: Djokovic, 1–0
ATP Masters Series/ATP Masters 1000 matches: Djokovic, 14–9
ATP Masters Series/ATP Masters 1000 finals: Djokovic, 7–5
DC matches: Nadal, 1–0
Olympics: Nadal, 1–0
Results on each court surface:
Clay cts: Nadal 14–6
Hard cts: Djokovic 17–7 Outdoor cts: Djokovic 13–5
Indoor cts: Djokovic 4–2
Grass cts: Nadal 2–1
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There's no other player who has reached 8 Masters 1000 finals in a single season or in cons. seasons. Djokovic's the only player to achieve this feat in the Open era and since the Masters 1000 series began in '70.
Djokovic's the only player to win 6 Masters 1000 titles in a single season. He broke his own previous rec. of 5 which was tied w/ Nadal, Rod Laver & Connors.
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ATP Rankings '73 (16,790) - highest # of ranking pts as #1 - SA
ATP '70 - 15 strt finals reached in season ('15) - SA
10 Top tier tourneys won in season - Stands Alone
30+ match wins vs Top 10 opps in a season - SA
Defeated all Top 10 players in season - SA
ATP WTF's '70 4 cons. titles - SA
15 cons. match wins - SA
ATP Masters 1000 '70 6 titles won in season ('15) - SA
8 finals reached in season ('15) - SA
19 HC titles - SA
12 finals won in a row - SA
2 yrs winning 5+ titles - SA
3 yrs reaching 6+ finals - SA
3+ titles at 6 diff. tourneys - SA
4+ titles at 4 diff. tourneys - SA
Simul. holder of 6 diff. tourneys - SA
Paris - '68 4 men's singles - SA
China - '93 6 men's singles - SA
Shanghai '09 3 men's singles - SA***
***Nole's GS recs (Stands Alone):
ReplyDelete'10–13 7 cons. HC finals
'05–16 88.4% (114–15) HC match winning %
Wimb. — AO '11-16 2 streaks of 3 cons. Major titles - Fed
FO — AO '07–08 Youngest player to reach semi's of all 4 Majors (20 yrs, 250 days)
'07–08 Youngest player to reach all 4 Majors semi's cons.
AO / Wimbl. '08–15 3+ titles @ AO & Wimbl. - Fed
FO / USO '07–15 3+ R-up finishes @ 2 Majors - Fed
AO '12 Longest GS final (by duration) vs Nadal
Recs @ each GS tourney:
AO '08–16 6 men's singles titles overall
'11–13 3 cons. titles
'08–16 6 finals overall
'11–13 3 cons. finals - Wilander & Lendl
FO '11–15 5 cons. semi's - Fed & Nadal
USO '12 Longest final (by duration) vs Murray
Djokovic's the 1st player in the Open era to win 6 AO titles, 1st and only player to win 3 cons. titles, & only player to reach 6 AO finals overall.
ATP Masters 1000 Records & ATP WTF's recs:
GP Chp Series began in '70.
ATP WTF:
'12–15 4 cons. titles
'12–15 15 cons. match wins
'14 76.1% (51–16) games winning % in 1 tourney
'08–15 1st 5 finals won
'11 Qualified the earliest – 18 wks, 6 days
ATP Masters 1000:
'07–13 8/9 titles won
'07–12 Finalist in all 9 tourneys - Fed & Nadal
'07–2015 19 hard court titles
'15 6/6 hard court finals in a season
'15 6 titles won in a single season
'015 8 finals reached in a single season
'11, '14–15 Streak of 5 titles
'14–15 Streak of 9 finals
'11,'12,'15 - 3 yrs reaching 6+ finals
'11-12 - 2 cons. yrs reaching 6+ finals
'12–15 12 finals won in a row
'11 31 cons. match wins
'15 39 match wins in a single season
'13–15 4 cons. tourneys titles - Nadal
'15 5 cons. tourneys finals - Nadal
'11,'15 2 yrs winning 5+ titles
'11,'14–15 2 streaks of 5 titles
'11,'14–15 3 yrs winning 4+ titles
'13–15 3 streaks of 4 titles
'13–15 2 streaks of 4 cons. tourneys titles
'14–15 2 cons. yrs winning 4+ titles - Federer
'11–15 5 cons. yrs winning 3+ titles
'07–15 4+ titles at 4 diff. tourneys
'07–15 3+ titles at 6 diff. tourneys
'14–15 Simul. holder of 6 diff. tourneys titles
'11–15 Retaining titles at 6 diff. tourneys
'15 4 cons. title defenses
'11–13 Won all 3 clay tourneys (MC, Madrid & Rome) - Nadal
'15 Winning the opening 3 events of a season
'11, '14–15 Won IW's – Miami Masters title double 3 X's
'08–15 4 IW's titles overall - Fed
'09–15 4 Paris titles overall
'13–15 3 cons. Paris titles
'12–15 3 Shanghai titles overall
'12–13 2 cons. Shanghai titles - Murray
'13–15 3 yrs winning Paris & YEC B2B
'15 15 strt. finals in a season
'14–16 18 Top tier tourneys finals in a row
'15 10 Top tier tourneys won in a season
'14–15 7 Top tier tourneys won in a row
'06–15 20+ wins over each other member of the Big 4 (Fed, Nadal & Murray)
'06-16 + H2H record vs each other member of the Big 4
'15 31 match wins vs. Top 10 opps in a single season
'15 37.8% - % of Top 10 wins to the overall match wins of a season
'15 Defeated all Top 10 players in season
'12,'13,'15 3 yrs winning 24+ matches vs. Top 10 opps.
'11–13,'15 4 yrs winning 20+ matches vs. Top 10 opps.
'11–13 3 cons. yrs winning 20+ matches vs. Top 10 opps.
'11 5 cons. match wins vs #1 player in finals (Nadal)
'07 Youngest player to defeat the top 3 players in succ. (Roddick, Nadal & Fed)
'07 Youngest player to win Miami(19 yrs, 316 days)
'15 Most prize $$ won in season ($21,646,145)
'09–15 6 China titles
'12–15 4 cons. China titles
'15 7 titles defended in a season - Fed
'07–10 4 YE's @ #3 - Connors
'07–10 4 cons. yrs ended @ #3
'03–16 95.8% (614–27) match winning % after winning 1st set
'03–15 74.2% (141–49) deciding set winning %***
***-Nadal fans, sorry for the downfall of the man. It’s tough to see. I was watching the Wimbledon '08 final the other day and realized how far he has fallen. But it’s OK. It’s life.
ReplyDelete-Now, decided to come up w/ 30 controversial opinions of mine. Here they are...
1) Djokovic's not @ his peak. '11 was his peak level of play. Look @ Rome '11 final vs the Rome '15 ...and both USO & AO finals.
2) Murray's better than Roddick ever was. World #1 or no #1.
3) Nadal actually has the >est level of play ever; not Fed or Djokovic.
4) Kyrgios' the next big thing. Not controversial, but he and Thiem are going to split slams for yrs.
5) Djokovic has the most balanced career of any player; ever. He’s won the AO, Wimbledon, USO, IW, Miami, MC, Rome, Canada, Shanghai, Paris, & London; ALL X x'S. Who else can say something like this? No FO is a spot though.
6) Nadal was so much > on clay from '05-08 than he was from '11-14.
7) Wawrinka's overrated. Credit for both slams, but other than that, he isn’t as > as everyone makes out.
8) Davydenko is, was, & will remain > than Nishikori ever w/b.
9) Nalbandian had a > career than Ferrer.
10) Leave Laver out of every conversation we have on CYGS or GOAT. Respect to him, but we’re in a new dimension. His accolades aren’t even > than Rafa if we ‘weigh’ them up.
11) Cilic didn’t pop out the blue. Go and see his RG & Wimbledon matches vs Djokovic, & Toronto match vs Fed, & you’ll know his GS had pending potential.
12) Fed's a much > player now than '10-11.
13) Nadal's done; fully. No going back. He doesn’t know how to schedule @ all. He doesn’t want a new coach. 1 Masters MAX until he retires.
14) Djokovic won’t win the FO this year. He also won’t win the Olympics.
...
18) Fed's not mentally tough. Winning some 5-setters & saving MP's happens someX's.
19) Let’s break down Federer’s ‘weak era’. Do not count '04, as you can't penalise a 22-yo 1st-X World #1 for dominating. '05 was not weak; '06 was, '07 was not. Ergo, 1 weak yr. Djokovic had '15.
20) Murray has more talent that Djokovic.
21) Nadal maxed out his potential; even went over & beyond.
22) Djokovic’s game isn't boring.
23) Federer’s >est achievement is not nec. his 17 slams; it's the year '12. Came back, won Wimbledon, 3 Masters 1000, double digit finals & WORLD #1, all in the midst of Nadal, Murray & Djokovic’s prime, & @ age of 31. If that doesn’t quash this ‘he can only dominate a weak era’, then whatever, you can’t be helped.
24) This 1’s gonna sting the Djoko fans. Okay - he got INCREDIBLY lucky in many matches in '15; Miami vs Dolgo, Wimbl. vs Anderson, Montreal vs Gulbis, Cinci vs Goffin & Dolgo, then USO vs Fed.
...
25) Fed will not win an 18th. Had chances & let it slip.
...
30) Everything said, Djokovic will end up on 15 slams. Ain’t no way in Hell the man reaches 17.***
***...You have to admit Novak has a much better matchup vs Nadal. Novak beating washed up Nadal in '15 doesn't imply peak Fed can do the same.
ReplyDelete---
Not on clay. The diff. is that when Federer was in his prime, so was Nadal. Djokovic got almost all of his wins vs a past his prime or washed up Nadal. Everyone knows this.
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Nadal won 5/6 FO meetings vs Djokovic convincigly & the only X he pushed him to 5 was after Nadal was serving for a 4 set win. 19-24 yo Nadal is plain better than 25-28 yo Nadal. The only X Nadal played close to his peak level was the '12 FO & he nearly laid a str. set beatdown on Djokovic in the final.
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Fact 1, Fed has 0 wins over Nadal at RG. He also hasn't taken Nadal to 5.
Fact 2, Movak has a much better h2h vs Nadal.
Fact 3, prime or non-prime is defined by you subjectively. I can also say Nadal's peak was '08 to '13. Did Novak get all his wins in '11 vs washed up Nadal? Lol.
If you played a guy 40+ X's, prime or non-prime doesn't really matter. The large # means that they have both been playing at a level high enough to reach the semis & finals of tournaments, and so each win counts.
If you discount Nole's wins vs old Nadal, then I can also discount Nadal's wins over pre-'11 Nole. It goes both ways.
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Overall Nole's won 10 of the last 21 Slams, 4 of the last 5 WTF's, finished #1 '4' of the last 5 yrs, & took 21 of the last 45 Masters; averaging over 8 titles a year. I'm not sure how much more one could want.
OTTH, your criteria pretty much limits an "era" to what Roger did in '04-07, when he won 11 of 16 Slams. But that's a pretty high bar and basically makes the term "era" so narrow as to be pointless. Perhaps we could instead use the term "era" to refer to a great player's best years and period of dominance. Then we could look at different eras, some that overlap:
Roger: '04-09
Rafa: '08-13
Novak: '11-16
Maybe the most meaningful use of the term "era" w/b for '04-16, the Fedalkovic Era. Facts won't lie, but someX's might mask. Very subjectively, as huge Nole's fan, I admit Nole era is not as dominant as Fed's. In other words, his peak is not as high as Fed. Result-wise they are close. But if we watched the entire MAJORS, we could easily see Fed was HEAD & SHOULDERS vs the field, except @ RG. However as Nole admitted himself on the AO '16, he had roller-coaster matches on every major he won. AO '11 & '16 are the only finals w/o dropping a set. Sitting in front of TV, I just feel Fed's margin at his peak is much > than Nole's, though he paid price in some 5-set classics.
Hypothetically, if another player wins RG consecutively 4-5 X's, w/o dropping a set, not even through single TB all the way, is he more dominant than Rafa? He gets my vote, though Rafa is still well regarded as THE BEST in RG.
If we have to label Nole, I would put COMPLETE and CONSISTENT ahead of DOMINANT. Though Fed & Rafa (on RG) style are more entertaining (again, subjective) and result more convincing, I prefer to watch Nole's match. When all is said and done, trophy-wise, Nole has decent shot to catch RAFA or even Fed if all stars align. His jumping into GOAT debate simply far exceeds my expectation.***
***Nadal was the top dog for almost years? He's not even at full 3 yrs by looking at his weeks at #1. Djokovic has been on top for one full year longer than Nadal.***
ReplyDeleteNadal's the "Venus Wms" of the ATP; overrated, limited X @ #1, & hanging on for no good reason!
***LOL I wouldn't be that harsh. :D But honestly, I can't see any twisted way of looking @ it where Nadal was the top man for 5 yrs. - Venus overrated?...is that melidonium clouding your judgement?***
Even though I haven't cared much about women's tennis since Henin retired, I know full well the shortcomings of this so called great! ...Her serve though historically 1 of the fastest & heaviest in the WTA, that hitch c/b seen from the cheap seats! ...if you make her work she's likely to donate her serve to you w/ X DF's! ...She was terribly inconsistent & hasn't dominated since those early yrs of 2000-01 w/ an assist from Serena donating 2 of those Wimbledons!
***Ignorance is bliss.***
Yo Mamma!
***Calm down, it's only 2 filthy rich players that maybe dope; both of them. Both of them have brilliant careers. They have enough support already.***
Exactly! It kills me how people defend the Williams' & Nadal like they need it; rich, world-wide fame, meeting Prez's, & I'm supposed to feel sorry when things aren't running perfectly for them! I wish I c/b spared that kind of ignorance!
***I meant Nadal & Novak. Both of them get defended; Federer too. One fan group saying their player is doping. No 1 knows!***
TF.com site posted Nadal may be suing a FO official b/c she mentioned to the press that he had failed a doping test 2 years ago! I don't think he wants to do that; "Discovery" in the court case might expose other things he may want to keep undercover! I say those injury absences over the years were secret suspensions!
***Obviously Srdjan wants as many opportunities for his son to pound DecliNadal into oblivion as possible. There's no way he would genuinely wish Nadal to become a real competitor to Djokovic again. Doesn't strike me that way at all.***
Maybe, but the same thing c/b said and was happening w/ Nadal & Federer matches! We all knew the result before it occurred, but it was still "must see" TV!
***...Their non-clay rivalry went NID after the AO '09 final, except you could still expect Federer to defeat Nadal indoors, but by that X the greatest past of their rivalry was already over. Fedal was never that hopelessly one-sided as a top rivailry in tennis (i.e., before '11).
---
I think Novak's currently the most talented player. Honestly, if someone were to ask me the most talented of all X it w/b Fed, primarily b/c the guy has done things that barely anyone has done before. It's like he's "rewritten tennis" or something like that. Djokovic's highly talented, no denying that, and everything people say about him, "outlasting ops, baseline robots," and such, are also talents. You need high stamina & extreme consistency to achieve that. Talent is almost like a prerequisite to become world #1; you need a lot of it, too!
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Djokovic has a bunch of weapons and different talents. These days he does tend to outlast his foes until finals day when he dials up the concentration and destroys them w/ accurate and measured yet aggressive ground strokes. The guy has good feel on the lob and drop shot too - if that is more your thing. I don't think he's the 'perfect' player, but he's very talented.***
***After winning IW, 2 & 0 over Raonic:
ReplyDelete- Djokovic ties Nadal for MS 1000 titles @ 27-27.
- Djokovic stretches the lead in the h2h series to 25-23 over Rafa.
- Djokovic narrows the gap in career titles to 67-62.
1) Already ahead or tied:
a. Wks @ #1: 184-141. By my calc., it is mathematically impossible for Djokovic to lose the #1 ranking before Rome, even if he takes the spring off.
b. Yrs @ #1: Confirmed as YE #1 for '15, so 4-3 as of the end of the yr.
c. WTF's: already ahead 5-0.
d. If we include ind. Slams, then he's bound to finish ahead in Australia; now ahead @ Wimbledon & USO.
2) Can realistically catch up:
a. Masters Series titles: Djokovic has won the last 4 and is certainly likely to win sev. more. 27-26; gap in finals now 41-38. Gap in SF's now 57-51.
b. Career h2h: 24-23 to Djokovic.
c. Career h2h rec. vs others: matchups consisting of 5 matches or >, Djokovic only trails Roddick & Nadal only trails Davydenko. If Djokovic wins his next match vs Nadal, he will trail only Roddick, while Nadal will trail Davydenko & Djokovic. It w/b difficult for Djokovic to catch up in majors, esp. w/ Nadal winning Slam Wooden Spoons and falling before the 1st wk is over in 3 str. Slams. Perhaps when Nadal is a non-seed in a Slam, he'll be drawn vs Djokovic in Rd 1.
d. Career titles: Titles: 67-61. Finals: 99-87. SF's: 130-122. W/ regard to my later update, Djokovic overtakes Agassi with a 61-60 lead in career titles.
3) Not much chance:
a. GS titles: I don't see Djokovic winning 6 more, so Nadal s/b safe even if he wins no further titles. 14-11.
b. Career winning %: Djokovic leads 82.70 - 82.64!
Other categories suggested:
a. Wins over top 10 ops: Djokovic 151-133 Nadal. 163-136.
b. Career match wins: Djokovic 677-758 Nadal. 698-771. ...That's down to 81, but still @ least a yr's worth of match wins).
c. Slam match wins: Djokovic 214-198 Nadal.
d. Slam finals reached: Djokovic 18-20 Nadal. 19-20. Djokovic now = 3rd in this category. If he makes just one more Slam final, then he, Fed, & Nadal w/b the 1st 3 men ever to make 20 Slam finals
e. Slam SF's reached: Djokovic 28-23 Nadal. 29-23.
f. Slam 1/4-finals reached: Djokovic 34-29 Nadal. 35-29.
g. Slam match winning %: Nadal leads 86.84 - 86.29 [198-30 vs 214-34].
Of the 9 most important HC events, he's won 4 of them 5 X's or more, 5 of them 4 X's or more, & 7 of them 3 X's or more. Only @ the USO & Cinci is he not a 3 X champion. If we include all finals, then the list is:
US Open: 6
Aussie Open: 6
WTF's: 5
IW: 6
Miami: 6
Canadian Open: 4
Cinci: 5
Shanghai: 3
Paris Bercy: 4
---
If Djokovic were to stop playing now? By the #'s, Sampras' > than Nole. When you rank those stats by importance it's very clear...The 3 most important stats are probably all unreachable by Djokovic too.
GS Titles: Sampras
Cons. YE #1: Sampras
YE #1: Sampras
WTF: Sampras (=, but Sampras won over a longer stretch)
MS 1000 titles: Djokovic
Career Win %: Djokovic
Win % @ GS events: Djokovic
3 Slam seasons: Djokovic
Longest streak of SFs in GS: Djokovic
Longest streak of QFs in GS: Djokovic***
***Is it harder to win all 4 Slams of the year or all 9 Masters + WTF?***
ReplyDeleteA big 'eyeroll' for even creating the poll! It's not happening! Nole's done the best you can w/ the Masters, being in finals of all 8 played, winning 6 and taking 3 of 4 Majors; being in all 4 finals! His '15 is truly the greatest since Lavers' '69!
***Djokovic record vs the other members of the Big 4 on slow HC (AO, IW, Miami) is 25-3.
Djokovic-Federer 7-1
Djokovic-Nadal 7-1
Djokovic-Murray 11-1
Federer beat him at '07 AO, Nadal in '07 IW, & Murray in '09 Miami...
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...After the 5 hr, 5 set Rome final btw Federer & Nadal, both withdrew from the Hamburg Masters due to exhaustion. The problem lies simply in the scheduling. There s/b at least a wk in btw Masters events.***
I put a lot of the reasoning in the homogenized courts and the stupid way people play tennis; hugging the baseline and rarely going to the net except for the obligatory handshake and picking up the winner's check! Back in the day, you rarely had 20-30 stroke rallies; common place now w/ games running 10 mins or more! That's on the players IMO; esp. Roger who has the ability to charge the net more and cut off those "so called" fabulous "gets" which are just floating back asking to be pounded away! He's got it in his mind, "I can hang w/ these 20 somethings as long as I want!" That's delusion at its worst!
***Fiero that's true of course. But don't you think it's about 4 to 5 yrs too late? Not that this wasn't true even before then. Still, there was some wisdom in not breaking a winning formula up until '10. ...,but after the rest of '12 & after '13? It isn't all delusion. He simply couldn't get out of his comfort zone and risk going back to the old aggressive style he had dropped a decade earlier. He feels more comfortable consistently beating the rest of the tour as opposed to take risks for winning the big ones.
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It's easy for us to project a player's past abilities into the future. Even if it were possible, it requires that the player has the confidence to unlearn & relearn. Your instincts take over on the court and rewiring your instincts is hard and usually pointless past a players peak.***
Well I've been kvetchin' about this type of play for OVER 10 years and if Federer doesn't change his mental aspect of his game, he'll start losing more; sorta like his past "so-called" rival, Rafa! Losing in the 2nd or 3rd Rd will become the norm and it'll get uglier as X goes on! If he thinks he can be "Jimmy Connors" playing like that until he's 40, he's more delusional than I thought!
***Djoko has largely dominated the tour for the last 5 yrs:
ReplyDelete# of Slams won (since '11):
1- Djoko: 10
2- Nadal: 5
3- Murray: 2
4- Wawa: 2
(So Djoko has won more slam titles than the next best 3 COMBINED)
# of WTFs won:
1- Djoko: 4
2- Fed: 1
# of Masters won:
1- Djoko: 22
2- Nadal: 9
3- Fed: 7
4- Murray: 5
(There again, he's won more Master titles than the next best 3 combined)
# of titles won:
1- Djoko: 44
2- Nadal: 24
3- Fed: 22
4- Murray: 19
# of YE's @ #1:
1- Djoko: 4
2- Nadal: 1
Head to heads:
Vs Fed: 18-9 Djoko
Vs Nadal: 18-7 Djoko
Vs Murray: 18-6 Djoko - (What's up w/ that # 18 fetish? :)
Vs Wawa: 11-2 Djoko
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Who's Novak's main rival since '14?
VS Federer (8-6)
(3 Major finals, 1 SF, 2 WTF Finals)
4-0 in Majors
1-1 in WTF (2-1 includ. retirement)
3-5 in Masters, Others
VD Murray ( 11-1)
(2 Major finals, 1 SF & 1 QF)
4-0 in Majors
7-1 in Masters, others
VS Stan ( 4-2)
(1 final, 1 SF & 1 QF)
1-2 in Majors (the 1 match Novak won was in 5 sets)
1-0 in WTF
2-0 in Master
-
Certainly since '14 it feels like Federer due to having faced him in the 3 Major Finals....esp. 2 Wimbledon Finals. In reality though Djokovic is largely w/o peer @ the min. & regardless whether it's decided t/b Federer, Stan or Murray...there's a fair bit of day light btw them & Novak @ the min.
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I thought Nadal was gonna get like 19 majors. Djok lost way too many finals. Otherwise, he'd be sitting on 14 or 15 already. Boris freaking Becker brought him to another level. Father X remains undefeated, however.***
Nadal? 19? I've been saying for years his run would come to a screeching halt due to the physical nature of his game! He was already breaking down several yrs ago; unable to stay on the court more than a few months! Why in the world would you think he could keep up this pace of winning a couple major, having to recoup from injury (or secret suspension for PED use), then start back up again? For GODsake, his only real patsy was Roger while others were stealing his thunder! His fallback was winning on clay and he couldn't even sustain that starting in '11! By the X he lost in straights to Nole at the FO last season, he was officially DONE! He's a huge joke and anyone who thinks it will turn around anyX soon is a homer and delusional; SORRY!
***...Nole was just outplayed in Paris. He's lost in Cinci everyX he's played it. Is he tanking the clay Masters so to win RG? No! He's won some fair and square and lost the others just the same way and still never won the FO. And that has nothing to do w/ the preceding events.***
ReplyDeleteIt's all in the timing IMO! In the 2nd 1/2 of the season, he had t/b tired and those weren't easy wins to make those finals in Canada & Cincy; that's all I was thinking of! He was more fresh to win those clay events before the FO where he was extended by Murray unnecessarily in the semi before losing final to Stan! Even when he won the 1st set, I thought he was in trouble and wasn't surprised he lost it in the end! He seems to have a mental block at the FO; even in command, it's just not over until it's over!
***You want to talk about mental blocks....try watching Federer in finals or semis vs Djokovic for the last 7 yrs save for a few here and there where he hasn't wimped out. If 34 yo Federer can beat Djokovic to win Cinci and still make the final of the '15 USO, I think that's a losing argument right there. Djokovic has his trusty CVAC in New Jersey just btw for the USP so that's a nonsense excuse and you know it. And he wasn't tired against Wawrinka at the FO. lol. The guy just played insanely well and deserves a lot more credit than that. Novak can't & doesn't win everything.***
He's come the closest since the days of Laver & Rosewall; 6 of 8 Masters (all finals) & 3 of 4 majors & took his pet 500 in Beijing! His '15 actually was better than '11 where he lacked the YE Chp. in London! He doesn't need all of those wins, but he seriously seems to be trying!
***I have Fed currently @ having achieved nearly 28% > than Nole - if you quantify the pts they have won at 500 level & above, using current ATP weightings. That 28% gap though is shrinking fast:
That is:
For ease I have reduced the weighting pts down by a factor of 1000; eg. Slams are worth 2 instead of their ATP 2000.
Scale is: (SV x 2) + (SEFNL x 1.5) + (SEFOL x 1.3) + (SEFRUNL x 1) + (SRU x 1.2) + (TOP9 x 1) + (TOP9RU x 0.60) + (SEFRUOL x 0.80) + (OSG x 0.75) + (SSF x 0.72) + (SEFSFNL x 0.60) + (500S x 0.50)
Federer = (17 x 2) + (5 x 1.5) + (1 x 1.3) + (3 x 1) + (10 x 1.2) + (24 x 1) + (18 x 0.60) + (1 x 0.80) + (0 x 0.75) + (12 x 0.72) + (1 x 0.60) + (17 x 0.50) = 111.14
Djokovic = (11 x 2) + (3 x 1.5) + (2 x 1.3) + (0 x 1) + (8 x 1.2) + (28 x 1) + (12 x 0.60) + (0 x 0.80) + (0 x 0.75) + (10 x 0.72) + (0 x 0.60) + (12 x 0.50) = 87.1
Nadal = (14 x 2) + (0 x 1.5) + (0 x 1.3) + (2 x 1) + (6 x 1.2) + (27 x 1) + (14 x 0.60) + (0 x 0.80) + (1 x 0.75) + (3 x 0.72) + (1 x 0.60) + (16 x 0.50) = 84.11
The current ATP weightings.
•Slam Victories (SV) 2000 ATP pts
•Slam R-ups (SRU) 1200 ATP pts
•Slam SF's (SSF) 720 ATP pts
•'Season End' final victories w/ no loss b4 F (SEFNL) 1500 ATP pts
•SE final victories w/ 1 loss b4 F (SEFOL) 1300 ATP pts
•SE final R-ups w/ no loss b4 F (SEFRUNL) 1000 ATP pts
•SE final R-ups w/ 1 loss b4 F (SEFRUOL) 800 ATP pts
•SE final SF's w/ no loss b4 SF (SEFSFNL) ATP 600 pts
•Masters 1000 = victories (Top 9) ATP 1000 pts
•Masters 1000 = R-ups (TOP9RU) ATP 600 pts
•OG Metal Singles (OSG) ATP 750 pts
•500 Series = (500S) ATP 500 pts***
***There's so much talk about Djokovic potentially breaking the slam record of 17. IMO too much talk as such talk s/b when someone is really already in striking range (eg- 3 slams or < and still going super strong; so not Nadal today) However there's no talk about Nole possibly breaking Federer's 302 wks @ #1, or even Sampras's 6 YE #1's.
ReplyDeleteI personally do think Djokovic has a decent shot @ the slam record. I would go as far as to say Djokovic is extremely likely to get both those records. If he's still #1 (w/o having lost it at any point) when the new rankings came out on 5/6/18, he'll have tied Federer's wks @ #1. Is there even a soul here who thinks barring a HUGE (like missing 5 months of tennis minimum) injury Djokovic will lose #1 at any point before then? Furthermore Djokovic being YE #1 in '16 is a slam dunk already; '17 is extremely likely. At least tying Sampras' YE #1 mark (and passing him in ITF #1's) is very likely. Should he still be #1 at the end of '18 (IMHO late '18 is the earliest I could possibly see someone else even challenging for #1) breaking it.
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Most wks @ #1, most YE #1's, most M1000's, most WTF Titles, most Career Prize Money, Nole Slam, CGS, Golden Masters slam. These are very realistic records Djokovic is gonna set. So, even if Djoker gets to 16, he has a gr8 chance to win the GOAT debate! - Basically the way I look at it is who else c/b #1 in the next 2+ years from today?
Wawrinka, Federer, Nadal- hell no on each one. I think even the most ardent fans of each of these would fully concede there is virtually no chance of any of those ever being #1 ranked again (or in Wawrinka's case ever of course).
It w/b pretty much a major shock if Djokovic doesn't break most of the #1 records. Much more obvious than the slam record which yes, some think he has a good shot at (some others think the complete op.), but is practically a big "who knows" at this point.
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I don't think Nole'll win more than 8 AO's. If I had to guess now it w/b that he ends up w/ exactly 8. While it's his best slam, he'll play 1 < in the future than the other slams as it has already taken place, and eventually you have to think some people who haven't won there will. ...He still has more to prove at the other slams, imparticular RG & the USO. I think he'll be hungrier at those moving forward, & combined that he has 1 more to play at both, he could well at least as many future slams at those 2 venues as the AO.
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The CYGS is enormously difficult to pull off. As dominant as Djokovic seems, he has shown himself vulnerable in the past even when people assumed he would win. The field "appears" weak, but the more Djokovic is hyped, the more pressure w/b placed on his shoulders and the more fired up guys like Kyrgios, Thiem, & Zverev w/b to knock him off.***
It's the beginning of the end for both Rafa and Roger! The longer they stay on the tour, the more it hurts their legacies IMO! Borg left in '81, but had still won the FO over Lendl! Losing the finals of Wimbledon & USO were used as an excuse, but he didn't really want to retire! The ATP wouldn't give him much needed X away after so many yrs on tour; since he was 15 IIRC! He was always under pressure due to the way he played & then giving him an early high seeding due to Wimbledon boycott of the men in '73! They've revised the rules to accommodate the top players so this shouldn't happen to Nadal and Roger, but both might want to leave the tour anyway due to precipitous drops in results; esp. Roger not winning any majors since Wimbledon 4 yrs ago!
*** - http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx263/zvelf/Misc/Djokovic_v_Federer_era.jpg -
ReplyDeleteDjokovic only won a slam in '12, '13 & '14. ...There has been some stroke of luck in the fact that Roger can compete, but has no stamina to take it the distance. Nadal's style of play has finally caught up to his body, and Andy's still that same moody kid who pouts when things head South. Occasionally, those 4 men break out of their particular afflictions & score a win over Djokovic, but very rare & growing even rarer on the big stages.***
Near perfection in '11 almost killed Nole! ...I give him a break in those yrs where Roger got his 17th @ Wimbledon & Andy came into his own, Rafa's reprieve in '13 taking back the #1 ranking, & '14 adjusting to Becker's enlightenment & encouragement getting him ready for Wimbledon!
***Did you watch USO '11 F? Novak demolished Nadal w/ his BH & FH. I think Novak won over 50% return pts. He CRUSHED Peak Nadal in '11.***
That USO & subsequent AO in '12 tells you all you need to know about how comp. those yrs were; sets taking well over an hr, matches going 4+ hrs, saving of MP's, breaks when serving for it, etc.! I think Nole had learned to "give back" all that stalling to Nadal to teach him a lesson & all it did was punish the fans! Almost 6 hrs; 11 hrs w/ the semi vs Murray! How could Nole be anything but drained for the next yr trying to win that 1 title?
***I think that match affected both Nadal & Nole. Nadal had a fresh start & advantage, but Novak served & returned better.***
Not me! I've been trying to push him off the tour since his last major win 4 yrs ago! I really think he's hurting his legacy even making final after final only to go down in flames to the current #1! It's starting t/b like Connors in his later yrs; more a placeholder than a true champ.! He needs help like Soderling at '09 FO! His last definitive win IMO was AO in '10! His Wimbledon in '12 was a gift!
***Good tournament in MC for Roger. I was hoping he would play 2 matches; played 3.***
He seemed to play well enough, but X is definitely not on his side! When it gets to the crunch near the end, he looks more his age!
***I think we've got 2, maybe 3 more yrs of Roger. I said recently that I think this is his last yr in the top 5. He'll play through '17, & maybe '18 if he's still top 10. But I w/b surprised to see him beyond '18. Same w/ Rafa.***
Some players just don't know when to bow out! The $$$'s too good I guess! The majors alone cough up $2+ M for the winners!
***He enjoys playing & he's still doing well, so why not leave him to it? We're going to miss all these great players when they go. Imagine the tennis world w/o them.***
I understand what you're saying & agree, but OTOH, I feel you stunt the next gen. thru reverence for past champions' accomplishments! I reference Michelle Kwan in figure skating that hung on for a good yr or 2 too long and it influenced the development of a great skater like Sasha Cohen! You can say, beat her, but psychologically it has to play on other athletes' minds when a legend is hanging around! Sampras left right on X & it changed the next wave, allowing Hewitt t/b #1 for 2 years, extended the career of Agassi, & didn't cast a shadow over the pending genius of Fed.
***The next gen. are stunted. They're so stunted, they're barely a stub. They needed to shove Federer out of the way, but they lack cojones. This has been a problem for a long X in the sport, the deference of the makeweights, the also-rans, the rollover jackpots. Fed retiring won't suddenly turn a bunch pigs ears into a shining batch of silk purses.***
***...My fave read on TTW is "is Djokovic A 1 Slam Wonder?"***
ReplyDeleteThe experts like McEnroe & Wilander stepped in it for yrs! First Nadal's the best ever! After that, Nole might win over Nadal someX, but it won't ever be on clay, then he won't win in BO5 @ a major!
***Trust me, all of these "experts" claiming Novak'll brk every record will change their tune as soon as he loses a couple matches.***
How perfect does he have t/b for you? He's had 5 years of near great results w/ the last season having him break all kinds records; some set for life IMO! He's inching up the list so fast, it's hard not to think if he keeps it up for 2 more yrs, it m/b in vogue to say "FEDAL who?"
***5 yrs of near great results? No, he had a fantastic '11 & then regressed a little bit until '14. He then had another great yr in '15, but it can't go on like that forever; esp. since he's in his late 20s. ...As for people saying FEDAL who? That won't ever happen, no matter what Djokovic manages to achieve. All 3 are greats & their legacies are set.***
I've never been on Nole's bandwagon saying he won't ever lose, but it's been impressive w/ "runs" @ Masters & the YEC that may never be achieved in my lifeX again! Winning IW & Miami b2b like that the last few yrs & then adding a clay event in MC last season; well Fedal never did that! Hell, Nadal's never defended a title off the clay surface! What all X great has that kind of legacy? Federer's been close, but he needed Soderling to help in his quest for a FO in '09! I hope he got him something nice to fulfill that glaring hole in his resume; say a house back in Sweden! I could go on, but I might sound like a sycophant and I'm not; preferring the game of Sampras as 1 of my all X faves!
***I hate fucking Tsonga. Only plays good vs Roger ON CLAY. Retard. "Why don't you beat Rafa or Novak so often?" Aaaaaaaaa. Why does Roger get this idiot in his MC draw all the X. Why didn't Murray get him; or anyone else basically? No, it had to be Fed. Wow.***
Roger had his chance! He won the 1st set which was key and even though he lost the 2nd, he served 1st in the 3rd! He allowed Jo to get up 15-30 twice near the end on his serve and it finally cost him! It wasn't like he ran away w/ it! There are several telltale signs of age and 1 of them is when it gets tight, misses will come to cost them! He was at the net & missed a routine volley when trying to break back @ 6-5; that's on Roger! He might have salvaged a win if he had gotten into that TB! Jo can get tight as well; still remember him having 4 MP's vs Nole at the FO a few years ago and choked it away on clay! It happens!
***Fiero, I'm as anxious as anyone for the next gen. to arrive, but I'm also happy to see Roger, as well as Rafa & Novak, around for as long as possible. Furthermore, if younger players can't beat them, well they don't deserve to reign over the tour. As I've said before, what we're seeing now is similar to what happened in the late 60s, when the younger gen. couldn't compete w/ old dudes like Rosewall & Laver. It wasn't until Ashe, Newcombe, Nastase, & Smith that younger players were able to take over, and these guys were all 6-12 years younger than the old guys. Talent comes in waves. There's a real low point in birth yrs of '89 to '94, w/ only a few semi-bright spots. It won't be until the guys born in '95-98 come into their own that we'll see a passing of the baton.***
***Nole did it! Congrats to all Novak fans... 12 Slams & counting! - Djokovic has more titles (17) than losses (9) since the start of '15.***
ReplyDeleteNot everyone can play the Olympics or would want to w/ the conditions of that toilet in RIO. ...Back in '13, Nole had an AO & was in the final of the other 3 majors, but made #1 over ATP's awarding the POY to Rafa who owned 2 majors! They've been @ odds forever which is why 1 runs the MAJORS while the other manages the rest of the tour!
***Who are your contenders for Wimbledon? Dark horses?***
Nole w/b under immense pressure after winning FO & it w/b nice if he could match Rafa, Roger, & Bjorn in taking it the same season! ...Raonic has a new team working for him including McEnroe, so he's my dark horse! Neither Fed or Nadal will play or make the semi's IMO!
***It's not that these guys are just "too good" for Andy, it's just that he isn't good enough if that makes sense. Tennis fans deserve a better #2. Until then we're just gonna have to make do w/ him.***
The way I see it, Murray has the ability, but doesn't keep it up; probably burning himself out w/ his passion early on! He's usually sucking wind after 2 hrs of playing that stupid defensive game when he came out smoking & attacking the net! ...Murray wastes so much energy w/ his "come ons" and needlessly upsetting the crowd w/ his rants to himself & player's box! It's like he doesn't see it happen again & again! He points to his head when something good happens; probably should do the same when he does idiotic things as well!
***I'm going to say this is how Nole will end his resume:
Australian Open: 7
French Open: 1
Wimbledon: 5
U.S. Open: 3
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I think I'm going to revise mine a bit:
AO: 8 (He's comfortable here & can eek 2 more wins)
Currently @ 6
FO: 2 (Now that he broke the barrier, he'll nab a 2nd)
Currently @ 1
Wimbledon: 4-5
Currently @ 3
USO: 4
Currently @ 2***
To me, it's about X Nole had a pigeon in the final like past champions; say a Goffin, Berdych, or Ferrer! No champion has had it as tough as The Djoker going up vs the likes of Roger, Rafa, & Andy as much as him! Fed & Rafa have had their share for Gawd-sake!
***Of the 20 GS finals that Novak played, in 18 of them he faced Roger, Rafa or Andy across the net. The 2 exceptions are Tsonga in '08 AO & Stan in RG '15. The chances that he'll face Roger or Rafa in the finals in future is obviously dramatically decreasing. While he may continue to face Andy for some more finals, I'm very sure that he'll get his own fair share of pigeons in the near future.***
Tsonga doesn't count since that was his 1st major! Stan is better than Andy so Nole's really been put through the ringer to win his titles; bar none!
...That's why it's a sad state now w/ Fedal gone b/c Nole has a clear path to unlimited greatness which he doesn't deserve as clearly he's an inferior player to both Fed & Nadal.***
You almost had me until the gratuitous insult of the greatest returner in tennis history! There are plenty of good players; just don't know how to finish him off! Kei, Theim, Raonic, & others are more than competent & represent the sport well! They've just been unlucky enough to have to deal w/ 3 of the best in the game at the same X! Hewitt wouldn't have been "anybody" if born a couple yrs earlier or later; he lucked out! Players like Wawrinka, Murray, Cilic, Gasquet, Tsonga, Ferrer, & Berdych weren't so fortunate & it stopped them from taking at least a couple majors!
***I don't think there's any doubting when it's all said and done that Novak w/b considered a > all round player than Nadal ever was and in terms of current standing on this supposed "GOAT List."***
***...I think Nole wins at least 2 more Slams after this year, so if he gets to 13 by year's end, then I would put it at 15-16.***
ReplyDeleteI think we're all being very cons. in the count! He should pick up at least 1 more this season & 2 more next year! There's no reason to believe anyone on the tour right now can stop him from adding to his count consistently for the next 3 yrs even w/ history showing how difficult it is after turning 30! He's in great shape, quite flexible, & the tour is deficient mentally & can't seem to compete at his level for any length of X! There are great players, but they can't seem to stay on court themselves for more than a month or so; esp. Raonic & Kei! Things could change, but right now I see no reason to believe Nole can't break all the top records or add to his own!
***I think Novak wins somewhere in the 15-18 range.
Or to put it another way...
...if he wins no more this year he'll win 15 total
...if he wins 1 more this year he'll win 16-17 total
...if he wins 2 more this year he'll win 17-18 total
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Five stages of Fedal Fan Grief:
• Stage 1: Denial
• Stage 2: Anger
• Stage 3: Weak Era Argument
• Stage 4: Depression
• Stage 5: Acceptance
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If Djokovic wins OG & CYGS this year, does he become better than Federer? Even though he has 3 Slams <, the CYGS is so tough to achieve. Fed failed to achieve it every single yr, even when he was at his absolute peak. If Djokovic does it this year, as well as obtain OG, surely this makes him better. If you also add in the other achievements - more YE #1's, more YEC's, more Masters titles, winning H2H over Nadal etc. Then there's a strong case for him being better than Federer if he achieves OG & CYGS this year.
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Perhaps about = b/c 6 in a row + the much coveted CYGS w/b a massive deal. Maybe >, maybe not. - Novak has been to the finals of 21 of the last 22 1st tier events (Masters, Master Cup, & Slams). I love Roger fans calling weak era b/c those world beaters Fed had to beat from '03-07 on a fast court were so fearsome.***
People seem to forget USO semi of '10 & '11 where Roger was still in his prime w/ MP's vs Nole, but allowed him to come back w/ spectacular play & aplomb! That was 5 or 6 yrs ago! Was Roger doddering even then? People have such short memories; or what I call "willful blindness!"
***Or '07 when a puppy/asthmatic Djokovic beat Roger, Rafa, & Andy on cons. days, then the #1, 2, & 3 players in the world. Could you imagine the reaction if a 19 or 20 yo guy did that today? Plus he ran Roger real close in the USO final that year, lost in str. sets, but had SP's in every single set & basically choked the match away by wasting them.
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I would ?? Federer being in his prime then. As a Nadal fan I'm honest enough to say that in his sight, I don't think he was @ his very peak in '08 W or AO '09 finals. Fed had dominated for 5 yrs & mentally & physically it must have took its toll, then Nadal & Djokovic appear young & fresh w/ big games.
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...btw neither Fed or Nadal won 4 straight Slams. He's Laverovic you have to deal w/ that now.***
They'll start to undermine it saying "it means nothing if not w/i a CY!" I think I heard it for the 1st X w/ Agassi just to pump up his resume! It was nothing like Martina's run of 6 majors in a row and they still give her no credit for that!
***Of course, I guarantee the more Djokovic wins the more boring & arrogant he gets, the more he becomes the death of tennis, the more his era becomes weak. The funny thing is for years we all said that Fed's rollover gen. of contemporaries was laughably weak. ...Now that someone other than Fed is dominating even more impressively than Federer & threatening many of his records all of sudden weak eras are everywhere. Not all Fed fans, just those that have to continually denigrate other greats who have supplanted Roger.***
***Nole just right passed his 29th birthday. Let us examine what happened to other all-X-greats at this stage.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Fed.
'10 USO Lost to Nole in SF
'11 AO Lost to Nole in SF
'11 RG Lost to Rafa in Final
'11 SW19 Lost to Tsonga in QF
'11 USO Lost to Nole in SF
'12 AO Lost to Rafa in SF
'12 RG Lost to Nole in SF
'12 SW19 Champion
'12 USO Lost to Berdych in QF
He reached at least QF's in the next 2 yrs (9 majors). If Rafa & Nole were taken away, he lost only twice to outliner, which m/b attributed to his aging. That is really amazing.
In Pistol’s case, he was only a factor in USO after 29th BD & there were no Rafa or Nole stopping him. Ironically he didn’t face Agassi until his swan song. Pete fell from peak much more steeply. Though both Pistol and Fed won only 1 major after 29th birthday, the context is very diff. It's as laughable to call 1 X wonder the same btw Roddick & Gaudio.
In Agassi’s case, he won 6 after 29th BD. The baseline player didn’t necessarily age worse than S&V type. Nole’s style's closer to Agassi’s than Pete's & I didn’t see it disadvantage.
Playing style cannot tell much on aging pattern. Nole's diff. from Rafa that he doesn’t have repeated injury history. If his aging is anything close to Fed, 17 is not daydream in this WEAK ERA.
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1. You can see Roger's clear era of dominance, from '04-07, and then a plateau phase of '08-12, w/ '13-present being strongly declined. Actually, these charts clearly depict how Roger really hasn't won much from '13 to the present - that's the last 3 1/2 yrs.
2. '11 & '13 are the 2 yrs in which the Big 4 won every big title. I like to call '12 "The Year of the Big 4," b/c it was the most evenly balanced btw the 4. '08-13 is the range in which at least 3 of the 4 won Slams, & '05-14 is the range in which at least 2 won Slams.
3. Each of the Big 4 have had 1 year in which they did not have any shares of big titles: '13 for Roger, '15 for Rafa, '10 for Novak, & '14 for Murray.
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Nole has a 3 yr window (14 slam ops left counting the remaining to 2) to surpass Federer to win 5-6 more slams. So basically he has to win < than 1/2 of the remaining Slams btw now and the USO '19 to surpass Federer. I think thats probable, barring injury. What's he gonna be in '19; 32 yrs of age? Thats nothing. Not to mention Nole was a late bloomer compared to Nadal. Thats also not to mention, he could very well win more @ 33-34 yrs old (I mean Fed was still reaching slam finals @ 34 as was Agassi even at 35). Nole's good for at LEAST 1 more slam this year, ending the year at 13. Getting nervous yet Fed fans?
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...You lost me w/ '11-16 being a stronger era. Meanwhile the guy who Novak beat at RG is a mighty 2-8 in Slam finals. Am I missing something or are there other guys out there challenging Novak? Stan 2 matches every decade? Last 3 Slam finals Fed & Djokovic played 'guess who' had an overwhelming advantage. Could it be the guy nearly 34/35? I think not. Pull the other 1 w/ the nonsense that this is a strong era in tennis right now, please, 'cos no 1 at all is buying that.***
***Have the past 12 months been the most dominant period of any male player ever? Nole's rec:
ReplyDeleteWon Wimbledon
Won US Open
Won Beijing
Won Shanghai
Won Paris Indoors
Won WTF
Won Doha
Won AO
Won IW
Won Miami
Won Madrid
Won RG
Final Canada
Final Cinci
Final Rome
Largest pt diff. btw 1 & 2
52 str. wks @ #1
Winning H2H vs all main rivals
YE #1
If that doesn't make it the most dominant 12 months, then IDK what will.
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Speaking about W/L % as a most significant criteria of greatness & dominance:
Match record * % W–L
1. Sweden- Björn Borg 83.4 136–27
2. Serbia- Novak Djokovic 82.8 288–60
3. Spain- Rafael Nadal 82.29 316–68
4. USA- John McEnroe 82.28 195–42
5. Czech.- Ivan Lendl 81.7 223–50
6. Switz.- Roger Federer 77.1 330–98
And if No1e have 33% more slams in last 12 months than Fed in '06, but have a poorer performance b/c of W/L % than will Fed have a poorer career performance than No1e when No1e wins another Slam. He will have 30% more slams, but poorer W/L records!
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Since losing the FO final last yr, Djokovic has won 12 titles includ. all 4 majors, the WTF & 5 Masters 1000s. His W-L record is 85-6. I'm just wondering if these past 12 months c/b regarded as the most dominant by any player in history, and not just in the Open Era. I'm not sure about Laver's stats, but perhaps he had an even more impressive run in the late '60s. - Djokovic is the only man to have ever reached 3 cons. finals for each of the Slams. This is why he'll continue to win majors b/c you have to keep making it there. The min. you have a string of poor results @ a Slam the harder it gets.
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21 of the last 22 1st tier events; Masters, Year ender, & Slams have featured Djokovic in the final w/ him winning 17 of those. He has now won 5 of the last 6 Slams as well. No, we have never seen dominance like this; not even in Fed's heyday. Novak goes into every match on every surface vs every opp. as the fave. Even in Fed or Nadal's heyday, you simply couldn't make that statement.***
***Yep - and Pete had the nerve to downplay the legitimacy of clay as a surface to excuse his shocking results LMAO.***
ReplyDeleteAs X goes on, poor Petey will continue to drop in the GOAT discussion unfortunately! I was on the bandwagon just 10 yrs ago giving him the highest accolades even w/o a FO final played! At the X, he was so far ahead of his closest rivals & dwarfed the records of past greats, we were all ready to give him a pass on taking a FO title! He had 14 Majors which was significant back then and we were ready to carry his water to place him above Laver; now he's fallen back down due to awesome results of Roger, Rafa, & Nole! He's seen his stock truly fall! Laver's 2 CYGS; 1 as an amateur & 1 as a pro in '69 put him above Sampras for good even though 3 Majors short! OTTH, the old & new GOAT lists are as follows:
Before '06:
1- Sampras (14 Major - 6 YE #1)
2- Laver (11 Majors - 2 CYGS '62 & '69)
3- Borg (11 Majors - 5 Str. SW19 & 6 FO's)
4- Emerson (12 Majors - CGS in Singles & Dbls)
5- Connors (8 Majors)
6- Lendl (8 Majors)
7- Agassi (8 Majors - CGS)
8- McEnroe (7 Majors)
9- Wilander (7 Majors)
10- Tilden (10 Majors)
After '10 so far, but could change:
1- Federer (17 Majors -7 SW19's, 5 USO's, 4 AO's, 1 FO, 302 wks @ #1 & CGS)
2- Djokovic (12 Majors - 200+ wks @ #1, CGS, the most Masters 1000's, winning rec. over his closest rivals)
3- Nadal (14 Majors - 9 FO's)
4- Laver (11 Majors - 2 CYGS '62 & '69)
5- Sampras (14 Major - 6 YE #1)
6- Borg (11 Majors - 5 Str. SW19 & 6 FO's)
7- Agassi (8 Majors - CGS)
8- Lendl (8 Majors)
9- Connors (8 Majors)
10- McEnroe (7 Majors)
***Good stuff, Fiero. 1st of all, you really should include Pro Slams among majors, which would give Laver 19, not 11. He spent most of his best years on the pro tour and won 8 Pro Slams. As you likely know, the Pro Slams were shorter tourneys, more like the WTF's today - but they included the very best players on tour; far better than the Amateur Slams during the 60s.
But maybe Laver & Rosewall belong to the pre-Open Era, and we should treat them differently. As I see it, right now Federer maintains his hold as the greatest of the Open Era, at least in terms of career accomplishments. After him you have Sampras, Nadal, & Djokovic clustered together in some order. By the end of this year I think Novak will have separated himself from the other 2, even if he only wins 1 more Slam.
TENNISBASE.COM'S ALL-X RANKINGS
1. Rod Laver 2836
2. Ken Rosewall 2607
3. Roger Federer 2603
4. Bill Tilden 2361
5. Novak Djokovic 2182
6. Ivan Lendl 2162
7. Rafael Nadal 1990
8. Pancho Gonzales 1985
9. Jimmy Connors 1845
10. Pete Sampras 1808
11. John McEnroe 1747
12. Bjorn Borg 1636
13. Andre Agassi 1555
14. Tony Wilding 1414
15. Boris Becker 1323
16. Don Budge 1310
17. Roy Emerson 1278
18. Bobby Riggs 1189
19. Stefan Edberg 1184
20. Laurence Doherty 1163
It's interesting to note that they rank Novak ahead of Rafa, which is something I did earlier in the year and got a bit of (friendly) flack for. It's also clear that Roger will soon pass Rosewall, but probably not Laver. I can agree w/ that as I think Rod Laver--not Roger--has t/b considered the all-X #1. I'd probably also put Lendl below Nadal & Sampras, and Connors below Borg & McEnroe. Borg's the hardest player to rank b/c his career was so short & we didn't see what his decline phase would have looked like.***
***...in Nov. of last yr, which I post again w/ some adds:
ReplyDelete1. From '11 thru '13, the Big 4 won 41/42 of the big events, w/ only Ferrer's lone win in Paris in '12 bucking the trend.
2. '14 was their least dominant yr for a decade, w/ 4 'non-big 4' winners, when there had never been more than 3 since '04!
3. But in '15 it reverted & went back down to only 1 'non-big 4' winner - 1 of the top 4 most dominant Big 4 yr so far.
4. This stat is true of all of the Big 4: since winning their 1st 'Big 14' tourney, every member of the Big 4 has gone on to win at least 1 of the Big 14 events every yr from then on right up to the present, except for 1 dodgy yr for each of them. For Novak, it was '10, for Roger '13, for Andy '14 & for Rafa '15.
Will '16 be another of these yrs, or will all the 'Big 4' win at least 1 of the 'Big 14' next year?!
5. Despite the Big 4's dominance, there have only been 2 yrs so far where they won all 14 big events, '11 & '13.
In '11 all the Big 4 won big events, but in '13 it was just Novak, Andy & Rafa, as Roger had his dodgy yr.
(In both '12 & '15 they came close, winning 13/14, in '12 w/ all the big 4 winning big events, but in '15 just Novak, Andy & Roger, w/ Rafa having his dodgy yr.)
So far this yr, not only have all 7 big events been won by the Big 4, they have constituted 11/14 final spots too!
For comparison, last yr 25/28 final spots throughout the yr were filled by Big 4 members.
Also, over 1/2 of the big finals so far this yr (4 of the 7) have been Djokovic-Murray finals.
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...they thought Fed w/b an all X great even after his 1st major--they don't say that about everybody. Everybody was talking about Nadal as he came up. Folks talked about Nole when he was 19 having the talent t/b a great player--not just good, but great. Roger, Rafa & Nole are greats b/c they are simply better, particularly when it counts.***
It has been a strange merry-go-round w/ these 3 players! You had Roger dominating initially starting in '03, winning everything in sight; 3 major finals 3 X's! The tide turned a little w/ the ascension of Rafa; esp. @ the FO! He started to impose his will on Roger, finally beating him on all surfaces; even Wimbl. grass! Then along came Nole defeating them both & taking 3 majors of his own in '11! They played a little volleyball w/ the top ranking for a few yrs, now Nole has taken over for good! He's really exerting dom. on the tour; Majors, Masters, & now 4 str. WTF wins @ O2! They all are CGS winners, but unlike Roger & Rafa, Nole owns all 4 Slams at the moment w/ a chance at a CYGS this season after taking his 1st FO title over a relative pigeon & perennial "also-ran," Murray! Right now, it doesn't look like anyone can stop him from overtaking all the Open records, but it can change w/ this new gen. of players like Theim, Kei, & Raonic; we'll see!
***...There simply aren't any players on tour right now that are capable of a consistently high level of play to seriously challenge Novak.
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...to take out Novak, 1 needs consistent high level of play in just 1 match. Many people like Simon, Belluci, etc. have come close before.***
But you have t/b able to finish; unlike Simon who was on top of Nole who committed 100 UFE & still let the match get away from him! Kei was beating him on clay a few wks ago & also allowed Nole to escape in a 3rd set TB! Murray was scary good in the 1st set of the FO, but he forgot how he beat him just a few wks before in Rome! It's all in their head & Nole doesn't panic! As soon as you ease up or miss a volley, he grabs them by the throat & snatches victory from defeat!
***We can plot Novak's career into 3 phases as below:
ReplyDeletePhase 1 : Fedal Era ('05- 10)
1 Major in 24 appearance
1 WTF in 4 app.
Phase 2 : Big 4 Era (2011-14 FO)
5 majors in 14 app.
2 WTF in 3 app.
Phase 3 : Murray's Strong Depth Era ('14 Wimb - til date)
6 majors in 8 app.
2 WTF in 2 app.
Extending this a little further til the end of this yr; cons. basis.
7 majors in 9 app.
3 WTF in 3 app.
How does Murray figure that the current era has more depth?
Roger has Rolex, Nadal has Richard Milles, Djokovic has...Seiko
Roger & Nadal have Nike, Djokovic has...Uniqlo
Roger has Mercedes, Nadal has KIA , Djokovic has....Peugeot - Fed '06
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I've mentioned before, that I think tennis s/b viewed as distinct eras:
•Pre Open Era
•Open Era '68-03
•Open Era '03-Present (Poly String/More regulated conditions)◦This era we've seen 3 cons. dominant players collect the CS & put up unheard of #'s - everyone includ. former & current players & fans alike conclude that tennis in '16 is a diff. game than tennis in '93. It's almost like hard-bat ping pong paddles vs Sponge Bats in table tennis - it's a completely diff. game.
It's clear that every dom. player from now on will amass a CS. Hell Murray might even end his career w/ a CS - it's really not out of the realm of discussion. Nole 6+ #1's is all but a forgone conclusion barring something freak happening (injury - another player becoming as dom.) Both of those are unlikely...I wonder what year we're going to see a player go undefeated the entire year - Nole was the closest yet - except m/b Federer when he lost 4 matches - Noles 41-0 start to '11 was ridiculous. - ...We know Nadal never had Feds Consistency or Dominance, but Novak's Rod Lavers Successor.
===
The '88-93 gen. are a joke. Nishikori's the highest ranked of that group @ #6. The top 5 is 29 & older. Nishikori fluked 1 slam victory over Djkovoic ('14 USO). Hasn't beaten him since & gotten drubbed every X. Where's the Marat Safin of the '93-97 gen. to show up & just grab a Slam? Alex Zverev is YEARS away. The tour isn't the same as in 2000 when it wasn't as much about fitness. Now everyone is incredibly fit & only Djokovic can win the Slams b/c he just doesn't make errors & you can't hit winners by him w/ enough regularity to matter. Federer tried @ 2015 USO final, but it was a futile effort. Andy Murray in the FO Final was a joke compared to Fed's effort in the USO Final and he's 6 yrs younger.
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(From the past; maybe 5 yrs ago) - Djokovic will never win another Slam.
*Oy vey said: ↑
2-3 more Slams, tops.
*soyizgood said: ↑
^^5 slams' definitely pushing it. I'm not sure he'll even make 5 slam finals for as long as Nadal holds up.
^^The 1st 4 pages are like diamonds.***
I love harking back to the proclamations of seasoned veterans like McEnroe and Wilander! They put so many limits on Nole years ago! Wilander in particular actually thought Rafa would own Nole for all time, saying he'll never beat Nadal on clay or Bo5 at a Slam! He's eating crow every time Djokovic comes onto the court because few if any thought his accomplishments were attainable by anyone, much less Nole! I've only gone with how I felt at the time and actually believed he had another chance of winning 4 majors in a row with multiple Masters to make it even more difficult for a record-breaker! His 2015 was actually better than 2011 and love checking the record book to see the updates where he's taken over or is running right behind Roger! Adding that YEC to 3 majors and 6 Masters was enough for me in '15, but it looks as if he has loftier goals of taking not only a NCGS, but an OGGS this season! I still wish he'd change his mind about going to RIO; just not worth it!
***Djokovic won the FO & not a single Fk was given.***
ReplyDeleteIt threatens the narrative & constant pontificating of the Fedal era! The media perpetuates it by musing back to a rivalry that never really existed! It's been a fraud since '08 when Roger finally fell to Rafa on his beloved grass court; his last refuge believed by the most loyal of fans! Even now, we'll never know if Roger truly still "has it" to turn around their H2H record as Nole has w/ them b/c 1 or both can't seem to reach their appointed Rds!
***- Djokovic leads Nadal in MS titles @ 29-28.
- Djokovic narrows the gap in Slams to 14-12.
- The gap in career titles stays at 4 at 69-65, but Djokovic overtakes Borg & Sampras, both of whom are on 64.
- Djokovic overtakes Agassi in finals, leading 92-90.
- Djokovic has won 8 of the MS events twice or >.
- Most importantly, Djokovic completes the CGS & gets a Novak Slam.
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1) Nole already ahead or tied w/ Rafa:
a. Wks @ #1: 204-141.
b. Yrs @ #1: Confirmed YE #1 for '15, so 4-3 as of the end of the yr. 4-3.
c. WTF's: 5-0.
2) Caught up:
a. Masters Series titles: 57-51. 29-28, 42-42 in finals.
b. Career H2H: 26-23 to Djokovic.
...
d. Career titles: @ the end of '15, he overtook Nastase & now leads 59-58 in career titles. ... Vilas' on 62, w/ Borg & Sampras tied on 64. So, if Djokovic wins 6 titles, he will overtake all of Agassi, Vilas, Borg, & Sampras. Titles: 69-65. Finals: 101-92. SF's: 135-127.
3) A chance:
a. GS titles: 14-12!
b. Career winning %: Djokovic leads 83.05 - 82.57!
Other categories suggested:
a. Wins over top 10 opps: Djokovic 151-133 Nadal 174-140.
b. Career match wins: 698 - 771. 730 - 796.
c. Slam match wins: Djokovic 221-200 Nadal.
...
e. Slam SF's reached: Djokovic 30-23 Nadal.
f. Slam QF's reached: Djokovic 36-29 Nadal.
g. Slam match winning %: Nadal leads 87.0 - 86.7 [200-30 vs 221-34]. Djokovic will overtake if he wins Wimbledon, although only very marginally.
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Djokovic certainly has a chance to break Fed's record. The only thing that could really prevent him from doing so are emerging new players & father X. Decade of stats have shown how hard winning a major past 30 is. Another 5 majors looks easily attainable based on how he plays now, but 5 majors after 30 is an entirely diff. beast.
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...Agreed. Putting Zverev, who is very inexperienced in front of a former finalist & more experienced up-and-comer seems very 'prisoner of the moment'***
But Zverev is on a run! Sometimes experience weighs on the veteran! How many good runs at majors do Tsonga, Cilic, Berdych, & Ferrer have w/ 50+ opportunities? They stink! I'm going all in w/ Zverev and Theim! We can only hope Kei & Milos back up their results! I'm so hoping they all continue this great stretch of tourney results! "Please back it up next season guys!"
***1. The Berdychs & Tsongas of the world have proven many X's that they can't deliver and so it does make some sense to have high odds on them.
2. ... Berdych, Gasquet, etc. certainly have > chances of going deep, but Zevrev probably has > chances of winning.
3. It's not like they're giving Zevrev a great chance to win either. They are just giving him 1% chance, that's all.
4. Finally, the odds have t/b understood from "business perspective" as well. Lots of people w/b likely to put $$ on Zevrev if they give him good odds than otherwise as he's currently trending. The bookies can have fun looting all these $$ as Zevrev's not yet ready to win a major.***
***...Murray's matches are no longer double the price of Djoke's, but not b/c people want to see him.***
ReplyDeleteLike Lendl, he's getting used to it! It obviously doesn't hurt his results!...The same thing happened to Martina in '81 after losing the USO to Austin! They cheered her on in '83 even though Evert was the opp.! She had 6 titles so NO TEARS for Chrissie's plight!
***...Novak got seeds 5 & 6 & Andy got seeds 7 & 8. There is a 16.66% chance of that happening @ Wimbledon. Combining both, this is the worst possible unbalanced 2 halves. Seeds 1, 3, 5 & 6 in top 1/2 & seeds 2, 4, 7 & 8 in bottom 1/2. There's only 8.33% chance of this worst case distrib. of top 8 seeds arising in a random draw & Andy managed to hit it.***
Oh ye of little faith! There's a reason Nole holds the record for defeating the most top 10'rs w/ 31 last season; takes on all comers! ...I think Andy's ready, but anything can happen; esp. if winning a warm-up event! Murray won Canada last yr; what good did it do him @ the USO?
***My prediction of 18 Slams--6 more than Nole has now--is based upon several factors: that he has shown no signs of decline yet, that the tour is particularly weak right now, & will continue t/b weak through @ least '17. Some decline's inevitable, although whether in '17, '18, or even '19 we don't know.
Novak has 3 Slams left before turning 30. If he wins all 3, he'll be @ 15, have won 7 Slams in a row, & not only be well situated to pass Roger to finish w/ 18+, but have a real chance to finish as the nearly-undisputed GOAT; @ least of the Open Era. If he wins 2 of those 3 Slams, he w/b @ 14 & still have a solid chance of passing Roger, but m/b more like 50-50. He'll probably finish in the 16-18 range, depending upon where he & the rest of the tour are @ a year from now.
If he wins only 1 of those 3 Slams, he w/b @ 13 on his 30th BD & will not pass Roger; would finish more in the 14-16 range. So the pt is, those next 3 Slams are huge--they're his window of opportunity.
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...if we're talking about accomplishments strictly, h2h is not an accomplishment, its a stat ...***
I do look at the record book & Nole's moving up or has passed all comers! He actually improved his winning % & inched by Borg! Check it out; fascinating to see it change so rapidly since everything Nole's winning these days seems t/b gravy! He's already done so much before 30 after getting such a late start!
***I think he will end up going down as the GOAT on paper, & he earned it. In my eyes though Fedal will always be slightly better. - not disagreeing w/ that, but that's an entirely different thing from propping up his h2h vs Federer & saying he "owned" him.***
Well it's a much better situation w/ Nole than it is w/ Rafa who truly does own him! We used to make excuses saying most of those victories were on clay, but after Fed lost that Wimbledon final in '08, the so called rivalry was diminished IMO! It's something made up to seem like FEDAL meant something! He had a better tête-à-tête w/ Nole when wins legitimately went back & forth; as late at '12 Wimbledon semi! Since then, he's snuck a Master or 2 on a fast HC!
***He can, but Djokovic severely underachieved at the USO & FO. A player w/ his abilities should have won 4 USOs & 2 FOs at least. Now he's playing catchup.***
Like Rafa, he's usually about "done" after the summer tournaments & needs to refresh for FALL season in Asia & Europe! When you start w/ an AO, IW, Miami, & a clay Masters before the FO, it has to catch up to him! Nole will win another FO & USO in the future; I have little doubt of that!
***Being a yr younger, Nole's still catching up Nadal's win-loss %, the highest being 83.85% in March '14. Now he ='s Nadal's record from May '15: 880 matches played, 731–149 @ 83.07% - In comparison, I think Fed never reached 82% win-loss rec.
ReplyDelete---
Just saw the Nole/Querrey result. I just figured Nole would come back & win all 3 sets today. Now people will understand why it's so hard for anyone to win a CYGS & why Graf (won the OGM the same yr) was the last person to do it - male or female. In 1 fill swoop Querrey has ended Nole's Slam hopes, stopped his run of Slam finals in a row - and streak making QF's & Semis in a row.***
I'm ok w/ it! IMO Nole's been playing just well enough to win! He hasn't necess. played awesome since Qatar where he wiped out Nadal dropping only 3 games! He looked rather emaciated to me! There's fit, then there's running around w/ "skin & bones!" Nole was obviously ticked on being on Court 1 rather than CC & he really blew it by using up his challenges early in that last set! He could have used them on 2 close calls that the linesmen missed! I say he can use the rest; spend X w/ his family & get ready for the summer to close a hole in his resume; Cincy Masters & take another USO! I'm happy enough that he @ least won his FO!
***I think Novak choked, big X. He certainly was due a bad day, & I don't blame him even a little bit if he found things t/b a bit overwhelming. SomeX's they're lucky & eek it out, other X's they lose. It's a pity, b/c he was chasing more history & we don't often get to see this happen - a genuine contender at the GS - so he's t/b admired, I reckon. Pity for his fans too, & the game of tennis. Well done to Querry!
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Haven't yet seen the match but, on the face of it, this doesn't smell like a choke. We tend to start the countdown to the CYGS very soon, but the players know better. As such, having won 4 majors in a row, Novak has already made the 'Grand slam.' The biggest diff. being that the media frenzy is largely absent if it's not done w/i a CY. Novak won RG for the 1st X after winning SW 19, USO, AO in a row...didn't choke there. Btw, Laver didn't have to deal w/ the pressure of the media countdown to a CYGS like it is nowadays.
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Novak's now 4-21 (16%) in bo5 matches in his career where he has dropped the 1st 2 sets. Of course the 4 he won all went the full 5 sets - Anderson '15 WC, Seppi '12 RG, Fed '11 USO, GGL '05 WC. Of the 21 he lost:
2 have been in 5 sets - Murray '12 USO & Melzer in RG '10.
6 have been in 4 sets including this last vs Querrey.
14 have been in 3 sets.
In comparison, Rafa's 3-17 (15%), Roger's 8-32 (20%), & Andy's 9-34 (21%) in the same situation.
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ESPN just ranked Novak ahead of Nadal. It's becoming consensus opinion. His resume owns Nadal's everywhere except Slam count. 60+ wks @ #1, 5 WTFs, Masters lead, h2h lead, more dominant seasons, better across all surfaces, more than makes up for 2 Slams. Nevermind the fact that Novak's resume is still expanding.
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A few notes on Djokovic's dominance:
- Exactly 2 yrs ago today, prior to the current era, Djokovic still had a losing record in Slam finals.
- Exactly 1 yr ago today, Djokovic had still only won more than 1 slam in a year once.
- Prior to Fed turning 30 & Nadal bottoming out due to injuries in '14, Djoker was a combined 6-13 vs them in Slams.
- To this day, of any all-X great, Djoker still holds the highest % of wks at #1 while holding only 1 Slam.
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In '75 or '85, this raw #'s argument mhb quite effective. ...In '16, you simply cannot throw out raw #'s, devoid of any context, and expect them t/b accepted.***
***All-X rec:
ReplyDeleteEvent - Since - Rec. accomp. by Nole - - Players tied
Non-Cal. Yr GS - - SA
Highest HC match win % - (88.4%) - SA
ATP World Tour '70 - 34 Top-tier HC tourneys won - SA
10 Top tier tourneys won in a season - SA
18 Top tier tourney finals in a row - SA
15 str. finals reached in a season ('15) - SA
30+ match wins vs Top 10 opps in a season - SA
Defeated all Top 10 players in a season - SA
Highest overall match win % (83.0%) - SA
ATP World Tour Masters 1000 '70 - 29 titles overall - SA
6 titles won season ('15) - SA
2 yrs winning 5+ titles - SA
4+ titles at 4 diff. tourneys - SA
Highest Masters match win % (82.8%) - SA
ATP Rankings '73 Highest # of ranking pts as World #1 (16,950) - SA
Paris Masters '68 4 men's titles - SA
IW's Masters '74 5 men's titles - SA
China Open '93 6 men's titles - SA
Shanghai Masters '09 3 men's titles - SA
GS tourneys recs - attained - - Open Era since '68
- '08–16 CGS (Winning 4 Majors @ least once) Laver, Agassi, Federer, Nadal
- '15–16 Non-CYGS - - SA
- Holding all 4 Major titles @ once - Laver
- Holding all 4 Major titles on 3 diff. surfaces at once - SA
- 30 cons. GS match wins - SA
- '10–16 3+ cons. finals in all 4 Majors - SA
- '15 All 4 Major finals in a season - Laver & Federer
- '07–08 Youngest to reach the SF's of all 4 Majors (20 yrs, 250 days) - SA
USO - '07–16 12 HC finals overall - Fed
'10–13 7 cons. HC finals - SA
'05–16 Highest HC match win % - 88.4% (114–15) - SA
AO - '11–2012 & '15–16
2 streaks of 3 cons. Major titles - Fed
Wimbledon - '11–15
3+ titles @ each of the 2 Majors
- '16 Winning AO/FO title double in a season - Laver, Wilander & Courier
- AO '12 Longest GS final (by duration) vs Nadal - Nadal
- Djokovic's the 8th man to win the CGS and 1 of 6 players in the Open Era (Connors, Wilander, Agassi, Fed, Nadal) to win GS's on 3 diff. surfaces.
Recs @ each GS tourney - attained in the Open Era of tennis since '68
- AO '08–'16 6 titles overall - SA
- 6 finals overall - SA
- '11–13 3 consecutive titles SA
- 3 cons. finals - Wilander & Lendl
- '11–14 - 25 cons. match wins - SA
- FO '09–16 6 cons. SF's apps - SA
- USO '12 Longest final (by duration) vs Murray - Murray
- Djokovic's the 1st & only player in the Open Era t/b undefeated in 6 AO finals; a perfect 6-0 record.
ATP WTF's recs:
- '12–15 4 cons. titles - SA
- 15 cons. match wins - - SA
- '14 - 76.1% (51–16) games winning % in 1 tourney - SA
- '11 Qualified the earliest – 18 wks, 6 days - SA
- Djokovic's the 4th man w/ Federer, Lendl & Sampras to win the WTF 5 X's
ATP Masters 1000 records - GP Super Series began in '70
ATP Masters Series was introduced in '90
IW's '08–16 5 titles overall - SA
'07–16 6 finals overall - SAA
'14–2016 3 cons. titles - Federer
Miami Open '07–16 - 6 titles overall - Agassi
'14–16 - 3 cons. titles - Agassi
Shanghai - '12–15 - 3 titles overall - SA
'12–15 - 3 finals overall - Murray
'12–13 - 2 cons. titles - Murray
Paris - '09–15 - 4 titles overall SA
'13–15 - 3 cons. titles - SA
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'16 Highest # of pts accrued in ATP rankings as World #1 (16,950) - SA
'11–13 3 cons. yrs winning 20+ matches vs. Top 10 opps - SA
'11 5 cons. match wins vs World #1 player in finals (Nadal) - SA
'15 Most prize money won in a season ($21,646,145) - SA
'16 All-X prize $$ leader ($102,026,620) - SA
'09–15 - 6 - China Open titles - SA
'12–15 - 4 cons. China Open titles SA***
***Sampras declared Djokovic' '11 season as the best he has ever seen, calling it "1 of the best achievements in all of sports." Becker called Djokovic's season "1 of the very best yrs in tennis of all X", adding that it "may not be the best statistically, but he's beaten Fed, he's beaten Nadal, he's beaten everybody that came around to challenge him in the biggest tourneys in the world." Nadal, who lost to Djokovic in 6 finals on 3 diff. surfaces, described Djokovic's performances as "probably the highest level of tennis that I ever saw." He was named '11 ITF World Champ. He also received the Golden Bagel Award by winning 13 sets w/ the result of 6–0.
ReplyDelete---
...At the '15 USO, Djokovic reached the final for the 6th X in his career, achieving the feat of reaching all 4 grand slam finals. In the final of the tournament, he faced Federer once again, defeating him in 4 sets to win his 3rd GS title of the year, his 2nd title at Flushing Meadows, and his 10th career GS singles title, becoming the 5th man in the Open Era to win 10+ GS singles titles, as well as only the 3rd man to reach all 4 Major finals in a CY.
He returned to Beijing in Oct., winning the title for the 6th X, defeating Nadal in str. sets in the final to bring his overall record @ the tourney to 29–0. Djokovic then reached the final of the Paris Masters, where he defeated Murray in str. sets, taking his 4th title there and a record 6 ATP Masters 1000 in 1 year. After losing to Fed in the RR stage of the '15 ATP WTF's he took on the 3rd seed again in the final. He beat Federer in str. sets winning his 5th YEC title and he became the 1st player to win 4 cons. finals tournaments.
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...Djokovic defeated Andy Murray in the final of the '16 FO in 4 sets, making him the reigning champ of all 4 majors, a historic feat the media dubbed the "Nole Slam." W/ his FO triumph, Djokovic became the 8th player in history (& the 2nd oldest) to achieve a CGS, the 3rd player in history to hold all 4 GS titles at the same X, & the 1st player to win $100 M in prize $$.
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Following his tremendous success in the '11 season, Djokovic began to feature on all-X greatest lists. In late '11, Laver chose Djokovic as #6 in his top 10 male players of the Open Era. ...In April '15, Henman offered another comment on Djokovic's standing among the all-X greats, saying "it's only a matter of X before he's considered alongside Federer & Nadal as 1 of the GOATs." McEnroe put Djokovic in all-X top 5... "My top 4 are Laver, Sampras, Roger & Nadal, but Novak's @ #5 & rising."
Nick B...Over all, almost every player has a downfall; to me he doesn’t have one. He’s perhaps the best put-together player that I’ve seen over 60 years.” Tennis pundits have classified many of Djokovic's matches as some of the greatest contests ever, w/ the '12 AO final being considered the greatest match ever seen. Some longX analysts claim that the Djokovic-Nadal rivalry ranks as the best rivalry in tennis history primarily b/c of the quality of matches they produce.
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What's a real ATG, what's true GOATness, what is the legitimate meaning of H2H? And so it goes.***
A real ATG overachieves all expectations like Borg winning 5 str. Wimbledons! True Goat-ness has Federer having a nice run in 2 of the biggest majors & owning many records in the book! H2H has always been that; regardless of surface! We tried to give Roger cover for yrs giving him dispensation for most of his losses to Rafa being on clay! The true record shows it really didn't matter w/ him taking Roger on grass in '08, HC at '09 AO, and many Masters on all surfaces; indoor & out! Nole's passed them both; took X, but he caught up there & in the record book!
***The strategy that Fed used to break Sampras record is identical to what Novak is doing to break Fed. ...if Fed knew 17 was an easily achievable target perhaps he would have focused on Wimb alone from '10. Perhaps he would have skipped or tanked Masters' in the past, starting from '10. Novak knows he needs to get just 18.
ReplyDelete1st of all, 17 was not an easily achievable target, but if Fed thought it was why would he focus just on 1 major? Your point about skipping Masters is basically implying that after winning 16 GS titles Federer didn't try to win more b/c he didn't know how many he can win, which is BS. Federer tried to win another major and he would've skipped or tanked Masters if he thought it would help.
Djokovic is going to try and win every Slam, just like Federer did when he didn't suck on clay. If Novak at some point decides that skipping Masters will help him to win a major, he'll do it. If he decides that, he needs to change his racket, he'll change it. ...For me Fed's the greatest ever and I don't think Djokovic is a better player than Roger.
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Djokovic has been a constant presence in the deciding stages of the USO since '07, either winning or losing to the winner except in '09 & '14 when he lost to the losing finalist.
Djovak vs Mandy at the USO:
'07 - Djovak barely beats Stepanek, but then rolls to the finals for a tight 3-set loss to Fed; Mandy loses to Lee in 3R
'08 - Djovak keeps dropping sets (and is stretched to 5 by Robredo), but gets thro & puts a decent display in the SF vs Fed, losing in 4; Mandy nearly loses to Melzer, outlasting him in 5, then beats Delpo & Nadal in good matches, but's rolled over by Fed in the final
'09 - Djovak loses to Fed in the SF again in tight 3; Mandy is crushed by Cilic
'10 - Djovak close to getting beat Troicki in the 1st Rd, but then rolls to the SF, saves MPs vs Fed & has a respectable 4 set loss to peak Nadal in the final; Mandy loses to Wawrinka in 3R
'11 - peak Djovak saves MP vs Fed again & beats Nadal convincingly in the final, whereas Mandy is beaten Nadal in a similar fashion in the SF (also is 0-2 down vs Haase, wtf?)
'12 - Djovak fails to Master the wind and can't dig himself out of a 0-2 hole, credit to Mandy for winning this
'13 - Djovak beats Wawa in 5 & then collapses in the 4th vs Nadal; Mandy is Wawrinka's previous op. & takes a beat down
'14 - Djovak beats Mandy in 4 in the QF & then loses the SF to Nishikori
'15 - Djovak beats Fed in the final; Mandy is 0-2 down vs Mannarino & loses to Anderson in 4R in 4
Djovak > Mandy in all yrs except 2008 (Djovak=Mandy) & '12 (Mandy def. Djovak) - Obvious conclusion is obvious.
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1 RG vs 1 RG
0 Rome + MC titles vs 6 Rome + MC titles
2 wins vs King of Clay vs 7 wins vs King of Clay
In before "if it weren't for peak Nadal, Fed would have 10 RG titles... even though he lost to broken hip Kuerten in his peak"
6 clay Masters vs 8 clay Masters
Not a big diff. Djokovic's poised to add more though. The 2 are generally in the same league, anyway.
It is not important what your opp. is called, only what game he plays.
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If Djokovic ends up, say, w/ 2 RGs & 10 clay Masters, he'll be obviously ahead, but still in the same league overall, b/c finals also matter. 2 RG W out of 2 finals is 2x > than 1 RG W out of 1 final, but 2 RG W out of 6 finals isn't 2x > than 1 RG W out of 6 finals. Neither of them is in the list of >est claycourters - that would require 3 RG titles.
(The same way Djokovic is ahead of Murray on grass, but in the same league, given Murray's OG on grass - directly beating Djokovic - which halves the gap set by a diff. of one Wimby title, & 3 vs 2.5 isn't that big a differential.)***
...I was quite satisfied w/ Nole finally taking his 1st FO, so I ceded Wimbledon to Andy! ...not wanting t/b bothered w/ the CYGS pressure along w/ Olympic hopes!
ReplyDelete***I think Djokovic feels the FO is a bit diluted as he didn't beat Nadal. That I think caused the big let down @ Wimbledon. He knows a lot of people have said Fed didn't get past Nadal to get the FO, so as satisfying as it is to get the monkey off the back, given what Nadal achieved at the FO, it w/b a diff. level of win to beat him. I think it's human nature. Let's say u and me were massive rivals. U were a clay court Goat & had beat me 6 X's @ the FO. Then a decade earlier I'd made the statement "I can beat u as u r beatable. ...Lay a few demons to rest."
And as for Murray, I agree w/ your analysis. The only match he lost at a major he should have won when he wasn't injured was AO '12. That wasn't passiveness that lost it. It was a tech. deficiency on the BH whereby he can't hit thru the ball like Djokovic. Nadal hits across it, always has. It's why so often when he tries to hit the BH down the line flat it goes wide. Djokovic should have more majors, but he has often been too passive; the most glaring was FO '15 vs Wawrinka.
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The Djokovic - Murray H2H:
As it stands Djoker leads this H2H 24-10.
This now looks like the Fedal matchup in terms of dominance.
But just like clay played a large part in that rivalry, the Nolandy matchup is not as one-sided as it seems.
We immediately take away Novak's 1st 4 victories b/c he developed into a proper pro before Andy.
The '08 USO swing was Murray's breakthrough to a slam-challenger level, so we start the H2H there.
Andy takes a 3-0 lead until Nole gets his 1st win at the '11 AO.
They trade 3 more victories apiece until Andy's breakthru @ the '12 USO, & Slamray leads 7-4.
Novak wins the Shanghai final, but we give that to Andy after all the MPs lost. 8-4.
Djoker gets a WTF win for 8-5.
Andy gets distracted by a feather in the '13 AO final so we void that match. Andy's historic Wimbledon triumph that summer counts as 2 wins so the H2H goes to 10-5.
Neither of Djoker's 4 '14 wins vs Backray should count. So it becomes 10-6 after the '15 AO final. Andy deserved that loss after falling for the possum antics.
Djoker wins the US HC Spring matches. 10-8.
The '15 FO SF was Andy's for the taking, but the lack of floodlights gave Djoker a lifeline. Void match.
Murray wins in Montreal for 11-8.
Djoker dominates the end of year & the start of '16 to jump to a 12-11 lead.
Andy pulls even in Rome, but Novak leads the H2H again after his FO 13-12.
After Novak losing to Querrey at Wimbledon, it's clear he would have lost to Grassray in the final.
So as of now, the REAL H2H btw these 2 champions is 13-13.
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Federer out of Rio and according to his FB entry, he's possibly done for the season.***
Few are that shocked! This isn't blowing up 1/2 as much as I thought! It wasn't like he was going to take anything!
***Federer has the records for most wks as #1, most wks in the top 2, & most wks in the top 3. He has the records for most cons. wks as #1 & most cons. wks in the top 2, but in '13 he fell out of the top 3 someway short of Connors' & Lendl's totals. He was chasing Connors down for most wks in the top 4 & most wks in the top 5. Currently, Connors leads 669-648 for wks in the top 4 & 705-675 for wks in the top 5.
He's also on the heels of Agassi for 2nd-most wks in the top 10. Agassi currently leads 747-730, w/ Connors ahead on 817. It's possible - if unlikely - that Federer w/b in the top 10 for the next 17 wks & so = Agassi. But most likely he won't get that record, either. Will he be able to regain such a high ranking in '17?***
***Novak's much more accomplished than Connors.... Novak left Connors in the dark a long X ago...***
ReplyDeleteThe FO alone sets them apart! Connors had a storied career, but was made more significant by his rivals; Nastase, Borg, McEnroe, & Lendl! Even w/ all his winning, his weaknesses were glaring & by hanging on for so many yrs after his prime, he ended up hurting his legacy & #'s in general! Borg immortalized himself by leaving early! No 1 will bring up Connors' name next yr or in the next millennium! Like Rafa, most of his success was @ 1 place & rarely was able to defend majors; esp. outside of NY!
***Watch Novak lose the next 2 Slams, then defend Roland Garros. :D ***
It wouldn't bother me; just like him blowing AO & FO in '14, but salvaging his season & the #1 ranking by taking his 2nd Wimbledon!
***Djokovic will win his last Slam at the '17 AO - Here's why:
Federer - 1st Slam - '03 Wimbledon. Last Slam - '12 Wimbledon. Exactly 9 ys. 1st & last Slam at his fave Slam.
Nadal - 1st Slam '05 FO. Last Slam '14 FO. Exactly 9 yrs. 1st and last Slam at his fave Slam.
Djokovic - 1st Slam '08 AO. Last Slam '17 AO. Exactly 9 yrs. 1st & last Slam at his fave Slam. It would all make sense.***
True enough, but Nole's a trailblazer who might turn history on it's head; esp. w/ his fortitute overcoming the 2 pre-eminent GOATs in Fedal!
***Interesting stat, but you have to add in the fact that Nole had a 3 yr period btw '08-11 where he didn't win a Slam. Nadal won Slams in 10 diff. yrs, Fed in 9 diff. yrs & Djokovic is in his 7th yr.***
Like Agassi, Nole might continue winning the AO until he's 33! Who has started the season this well yr after yr winning the AO, then the 1st 2 Masters 1000s automatically! Last season he took the 1st 3 for a new record, and there's no reason it couldn't continue for the next several yrs!
***Yeah, Novak's a serious threat to 2 of Feds most important records, Slams & wks @ #1. There's still a lot of work t/b done though, & he has to stay fit & free of injuries.
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Both Nole & Fed have very strong resumes, given that they were stopped by Rafa so many X's. Federer has more Slam & Masters 1000 finals. If he had won more vs a peak Nadal, then he w/b ahead in both title tiers. ...Novak has a couple more Masters 1000s. It basically comes down to each person's subjective opinion of how good Federer & Djokovic were in their primes on clay & which had to deal w/ a stronger version of Nadal. Personally, I'd give a slight edge to Federer, but I think both deserve a lot of recognition. Glad they both finally won the FO after so much effort.
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B/c winning 8 Slams in an era w/ dozens of Slam contenders, drastic differences btw the surfaces, players who have trained to specialize in those diff. surfaces, & a player talent pool culled from the largest group in history in an era when tennis was the #1 junior sport worldwide, is a lot more impressive than winning 12 in an era w/ 3 Slam contenders, no diff. among surfaces, & a talent pool of players so barren that 30+ yo's are hanging on long enough to get into the top 20 by attrition.
It becomes more impressive when you realize that there were really only 3 Slams per year, since nobody counted (or played) AO & that Connors missed out on numerous Slams he'd have been the prohibitive fave to win during his prime, thru no fault of his own. Novak's 6 extra AO titles don't make up for all that. Connors isn't just > Novak. He's at least >>> Novak.***
***Djokovic All-X tournament records:
ReplyDeleteTournament - - Since - - Record accomplished - - - - Players matched
ATP Rankings - '73 - Highest # of ranking pts as World #1 (16,950) SA
Grand Slams - 1877 - Holding all 4 Majors - 3 diff. surfaces @ once SA
Grand Slams - 1877 - Non-Cal. Year Grand Slams - - - - Stands alone
Grand Slams - 1877 - 88.4% (114–15) - HC match winning % - - SA
ATP World Tour '70 - Holding all 4 Grand Slams & YEC @ once SA
ATP World Tour '70 - 34 Top tier HC tourneys won (Big Titles) - SA
ATP World Tour '70 - 10 Top tier tourneys won in a season ('15) - SA
ATP World Tour '70 - 18 Top tier tourney finals in a row - SA
ATP World Tour '70 - 15 str. finals reached in a season ('15) SA
ATP Mas's 1000 '70 - 30 titles overall - - - - - Stands alone
ATP Mas's 1000 '70 - 22 HC titles overall - - - - Stands alone
ATP Mas's 1000 '70 - 6 titles won in a single season ('15) - SA
ATP Mas's 1000 '70 - 1+ titles @ 8 diff. tournaments - - - SA
ATP Mas's 1000 '70 - 82.8% (288–60) career match winning % - SA
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Big 4 = 100 Masters? - Yes, even if Fed & Rafa are finished, Djokovic & Murray will win 6 more:
Djokovic 30
Nadal 28
Federer 24
Murray 12
The Emperor @ 30 & still going strong. The others? Well, let's just say perhaps a few more for Murray, but that's it!
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I mean pretty obvious some don't know jack about tennis more than 10-15 yrs ago & don't even try to pretend they do nor do they make an effort to learn. I think most here can agree that Agassi is a superior baseliner to Murray on HC's. Yet in the '94 YEC semi: Sampras won 42.4% of pts longer than 7 strokes, but also 56% of pts lasting longer than 10 strokes. In the '95 AO final he won 47% of pts 7 strokes or longer & 53% of pts lasting longer than 10 strokes. This is absolute peak Agassi vs avg Sampras on a slow HC. '95 USO final: Sampras won 53% of pts lasting longer than 7 strokes.
This is even better:
Sampras vs Agassi in '01 @ Miami: Sampras won 4 of 6 pts lasting 7-9 strokes & lost the only pt lasting 10 or longer. Close to peak Agassi vs post prime Sampras @ the frickin Miami hellhole. '02 USO final, Sampras won 61% of pts lasting longer than 7 strokes.
Bonus:
'96 USO final Sampras won 61% of 7 strokes or longer rallies. Chang was playing well in this match & he's a solid baseliner.
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list for cons. yrs reaching @ least a final, down to 10:
19 Connors ['71-89]
17 Federer [2000-16]
16 Lendl ['79-94]
15 Orantes ['69-83]
14 McEnroe ['78-91], Moya ['95-08]
13 Edberg ['84-96], Noah ['78-90], Sampras ['90-02], Ferrero ['99-11], Nalbandian ['01-13], Nadal ['04-16]
12 Becker ['85-96], Vilas ['72-83], Gomez ['80-91], Smith ['69-80], Roddick '01-12], Berdych ['04-15], Murray ['05-16], Monfils ['05-16]
11 Chang ['88-98], Nastase ['69-79], Gottfried ['73-83], Gerulaitis ['74-84], Tanner ['72-82], Muster ['88-98], Gilbert ['84-94], Ramirez ['73-83], Ferrer ['05-15], Djokovic ['06-16]
10 Ivanisevic ['89-98], Hewitt ['98-07], Agassi ['87-96], Wilander ['81-90], Krajicek ['91-00], Kafelnikov ['94-03], Rosewall ['68*-77], Simon ['06-15], Monaco ['07-16]
...and here's the list for cons. yrs winning at least a title, down to 8:
15 Federer [01-15]
14 Lendl ['80-93]
13 Connors ['72-84], Nadal ['04-16]
12 Edberg ['84-95], Becker ['85-96], Roddick ['01-12]
11 Sampras ['90-00], Chang ['88-98], Vilas ['73-83], Gottfried ['73-83], Djokovic ['06-16], Murray ['06-16]
10 Nastase ['69-78], Hewitt ['98-07], Agassi(1/2) ['87-96]
9 Ivanisevic ['90-98], McEnroe ['78-86], Krajicek ['91-99], Kafelnikov ['94-02], Dibbs ['73-81], Davydenko ['03-11]
8 Agassi(2/2) ['98-05], Laver ['68*-75], Newcombe ['68*-75], Borg ['74-81], ...***
Djokovic @ this X so reminds me of the era of Lendl where he couldn't catch a cold w/ the likes of Borg, Connors, & McEnroe in the headlines! He performed better, was beating all comers, had won 3 USO's in a row, and all they could talk about was his not having a Wimbledon on his resume!
ReplyDelete***The dude is dominating a super weak era playing the most boring style ever and wants us to apprec. him j/b he's winning?
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Federer 17 majors + 6 WTFs + 24 Masters = 47 "Big" titles (tourneys w/ most top players playing).
- Djokovic 12 Majors + 5 WTFs + 30 Masters = 47 "Big" titles.
Whereas Federer w/b pushing it to reach 50 ('11 thru '16, 2/3/0/2/1/0), Novak can probably reach 60 ('11 thru '16, 8/5/5/6/10/6+).***
As long as we're not trying to compare them; Roger significantly older! IMO, it's ridiculous to compare w/ Nadal! Again it w/b like comparing apples & oranges! We're desperate to have a true rivalry, but the only 1 there is right now is w/ Nole and Andy; #1 & #2, born w/i a wk of 1 another, had the same comp. in Fedal! Rafa has a lot more mileage on him, so I can't even group him w/ Murkovic! When he started dropping clay matches to Murray, we all had t/b in agreement he's "past it!"
***Fed wasn't close to being in his prime in '11, but Nadal most certainly was & he had the finals to show for it. He beat more top 10 players in '11 than '10, was better vs the field (69-9 v 69-10 the year before vs players other than Djokovic) and had tougher draws en route to reaching the slam finals that he did, beating Fed.
...Nadal might not have been as great in '11 as he was the year prior, but Hell, he wasn't THAT far off. He made more finals and objectively performed better vs the rest of the field. Also, once Djokovic hit his stride it was clear that he was a better player than Peakdal could hope t/b on HC's or indoors, which comprises 60+% of the tour, and was at least a formidable enough foe on grass to warrant a comparison btw the 2. ...that Djokovic @ his best could overtake a peak Nadal in the rankings, or @ the very least muster up enough fight to make it photo finish.
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If Nole wins OSG this year, he will join Agassi in the elusive "Career Super Slam" club, edging ahead Nadal (who only has a Career GS, since he does not have WTF) & Federer (who only has a CGS, since he doesn't have OSG). This Olympics matters a lot more to Djokovic's legacy than people thought.
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Is there a name for winning all 4 GS, 9 Masters, WTF, OG, DC in a career? The PhD of tennis? Pure Holy Dominance? Does a player then turn his attention to completing his ATP 500 collection? - Career GOAT Slam.
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The GS is the historically recognized & accepted marker of a GOAT player. The very reason the tennis world began this year wondering if Djokovic might reach a level no male player has reached in 47 yrs--the GOAT-defining achievement of the Grand Slam. It's the same reason the entire sports world was hanging on every moment in the '15 USO as Serena was trying to win the GS. We know you would love to erase the >est tennis achievement to protect / clean up Fed's standing, but that's not going to work now, or ever. No Grand Slam = no GOAT player.
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You're just making this up. No one agrees w/ you that a GS is a 'must' t/b GOAT, or any single criteria is the be-all & end-all. The most objective method to evaluate the player's all X greatness are based on the following essential criteria:
* # of Major Titles won
* Overall performance @ GS Events
* Player Ranking
* Performance @ ATP/WTA events
* Performance (Win/loss record) at Davis & Fed Cup events
* Records held or broken
* Intangibles (contribution to tennis)***
***Hardest slam draws conquered?***
ReplyDelete...OTTH '90 USO where Sampras had to overcome Lendl, McEnroe, & Agassi to take his 1st major comes to mind! As a 19 yo, he chb in awe of both Lendl & McEnroe, but, blew them off the court w/ his serve! ...Sampras went ahead & annihilated his childhood rival in strs! Funny, I thought after so many other failures in major finals, he could at least rise to the occasion vs a known quantity! I went out and played myself so sure he would win; what a shock to find Pete destroyed him in about an hour/half!
***If Novak is given an option btw winning Cincy + OG or just the USO, which 1 would he choose?
Olympics + Cinci w/o a shadow of a doubt. Only a CYGS w/b bigger, but that ship has sailed for this yr.
The Olympics are the real major in all sports, and it’s every 4 yrs. No way I would prefer a so-called “major” which is 16 X's as often & where I could say to myself after every loss: “Nevermind, in a few months there's another chance anyway.”
As I said in another post: In 100 yrs, if anyone of today’s players w/ just 1 big title w/b mentioned by statisticians, it won’t be Del Potro or Cilic, but Massu. That’s b/c the Olympics are so unique in forcing interest to the whole world of sports fans. And nobody will care if in the then ancient history guys like Laver weren’t able to play there. Look, even today only a few historians care about the situation before the Open Era and are able to explain why Emerson isn’t > than Laver despite having 1 more of today’s majors.
So imagine how many more important will the Gold medal be for a player like Djokovic who already has 2 USO anyway? Cinci looks like the icing on the cake, but it’s also a huge achievement itself. Djokovic would not only complete his career Masters set, but hold all 9 big annual HC titles simultaneously (USO, Shanghai, Paris, WTF, AO, IW, Miami, Canada, Cinci) & would have won all 15 big singles titles (Slams, WTF, Masters, Olympics) during a span of only 17 months since MC '15.
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Cinci, which w/b played after the OG, is the only big title he's missing - which is why he's going to Rio hugely motivated. 8 yrs ago Djokovic won bronze in Beijing, in London in '12 he was 1 of the faves, but lost in the SF, as well as the 3rd place match. Having now spent 210 wks as a world #1 & w/ the win in Toronto, Djokovic now has just under 6000 pt lead over 2nd placed Murray in the rankings, while his lead in the Race to London's now 1815 pts.
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Can Novak complete his collection of the 16 biggest trophies in tennis in the year '16? And even bigger, if he wins the Olympics & Cincy this yr, he whd all that in '15 & '16 alone (apart from DC, but that’s of course a team comp). Just imagine a 2-yr-ranking-system!
AO: '15, '16
IW: '15, '16
Miami: '15, '16
MC: '15
Madrid: '16
Rome: '15
FO: '16
Wimbl: '15
Canada: '16
(OG's: '16 ?)
(Cinci: '16 ?)
(USO: '15, ?)
(Shanghai: '15, ?)
(Paris: '15, ?)
(WTF's: '15, ?)
I’m a Federer fan, but considering he's out now until '17, I would have preferred Djokovic winning Wimbledon b/c him chasing the Golden Slam whb the only thing which could make the rest of the season really interesting. However, what Djokovic achieves these days is admirable.***
A 2 yr. ranking was proposed by Nadal if you can believe it! He was running out of steam and about to lose his #1 ranking to Nole the 1st X & while VP of the ATP, he was pushing for it! Roger was the President @ the X & put the kibosh on it; poor thing! Rafa isn't as innocent & slow as we think; always maneuvering & "running game" on all of us & his fellow competitors!
***In relation to slams, Masters 1000's are meaningless IMO. - I disagree. Players who win these events often go on to win Slams (not always, but more often than not). They're an important warm-up for many Slam events. ...The tour would not survive if it just consisted of the 4 Slams.
ReplyDelete---
...Now, if Novak turns up & routines everyone @ the USO, barring the odd match that he's known to throw in every slam, then ultimately while the boat had been rocked, it still stayed on course. Novak ends the yr the world #1, 13 slams, & majority of the people will look at W & Olympics as a blip. - - A slam is a slam is a slam.***
It is NOW due to most all top players attending each season! In the past, there were some inferior draws giving us winners like Kriek, Johansson, & Gerulaitus @ the Aussie Open! If not for Borg, the FO would have lost a lot of luster back in the 70's since most top players knew to skip the slow red clay of RG! Hard to call this a weak era w/ 3 of the all X GREATS vying for all available slams & Masters 1000's! The comp. isn't that bad, actually pushing the elites, they just can't seem to finish the deal most of the X; hence the "Big 4" holding most of the top tourneys creating records unlikely to beat anyX soon!
***...you need to go out & play some actual tennis. ...I've been hit in the face w/ overheads @ net before, & it's just an expected part of the sport.***
I played & taught for 30 yrs buddy! It's not a part of the game! W/ all the single, doubles, & MD I can count on 1 hand even getting nicked by the ball! ...In a doubles match, I was at the net & the returner tried nailing the ball down the line! I stabbed at it; barely cleared & w/ all the backspin began to come back my way! I stood there & dared the guy to reach over & take his legitimate swing @ the ball! It was the final & the whole club was watching! Being a 19 y.o. kid, he would have looked the worst coming after me even though legal! A pt isn't worth losing civility! I didn't go after women like some other guys either when playing MxD's; once w/ my mom! It was usually to their detriment to target me b/c I could lose it & retaliate! That did happen w/ some tough guy deciding he had to nail my mother at the net! "It was on" & we had a very entertaining match w/ her just getting out of the way & allowing me to take over the court! The only game the guy won was serving bombs! He brought that on himself! Nadal hitting Nole may have triggered something that brought him to this level! That's why it isn't worth it to me to hit people when I can avoid it!
***What do you mean "played?" I've been watching some college doubles & hanging in no-mans land isn't so bad when playing thugs. The doubles game has evolved while the singles has devolved, from a strat POV. A lefty & righty standing close in doubles to cover both sides w/ FH's, then wide on other side, etc.***
I played for HS team, local tourneys, club chps; winning in all disciplines! It was my life from 14 on w/ school getting short-shrift b/c I played everyday; during the summer from 9 am into the night! I began to help a tennis teacher after 3 yrs of play & branched out on my own after college! I watched all TV matches & learned a lot; more so from the women who were more strategic w/ their tactics! After all these yrs, & w/ all the GOAT's seeming t/b of this gen., my era will always have paved the way w/ our ATG's of the X; Court, King, Goolagong, Navratilova, Evert, Borg, Laver, McEnroe, Connors, Vilas, Nastase, & Rosewall!
***Well that teaches me to jump to conclusions. Anyway, I maintain that Djokovic should not have reacted in that way. Getting hit at net is an expected part of it, even if you aren't meant to consciously aim for the person at net.***
Even if Nole wins 4 of the next 6 Slams which will put him @ 16 Slams. Fed played absolutely fantastic tennis for a 33-34 yo in '14-15 & he still lost.
ReplyDelete---
You do notice Nole's the youngest player in the current top 5 right? Does Nole look like he'll physically break down before anybody else in the top 5?
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I said Djokovic will win 2-3 more Slams. He could win the USO, 1 more next yr & 1 more later on. He won't keep dominating the game for the next 2-3 yrs cause that's exactly what's required of him if he wants to break Fed's record.
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Should he suffer a Nadal like breakdown as far as his body goes, then yes he prob. won't break the record, but I believe he's got a few yrs of dominance left so it w/b hard, but w/i reach. Right now, he looks distracted & not too inspired since the FO. However I expect him to shake this off pretty soon. He's a champion after all.
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I agree, my 2 cents:
1) ...Djokovic needs his legs more. I said it somewhere else, but I expect Djokovic to go the Nadal route rather than Fed's. The min. he loses his physical advantage over the tour he'll be pretty much done winning Slams on a reg. basis.
2) I've given up on the new gens; these guys are completely useless. A couple of them could still surprise me like Kyrgios, Zverev, Fritz, etc., but before they reach a level when they can beat Nole, you need to wait at least 2 more yrs.
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I guess another YE #1 title is a lot closer now. Anybody do the math?***
Supposedly Andy didn't have much to defend, but Nole usually gets his 2nd wind to take Beijing, Shanghai, & Paris! Murray probably needs to win & for Nole to go out early defending so many chps before the YEC!
***Djokovic's ahead by 1575 pts in the race. If Novak wins USO, he'll have a lead of 2855. Plus, Djokovic plays China Open every yr whereas Murray won't play anything as he'll be busy w/ DC. So, it'll be 5th YE #1 & a total of 230 wks by YE!***
Something needs t/b done w/ this system IMO! Nole's done < than in '14 so far w/ 2 majors, 4 or 5 Masters 1000; how is this even close?
***OK I think everybody realizes how identical Federer's & Djokovic's career are. They are both very dominant @ their peak, extremely consistent & playing well on all surfaces. They have a very balanced game w/ strong weapons. To Fed it's his FH & to Djokovic it's his BH.
...And I'm so surprised about how similar their career are. I mean my surprise was pushed to another level. Look at the facts:
- They both won their respectively maiden slam at 20-21 & WTF's @ the very same yr & those are their best slam respectively too. Fed won his 1st Wimbledon in '03 when he was 21 yo & Djokovic won his 1st AO in '08 @ 20 yo.
- They are both very successful @ WTF's and both failed to win OGM in singles. This yr Federer was absent & Djokovic @ his very peak lost @ 1st Rd.
- Federer domination lasted from '04-09 w/ bonus slams in '10 AO & '12 Wimbledon. His domination yrs was separated by Nadal' '08 - Nadal won 2 slams that yr, but @ that duration he was still the best player overall. It was 6 yrs. Djokovic domination started from '11 & now it's '16. It was 6 yrs. His domination was separated by Nadal's '13 - Nadal won 2 slams that yr too.
- I predict that Djokovic will go downhill from next yr & he'll not break Fed's slam records. 15 is his max #.
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In the famous '12 AO final, Djokovic defeated Nadal in a match that lasted 5 h & 53 mins. Now he has reached the USO SF w/ 2 complete wins, 2 retirements & 1 WD - altogether 6 hrs & 24 mins on court. The world #1 said that he felt bad for his 3 rivals who had to retire. OTOH, Novak says that everything's going according to the scenario he was hoping for b/c he managed to recover from injuries. - ...given how little X he's spent on court, I'm kinda hoping that Gael puts up a good fight.***
***Since '11, Djokovic's won:
ReplyDeleteAus. Open. 5/6. Wawrinka was the sole other winner. Djokovic probability next yr. is 5/6
French Open. Won 1 out of 6, but 4 were won by Nadal. W/O Nadal, he got 1 out of 2. Djokovic probability next yr. 1/2
Wimbledin. Won 3/6. Won 2/4 since Federer won. Probability w/o or w/ Fed is 1/2
US Open. Won 2 in last yr. Even giving this yr Open to him, he'll have 3/6. His probability next yr. 1/2
Total probability of CYGS next yr. is 5/6*1/2*1/2*1/2 = 5/48 = 10%
Actual odds w/b even <.. These s/b maximum odds I can think off***
Stan's always capable of beating anyone, hitting screaming winners that players don't even move to get back, but w/ this dream draw & X to heal, Nole's gotta suck it up & win this USO in 4! He's capable of completing another matching record of 3 Majors in a season; Roger at 3 fantastic seasons w/ added sweetener of completing a Nole-Slam & CGS!
***Djokovic - 1 match away from 3 GS's in a yr for 3rd X - It is quite remarkable to note that from '68 to '03, a span of 36 yrs, on 3 occasions did a man win 3 or more Majors in 1 cal. yr. Now Djokovic's 1 match away from making it the 7th X in the last 13 yrs. It makes me a fan of Sampras wonder how he never had the motivation, talent, luck, etc. to achieve this in his career.
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It's laughable how easy this has been for Novak if he wins this USO. On the contrary, if he loses, he s/b pretty ashamed & rightly gutted as draws don't get any easier than this, ever. Was RG more dificult for him to win? I don't think so, never better op, it was the perfect X. - He at least had to play all his matches there. This has been a joke. Not his fault btw that his opps are all retiring, but still a joke all the same.***
All you can do is play when & who's in front of you! We've been more fortunate than past eras when upsets came a lot more frequently; remember McEnroe's '83 Wimbledon final over NZ's, Chris Lewis? At least in this era's upsets, they bear more fruit like Del Po over Federer in '09's USO! Nothing more sorry than Sampras winning X majors over Philippoussis, Martin, or Pioline! Nole's never had it that easy; esp. w/ Stan already having a victory over him on clay last season in Paris!
***It's not outrageous to call Murray the (current) best player in the world given the summer the 2 of them have had. Not saying I agree, just saying I can understand where he's coming from. - Maybe, but it takes a little more to actually dethrone the KING! The same happened on the ladies' side of things 30 yrs ago! Steffi Graf was winning everything in sight, beat the top (Martina & Chris), but she didn't reach #1 ranking until the summer! Martina had been a finalist everywhere, but lost again & again until Wimbledon of '87! Steffi's father was enraged & threaten to take her off the tour & start his own! It was insane, but that's how it is; even w/ how they've modified the rankings! It still takes X to finally take over! Murray lost his chance w/ 1 match he probably should have won! People were already anointing him the next #1! Nole'll hold onto it for another yr. it seems!***
Djokovic has played 894 matches. ...I see 2 maybe 3 majors more for Novak.***
ReplyDelete...It was such a weight off of him, he's almost feeling like he's done as much as he can do! I keep saying he hasn't been @ the height of his powers since annihilating Rafa @ Qatar event!
***Nole hinted @ being mentally off after that huge FO win..., but navigating thru the whole season & trying to peak & play his best 4 X's a yr for the duration of majors, that's a big challenge for anybody.***
The weight of the world fell off Nole's shoulders! He hasn't been the same since winning FO, even w/ 2 Masters' wins & a USO finale! We can only hope he'll get his usual recharge by next month so he can finish strong for last few big titles; 2 Masters, Beijing, & YEC!
***The slams are where history's written. Slam meetings btw the 3 biggest icons of modern tennis: Nadal, Djokovic & Federer.
Djokovic leads Federer 9-6
'16 AO - SF - Djokovic 6-1 6-2 3-6 6-3
'15 US - F - Djokovic 6-4 5-7 6-4 6-4
'15 WB - F - Djokovic 7-6(1) 6-7(10) 6-4 6-3
'14 WB - F - Djokovic 6-7(7) 6-4 7-6(4) 5-7 6-4
'12 WB - SF - Federer 6-3 3-6 6-4 6-3
'12 FO - SF - Djokovic 6-4 7-5 6-3
'11 UO - SF - Djokovic 6-7(7) 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
'11 FO - SF - Federer 7-6(5) 6-3 3-6 7-6(5)
'11 AO - SF - Djokovic 7-6(3) 7-5 6-4
'10 US - SF - Djokovic 5-7 6-1 5-7 6-2 7-5
'09 US - SF - Federer 7-6(3) 7-5 7-5
'08 US - SF - Federer 6-3 5-7 7-5 6-2
'08 AO - SF - Djokovic 7-5 6-3 7-6(5)
'07 UO - F - Federer 7-6(4) 7-6(2) 6-4
'07 AO - R16 - Federer 6-2 7-5 6-3
The Djokovic/Fed rivalry's the closest... Altho some may argue that Fed isn't in his prime anymore & therefore losing >, it becomes a lit'l irrelevant when you realize that even during his prime & Djokovic not being a dominant champion yet, Djokovic still managed to beat Federer from X to X. In fact Fed has never been able to beat Djokovic more than 2 X's in a row in slams; = when Fed was in his prime.
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I think if Djokovic wins the WTF & AO, it's a toss up for HC GOAT btw him & Fed.
9 slams = 9 slams
2 more slam finals for Djokovic
I believe more slam semis for Nole too
Many more HC Masters for Djokovic
6 WTF = 6 WTF
...8 HC slams & 5 WTFs along w/ a bunch of other HC titles. Nole's already top 3 HC player of all X's.
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Can Novak break Roger's record for total wks @ #1? Currently he leads Andy by 2,055 pts in the race & by 4,695 in the ranking.
At YE '16, he w/b @ 231 wks*. That'll leave him needing 72 more wks. Consecutively, he'll have to keep it till late May '18. (Altho he could do it in bits & pieces)
Nole's history @ #1 is as follows:
53 wks Jul '11 - Jul '12
48 wks Nov '12 - Oct '13
130 wks Jul '14 - Dec '16*
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He's gonna get it; needs a yr & 1/2. Djoko w/b likely #1 @ least until some of his pts continue to drop off, assuming he doesn't play well. Probably not until after the AO & likely not until after RG. At that pt, assuming someone else has played better for a while wk in & out, they'll surpass ND. ...So no reason ND can't take it back from them & be amongst the top 2 or 3 & in contention for the spot for yrs to come. Consider Fed was @ #1 for a brief while at age 31.
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Novak won only 1 slam in '12 & '14 & was still #1 @ YE easily both yrs. After Wimbledon '13 Murray held 2 slams, is quite consistent himself, held some Masters as usual, & was 1000's of pts behind a 1 slam Novak. It took Nadal winning 2 slams & 5 Masters to barely wrestle #1 away from a 1 slam Novak in '13. ...Novak even winning slams @ the kind of slow rate from now on that prevented him from getting to #17 or #18 w/b unlikely t/b knocked out of #1 anyX soon. There is nobody else consistent enough, and there is nobody good enough to dominate & win slams in bunches if he himself doesn't right now.***
***Nole's All-X rec:
ReplyDeleteThese records were attained since the Am. era & the Open Era of tennis, since 1877.
Event - Since - - Rec. Accomp. - - Nole tied/Stands Alone
G.S. - 1877 - Hold'n all 4 Majors titles - 3 diff. surfaces - SA
Non-CY - GS - SA
13 HC F's - SA
7 cons. HC F's - SA
88% HC match winning % - SA
ATP WT '70 Holding all 4 GS's & YEC @ once - SA
35 Top-tier HC tourn. won - SA
10 Top tier tourn. won in a sn ('15) - SA
18 Top tier tourn. F's in a row - SA
15 str. F's reached in a sn ('15) - SA
30+ match wins vs Top 10 opps in a sn ('15) - SA
Defeated all Top 10 players in a sn ('15) - SA
83% career match winning % - SA
ATP WT Masters '70 30 singles titles - SA
22 HC Masters titles - SA
6 titles won in a single sn (2015) - SA
31 cons. match wins - SA
2 years winning 5+ titles - SA
1+ titles at 8 diff. tourn. - SA
2+ titles at 8 diff. tourn. - SA
3+ titles at 6 diff. tourn. - SA
4+ titles at 5 diff. tourn. - SA
83% career Masters match winning % - SA
ATP Rankings '73 >est # of pts accrued as #1 (16,950) - SA
Paris Masters '68 4 singles titles - SA
IW's Masters '74 5 singles titles - SA
China Open 1993 6 singles titles - SA
Shanghai Masters 2009 3 singles titles - SA
GS tourn. rec:
These records were attained in the Open Era of tennis since '68.
- GS - Year(s) - Rec. Accomp. - Nole tied/SA
- AO - FO - Wimbl. - US Open
'15–16 Non-Cal. Yr GS - SA
'15–16 Holding all 4 Major titles @ once - Laver
'15–16 Holding all 4 Major titles on 3 diff. surfaces @ once - SA
'15–16 Holding all 4 GS & YEC simult.- SA
'08–16 CGS - Laver, Agassi, Federer, Nadal
'15–16 30 cons. GS match wins - SA
'10–16 3+ cons. F's @ all 4 Majors - SA
'15 Reached all 4 GS F's in a CY - Laver, Federer
'07–08 Youngest player to reach the SF's of all 4 Majors - SA
'07–08 Youngest player to reach all 4 Majors SF's consec. - SA
- AO - US Open
'07–16 13 HC F's overall - SA
'10–13 7 cons. HC F's - SA
'05–16 Highest HC match winning % - 88.2% (120–16) - SA
- Wimbl. - US Open - AO
'11–12
'15–16
2 streaks of 3 cons. Major titles - Federer
- AO - Wimbl.
'08–16
'11–15
3+ titles each of the 2 Majors - Federer
- AO - FO
'16 - AO/FO title double in a season - Laver, Wilander, Courier
- AO '12 Longest GS F (by duration) vs Nadal - Nadal
Djokovic's the 8th man in tennis history to win CGS & 1 of 6 players in Open Era (Connors, Wilander, Agassi, Federer, Nadal) to win GS's on 3 diff. surfaces.
Records @ each GS tourn., since '68.
- GS - Year(s) - Rec. accomp. - Nole tied/SA
AO - '08–16 - 6 singles titles - SA
'08–16 6 F's - SA
'11–13 3 cons. titles - SA
'11–13 3 cons. finals - Wilander, Lendl
'11–14 25 cons. match wins - SA
FO - '09-16 6 cons. SF's aps - SA
USO -'12 Longest final (by dur.) vs Murray, Wilander, Lendl
Djokovic's the 1st & only player in the Open Era t/b undefeated in 6 AO F's, sitting @ a perfect 6-0 record.***
***ATP WTF's rec:
ReplyDeleteIntrod. in '70 & was orig. known as the Masters GP.
X Span - Rec. Acc. - Nole tied/Stands Alone
'12–15 - 4 cons. titles - SA
'11 - Qual. early – 18 wks, 6 days - SA
ATP Masters rec:
GP Super Series began in '70.
ATP MS introd. in '90 & renamed ATP Masters 1000 in '09.
'07–16 - 30 titles - SA
'07–16 - 43 F's - SA
'07–13 - 8/9 titles won - SA
'15 - 6 titles won in a single sn - SA
'15 - 8 F's reached in a single sn - SA
'11,'14–15 - Strk of 5 titles - SA
'12–15 - 12 F's won in a row - SA
'11 - 31 cons. match wins - SA
'15 - 39 match wins in a single sn - SA
'11,'14–15 - 2 strks of 30+ cons. match wins - SA
'11–12,'15 - 3 yrs reaching 6+ finals - SA
'11–12 - 2 cons. yrs reaching 6+ finals - SA
'11,'15 - 2 yrs winning 5+ titles - SA
'11,'14–15 - 2 strks of 5 titles - SA
'11,'14–16 - 4 yrs winning 4+ titles - SA
'11–16 - 4 strks of 4 titles - SA
'13–16 - 3 strks of 4 cons. tourn. titles - SA
'07–15 - 4+ titles at 5 diff. tourn. - SA
'07–16 - rec. holder of most titles won 4 diff. tourn. - SA
'14–15,'15 - Simult. holder of 6 diff. tourn. titles @ once - SA
'11–15 - 2 cons. titles @ 6 diff. tourn. - SA
'15 - 4 cons. title defenses - SA
'15 - Winning the 1st 3 tourn. of a sn - SA
'11,'16 IW's/Miami/Montr. M title triple (twice) - SA
'11,'14–16 IW's/Miami M title double won 4 X's - SA
'07–16 - Miami/Canada Masters title double won 4 X's - SA
'13,'15 - Autumn sweep (winning Shanghai, Paris & YEC cons.) - SA
'13–15 - 3 yrs winning Paris M. & YEC B2B - SA
Rec. @ each Masters:
IW - '08–16 5 titles - SA
'07–16 - 6 F's - Fed
'14–16 - 3 cons. titles - Fed
Miami Open '07–16 - 6 titles - Agassi
'14–16 - 3 cons. titles - Agassi
'07 - Youngest player to win the title - SA
Shanghai -'12–15 - 3 titles - SA
'12–15 - 3 F's - Murray
'12–13 - 2 cons. titles - Murray
Paris -'09–15 4 titles - SA
'13–15 - 3 cons. titles - SA
Other rec:
Attained in the Open Era of tennis since '68.
'16 - >est # of pts accrued in ATP rankings as #1 (16,950) - SA
'11–15 - Min. of 10,000 pts accrued for 5 cons. yrs as #1 - SA
'16 - The "player to beat" on hard, clay, grass & indoors @ the same X - SA
'05–16 - 80%+ win rate on all 3 diff. surfaces: hard, clay & grass - SA
'07–16 - 47 Top-tier tourn. won (Big Titles) - Fed
'07–16 - 35 Top-tier HC tourn. won - SA
'14–15 - 7 Top tier tourn. won in a row - SA
'14–16 - 2 streaks of 7 cons. Top-tier titles - SA
'11,'15–16 - 2 streaks of 7 titles - SA
'15 - 15 str. F's in a sn - SA
'09–16 - 3-peat @ 7 diff. tourn. - SA
'06–15 - 20+ wins over each other member of the Big 4 (Fed, Nadal & Murray) - SA
'06–16 - Winning H2H rec. vs each other member of the Big 4 - SA
'06–15 - 20+ wins over 4 diff. opp. (Nadal, Fed, Murray & Berdych) - SA
'06–16 - 26 match wins vs. 1 opp. (Nadal) - SA
'15 - 31 match wins vs. Top 10 opp. in a single sn - SA
'15 - 37.8% - % of Top 10 wins to the overall match wins of a sn - SA
'15 - Def. all Top 10 players in a sn - SA
'11–15 - 5 yrs winning 20+ matches vs. Top 10 opp. - SA
'11 - 5 cons. match wins vs #1 player in F's (Nadal) - SA
'08–15 - 7 match wins over defending GS chps - SA
'07 - Youngest player to def. the Top 3 players in succ. (Roddick, Nadal & Fed) - SA
'15 - Most $$ won in a sn ($21,646,145) - SA
'16 - All-X prize $$ leader ($104,563,310) - SA
'09–15 - 6 China Open titles - SA
'12–15 - 4 cons. China Open titles - SA
'07–10 - 4 cons. YE @ #3 - SA
'04–16 - 83.0% (742–152) - >st overall match winning % - SA
84.3% (489–91) - >est HC match winning % - SA
74.5% (146–50) - >est deciding set winning % - SA***
***OK, let's have a proper age-to-age comparison:
ReplyDeleteFederer was Djokovic's current age (29 y, 5 mos) around the end of '10/early '11. @ that X his HC record was 451-99 or 82% considerably <er than Djokovic's 492–91 or 84.4%
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Djokovic was winning masters & reaching slam SF/F age 20. Fed was 22 before he reached that level. Nole's decline w/b much more painful since his pushing /grinding game doesn't translate well into old age. Fed's all court supreme GOAT gliding game does, which is why he sustained success into his 30s. ...seeing as Fed barely cared about masters & focused on slams since he played in a strong era where he had to concentrate his efforts.
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It's fairly obvious that Djokovic'll drop his level considerably from where it has been for the past 18 months leading up to this yr's Wimbledon. If he can't win AO, then his next big chance is USO. I don't think he will win AO b/c unfortunately it's the next slam taking place. If AO was 2 slams away he would have X to re-find his game, & grow in confidence in X for it's arrival. As it is, he won't have enough match play before Jan. & likely Murray'll win his maiden title, given how on form he currently is. So I don't see '17 being a very good yr for Novak, however it's possible that he recovers in X for USO, by which X Murray might not be quite so red hot. Djokovic could win both '17 USO & '18 AO & retire w/ 14 slams like Nadal. I don't think he can possibly win 17 slams or stay #1 @ 303 wks anymore. Those goals are too far from reach now, & I find it unlikely that he'll reach the final of another slam after AO '18.***
I don't like it, but it's probably prophetic! Up to this season's FO, he was a lock making his opps look helpless; esp. Rafa @ Qatar! Something's going on we don't know about b/c he hasn't been himself in months! I predicted he'd take '15 fall season w/ China, Paris, Shanghai, & London, but any predictions this fall is hubris! I didn't think it possible to lose the #1 ranking, but it's touch & go w/ Murray coming on strong! We'll see!
***Nole loses Shanghai SF to RBA! He's still had the best yr on tour. He'll end his career winning more MS titles than anyone else. He lost a match vs a guy who showed @ the FO he could cause Djokovic some problems. 2 slams, a few masters, a slam runner up. Why are people calling this a crisis? The only bad loss he's had this year was vs Querrey. He basically didn't even turn up for that match. I still think Djokovic will win the AO, & win 14 slams @ the least. He just won't be making finals of every tournament of the yr in the future (which is something I've only see Djokovic do anyway).
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NOVAK DJOKOVIC - Optimistic (20%): After some time off with the family, he comes back strong next year and wins AO, regaining confidence and returning to his his 2015-early 2016 form, winning at least two Slams in 2017, a couple more in 2018 to tie Federer, and then one or two more in 2019 or later to solidify his crown as the GOAT with most year-end #1s, Slams, Masters, and WTFs of all X.
Pessimistic (10%): This is the beginning of the end, & not only that it's coming quicker than we thought. He loses the #1 to Andy & struggles next yr, winning 1 Slam @ most, & perhaps just that 1 more for the rest of his career. He plays on a few more yrs, but greatly diminished.
Realistic (70%): He finds a form somewhat similar in level to '12-14 for another yr or 2, when he remains the overall best player in the game, but now 1st among =s. He wins a few more Slams, passes Pete & Rafa, but can't quite get to Roger. He loses the #1 ranking someX in '17, but gains it back, & loses it again--swapping it w/ Andy, & then other players in '18 & beyond before losing it entirely in '19 or so.***
***Can Djokovic defy history? In the Open Era, looking @ players that have won 10+ slams. Nobody has won more than 1 slam past the age of 29.
ReplyDeleteSlams won after turning 29:
Borg, 0(retired at 26).
Sampras, 1
Federer, 1
Nadal, 0
Djokovic, 1 - 1st he has to break out of the "1 group"
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He'll probably win another slam & thus become the 1st guy to win 2 after his 29th BD (@ least Open Era). The real ??'s always some form of "Can Djokovic break the GS record?" The answer is yes, but it's unlikely & you're starting to see why in the 2nd 1/2 of this yr. - ...He'll go into the AO as the underdog if he doesn't win the YEC & Murray does. I realize that sounds insane, since he's won the AO 6 X's, but he's checked out of the game mentally.
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'11 proved that no version of Djokovic could beat peak Federer on any surface except maybe AO after they slowed it down.
'11 RG proves that any version of peak Fed owns Djokovic there
'12 Wimbledon grandad Fed owning peak Djokovic puts any argument there to bed
'11 USO grandad Fed outplays Nole, but blows MP. Any '04-09 Fed wins that in straights vs peak Nole
'11 AO Nole was very lucky 1st 2 sets then Fed gave up. Fed was playing about 1/2 his '09-10 level... and even way < than his '04-07 levels. Peak Fed no doubt wins here too. Djokovic was playing well, but lucked out majorly, esp. 2nd set vs post prime grandad Fed.
TBH '11 is the luckiest yr I've ever seen. I mean '15 was weaker by far... but AO those 1st 2 sets vs Fed were unbelievable... then the USO SF robbery... then avoiding Fed by virtue of a GOATing Tsonga, who then decides to mug up the SF after playing his best ever match vs Fed...
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Even if you take Federer out of the equation, there's still the small matter of a 6-0 H2H Djokovic had over Nadal that yr, all in finals, & on 3 diff. surfaces no <. That's 1 of the many reasons why '11 will always be regarded as 1 of the all X great seasons, & very deservedly so.
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A great yr, but too many '*' for me. Wimbledon is "avoided Fed" USO is "Fed choked the SF" Even AO Fed should've had a 2 set lead, but ends up str. setted after blowing 5-2 on his own serve.
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You really don't wanna be going down the old '*' road where comp's concerned, not when Nadal & even '11 Federer were light yrs ahead of anyone Roger faced during his peak yrs. Anyway I've been over this a million X's before & I really don't care to debate it all again.
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Djokovic's peak level is better than Nadal's everywhere except clay. Yes even better on grass. Although Nadal's peak on grass is lower than Djokovic's, it is more effective vs Federer b/c of the matchup. So Fed beats Nadal in 5 on grass, but str. sets Djokovic, who in turn beats Nadal in 4.***
Believe it or not, before the FO he was ok; esp. in Qatar destroying Nadal in about an hr! He didn't miss, ran Rafa to death, & actually toyed w/ him like a cat w/ a mouse! I can watch that match over & over again! ;)
***Every match involving Djokovic & Nadal often produces that result; a hopeless Nadal vs an imperious Djokovic. I actually enjoy when he beats Nadal badly. The patch btw MC '12-USO '13 didn't show up that kind of level Djokovic set himself to beat Nadal, + Nadal's new tactics. I don't like Djokovic, but I do really enjoy when he destroys Nadal. Didn't watch Doha, but it was unreal. Hope to see many more of those trashings yet again, even if the prize @ stake is a GS.***
***...For Novak, he had 2 choices, the 1st was to step aside & allow these 2 legends (Fedal) to make history, or he refuses to bow down & wants to become the legend he always dreamed of when he was child. For him the choice was obvious. Roger @ that pt was redefining tennis. He knew that if he was to ascend to the throne that everyone was expecting him to, & surpass Pete, he had to do the 1 thing that Pete couldn’t do, & that's win RG. To take him to the pinnacle, he needed a more complete resume that even the great Sampras before him, & it took immense mental fortitude, drive, willpower, & determination for Roger to set & then pursue yr after yr such ambitious goals for himself. ...
ReplyDeleteNovak pretty began his career surrounded by these 2 supernovas, a completely unprecedented situation. He fought them, got beaten, & came back stronger. The more they showed their superior play, the more lessons he learnt. ...Now Novak knew that he needed everything they had; the Slam record, wks @ #1, the CGS, the WTF's, the YE's, the Masters titles, the all surface dom. Anything < w/b seen as a failure. ... RG...If ever he wanted to have his name to be said in the same breath as theirs, he couldn’t have a gap that big in his resume, even if he put together outstanding records everywhere. It drove him on, losing those epics to Roger, Rafa & Stan in Paris. ...The mental, emotional, & physical burden you have to go through day in & day out, wk after wk, month after month, yr after yr, & have the heart of a lion to keep taking the beatings, the setbacks, the heartbreaks, & then to finally hold that ever elusive RG title. ...
RG had become like a double edged sword, b/c in his relentless pursuit to capture the title, Novak created w/o a doubt the greatest 18 months ever in the history of the game. Fedal had set the standards of what he must need to do, if he ever dared to walk amongst them. The all court surface dom., the Masters titles haul, the WTF's, Slams on all surfaces...you simply were not allowed a weak pt. To stand amongst them almost destroyed Novak. I don’t think he ever truly recovered since RG. That spring uncoiled w/i & everything was released. So you ask me why Novak is the way he is now, it is b/c you can only fight so hard & so passionately for so long. It is in this flaw that legends likes Roger, Rafa & Novak truly leave their legacy behind, b/c it is in this you see their human side, & understand it was a human who put together a superhuman effort.
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Top 10 best seasons of the Open Era - Here is my list, from best to last.
1. Laver '69
2. Djokovic '15
3. Federer '06
4. Djokovic '11
5. Federer '07
6. Federer '04
7. Nadal '10
8. McEnroe '84
9. Federer '05
10. Nadal '08. You?***
ITA for the most, agreeing w/ the OP, but give an honorable mention to Sampras' '95 w/ Borg's '78, '79. & '80!
***Djokovic/Slams in his 2 best seasons:
1) Djokovic '15 Slams:
MelB: Bt 3 top 10 players (1 top 5)
RG: Bt 2 top 10 players (includ. defending champ. Nadal) (1 top 5)...Lost to 1 top 10 player)
AELTC: Bt 2 top 10 players (1 top 5; #2)
USO: Bt 2 top 10 players (1 top 5; #2)
TOTAL: 9 Top 10 Wins (4 Top 5 Wins)/1 Top 10 Loss
2) Djokovic '11 Slams:
MelB: Bt 3 top 10 players (2 top 5, includ. #2)
RG: Lost to #3
AELTC: Bt 1 top 10 player (1 top 5; the #1)
USO: Bt 2 top 10 players (2 top 5; #2 & #3)
TOTAL: 6 Top 10 Wins (5 Top 5 Wins)/1 Top 5 Loss
===
Movak was going for the CYGS & held all 4 slams @ 1 pt & then after he won the FO & CS, he hit a speedbump & hasn't been able to win crap. You would think going for the CYGS would motivate a player, but that's not what happened after Djokovic won the FO @ all. So yes, he's in a bit of a crisis for him & his standards. ...***
***In all honesty, Nole won't be catching Federer in the slam count IMO. He'll fall short, but will end his career w/ a heck of a resume. The wks @ #1 though, that has an outside chance for him. If by the conclusion of '17, Djokovic gets to 14 slams, including a double CS, wins a 6th & 7th WTF, & ties Pete w/ 6 YE #1's, gets either his 1st channel slam or =s Federer's HC slam tally, + adds on a significant amount of X as #1.
ReplyDelete---
Djoke's 3 wins were not impressive. He'll need to get himself together over the break if he wants to stay in the top 3 next yr.***
I'll keep saying it; Nole hasn't been impressive since Qatar! He has been limping along since he won the FO & it's a wonder he's been able to hold onto his top ranking for this long but for the huge lead from last season! He's played just well enough to stay ahead of the ATP also-rans that I'll continue to call "gutless!" Roger was on his last legs, Rafa's even losing matches to his compatriots w/ leads, while Nole's been mediocre at best! It took a perfect storm for Murray to get where he is & Nole still has a chance to reclaim & hold onto the #1 ranking during the long dead period btw now & the AO! He's had every break so far w/ pigeons in his group, not to mention the cakewalk to the final of the USO w/ WD's, opp. injuries, & walkovers! He allowed Stan to take him! He has another chance to show he's "the best" & deserves to have that moniker!
***Novak has seemingly "struggled" after RG this yr. During that span of X he's still 20-5, or an 80% win rate. In '16, only Novak & Andy had win % >ter.
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It's actually nice to see someone rooting for Raonic here.***
I'd love to see a new winner come along; been rooting for Kei, Grigor, & Milos for quite a while & see great promise in the newest gen. w/ Zverev, Pouille & Thiem!
***...I assume you mean, has there ever been a situation where 2 players have met in all 4 slam finals & the WTF final during their careers? In which case, yes: Djokovic & Nadal.***
People always thought Borg/McEnroe, Connors/Borg, Lendl/McEnroe, Laver/Rosewall, Sampras/Agassi, & a few others were THE comp. final "to see!" I don't think any of them = the Nadal/Djokovic rivalry & finals! The FO saved it from being more 1-sided IMO w/ Rafa winning all but 1 of the matches in Paris! They've met the most & only in the last 2 yrs has it started being in Nole's favor; competitively & overall record-wise! Federer s/b thanking his stars that Nole was around to stop Rafa from dominating for yrs, obliterating the recordbooks & his legacy! Roger only had the #'s in his favor while being Nadal's pigeon on just about every surface!
YE #1. If Djokovic wins the WTF, it w/b his 5th YE #1, so a Federer strength w/b tied. Sampras also has 6, so really Fed isn't that special to begin w/.
Wks @ #1. If Djokovic wins the WTF, he w/b back @ #1 & add more wks in the off season. He'll again make a move on another 1 of Federer's strength in the upcoming future. Sampras is also too close to Fed, it's not really that special of a tally.
HC GOAT. If Djokovic wins the WTF, the debate for the HC GOAT will again be very close. Fed has 4 AO, 5 USO, 6 WTFs, 18 Masters 1000 while Djokovic has 6 AO, 2 USO, 6 WTFs, 22 Masters 1000. Things will get very interesting, no clear HC GOAT.
***Why Djokovic's '15 wasn't as great as many think: an analysis
ReplyDelete- http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2015-12-13/21340.php -
Yes, Novak just wrapped up 1 of the >est seasons in tennis history. There’s no denying that. It deserves its place among the best. But it’s not the best nor do I think it’s even his best.
Djokovic had an = stronger '11 when he won 3 GS's & finished #1. This yr & the last few yrs have been a step backward in the quality of men’s tennis. Of course that’s coming off a high from around '09-11. I think the peak level of play was 3-4 yrs ago when Djokovic, Fed, Nadal & = Murray were all @ a very high level.
At present, Murray’s still good, Fed is playing well, but Nadal is the real laggard. He’s been a shell of his former self. The level of comp. in gen. has declined of late. Let’s compare who’s better now vs '11:
2 Murray – I don’t see much change in Murray. He's benefited from the decline of Nadal & Fed.
3 Federer – '11 ...He’s 34 now, he was better in '11 when he was 30. I know he had a great yr in '15, but he benefited from a weak field.
4 Nadal – '11 ...Nadal was a beast in '10/11. Almost unbeatable. Now when he plays Djokovic, it’s an utter mismatch.
Many top players had a “down” yr in '15. But to me the key guys are Fed & Nadal.
In '11 Djokovic went 4-1 (80%) vs the Swiss. This yr he was 5-3 over Roger (62.5%).
...Roger still authored a 17-match win streak following his 5-set loss to Novak in the USO SF. And he never lost to anyone outside the Top 20 all yr.
...Meanwhile, the younger gen. like A. Zverev, Coric, Kokkinakis, Sock & Kyrgios are all rising quickly. Again why? B/c the young guys are better than these middle-tier, B-level 30-70 ranked guys. And also now when facing a Roger or Rafa, there’s a chance to win (& Kyrgios took advantage last yr vs Rafa & then beat Roger this yr). 4, 5 yrs ago there wasn’t that chance.
Back in '11, Djokovic was faced w/ a peak Nadal (beat Nadal 6 out of 6 X's), a worthy – not aging per se – Federer & a competent Murray. And I still believe that had Fognini not WD from that FO QF, Novak would have won RG that yr. He was playing that good. And yes, better than today (I think Novak '11 beats Novak '15. FWIW, Novak has better serve #'s this yr, but he had better return #'s in '11).***
Regardless of actual stats, only taking a glance @ the RB; my personal memory says Nole not only acquired 3 more majors in '15, he took an extra match since he also was a finalist in Paris after dropping semi to Fed in '11! He set a record in Masters 1000 history, winning 6 & being in all 8 finals he played skipping Madrid! He not only took an extra MS1000, he won the YEC; his 4th in a row & 5 overall! I can only go by the overall record; no matter what the stats say & how much more impressive he was in demolishing his opp.!
***...'11 was definitely more impressive than '15! '14-17 will go down as the weakest era in history.***
'11 is more impressive due to level of comp. was much stronger! Everyone was around & healthy including 6 str. final wins over Nadal & Roger & Andy nipping @ his heels in the semis! Nole was more offensive & took it to his rivals while in '15 he waited them out; more a war of attrition he successfully coined as 1 of the best ever!
Repost from last yr:
ReplyDelete***Novak has won 9 out of the last 10 matches vs Rafa & 11 of the last 13 vs Andy. That's not even comp. anymore. And in terms of BO5, you can add Roger to the list of players who are not comp. w/ Novak anymore too. Roger hasn't beaten Novak at a GS for 3 and 1/2 yrs. He's currently the only 1 of those 3 who can beat Novak at all & the only 1 who has challenged him in any form @ a slam, so while I agree to an extent, the reality is 35 yo Roger is Novak's toughest opp. at the moment. Besides Andy, Roger & Stan, Novak has few challengers right now. Despite his age, the old fart has won 4 of the last 10 vs Novak compared to 1 of 10 for Nadal and 2 of 13 for Murray. So they're still his main challengers along w/ Stan in "Stanimal" mode, not the more frequent disinterested & crap Stan who shows up more often.***
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Tech. Nole's been #1 for the last 5 yrs before end of '16; '11, '12, '14, 15, & = 2013 when the ITF went w/ him over Nadal w/ his 2 majors!
***Yes, I was just saying that '16 for Nole w/b better than his super strong '12, '13, & '14.
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I couldn't really care < about H2Hs, but I'm not gonna lie, if you'd told me after the '13 USO that Nole would win 9 of their next 10 meetings, it definitely would've alleviated my depression at the X. In fact looking back I think that final was pivotal in terms of Novak's mindset in their future encounters. It was really due to that defeat that he hired Becker in the 1st place and I imagine it really hurt him @ the X, esp. after what had happened earlier in the yr @ RG. So much so that it seems he's made it his mission in life to never lose to Nadal ever again on HC's. And if he keeps playing the Spaniard like he did in the Doha final, I suspect he never will! - ...Talking about weak era 03-07?***
Well his rival at the X was Roddick? Somehow Roger was able to withstand all that was thrown @ him from our #1 ranked player! ...IIRC Roddick had 4 set pts to go up 2-0 and blew it w/ the 2nd worst choke in Wimbledon history; the 1st being Todd Martin allowing Mal Wash'ton to come back from 1-5 in the 5th set SF!
Nole, like anyone else c/b serving for a match & complicate his life by giving players another life! We've seen it enough X's; 4th set of '12 AO, 3rd set of '11 USO, & 4th set of '14 Wimbledon! He was lucky to win each after allowing Nadal & Fed to tie & take a set they shouldn't have had!
***Novak won '12 AO after beating Ferrer (5th) in 1/4's, Murray (4th) in SF & Nadal (2nd) in finals, as well as @ '13 AO beating Berdych (5th), Ferrer (4th) & Murray (3rd). At '11 AO he was close, beating 6th, 3rd & 5th.***
IMO no one's had it as tough as Nole; making it to #1 & staying there!
***He seems to be doing quite well with this fight for his life so far. - If the ATP pros, namely the ones at the top, let this catastrophe happen of Nole acquiring his own non-C.Y. "slam."***
I understand how you feel! I've been calling the "also-rans" of the tour "GUTLESS" for yrs allowing 3 or 4 players to own the tour for a decade or more! Many have the athletic ability & game to win anything, but something btw the ears doesn't allow it! ...Maybe there w/b a changing of the guard around Nole, but so far I'm not sure there's any hope! Players continue to get close, sometimes w/ MP's serving for it, but end up "choking" like dogs; it's even started happening to Nadal!
***Novak's lost the tenacity which enabled him to rule men's tennis for a # of yrs, former mentor Niki Pilic said on Sat. "Djokovic reached the Mt. Everest of tennis last yr after winning the FO," Pilic, who guided the Serb as a jr @ his Munich academy, told Bosnian daily Nezavisne.
ReplyDelete"He had 16,950 pts & that's a tally which'll never be repeated again, but loss of form & missing tourneys made his advantage melt away." He looked untouchable after capturing his 12th GS title @ RG last June, but was dethroned from the top of the world rankings last Nov. by Murray, who beat him in the final of the YE ATP WTF's.
The 29-yo Serb appeared to have rediscovered some of his form when he gained revenge over the Briton in Jan.'s Qatar Open final, but he then suffered a shock 2nd-RD AO exit @ the hands of Istomin. This wk he was beaten by Kyrgios in the QF's of an ATP event in Acapulco, prompting Pilic to cast doubts whether Djokovic can reclaim the top spot.
"Novak had a physical & mental edge 2nd to none, he was in 6th gear," said the 77-yo Croatian who helped a Djokovic-led Serbia to their '10 DC title in an advisory role. "That tenacity is no longer the same. It remains t/b seen whether he can rediscover it & get back to the top level.
"The hard work of the last 5 or 6 yrs has taken its toll. Tennis was the priority every morning, afternoon & evening & all I can tell him is t/b the person he was."***
...Nole's conditioning/stretching will extend his career a bit longer, but the wear has already begun mentally; emotionally! His goals have been reached, his priorities had to change, but I think he has another good run in him! I think he can take another 3 or 4 majors over the next 3 yrs since Roger'll come back to Earth, Murray'll run himself into an early grave, & Nadal's already his pigeon! The problem he'll have is w/ the new gen. which are finally starting to make their mark! Thiem's coming along nicely w/ A. Zverev! Some "middle of the road" players are having nice results of late as well; Milos, Kei, Nick, Querrey, & Grigor! Nole has a bitch of a draw at IW; Del Po & Kyrgios in his Qtr.!
***Most brutal IW draw for Novak, starting w/ R3. Not much relief for Rafa/Fed either. Rafa gets Verdasco in R3, a potential tough customer. Roger @ least seems to have 2 easy rds in Dudi & Johnson.
- Novak's path:
R1. Bye
R2. Elias
R3. JMDP
R4. Zverev/Kyrgios
QF. Fedal
SF. Cilic/Kei
-F. Murray
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There are 4 GS winners in the bottom Qtr. & they together have won 45 GSs. There are 3 GS winners in the other 3 Qtrs put together & they together have won 7 GSs.***
I noticed; believe me! I was saying here & elsewhere, Nole's got a lot of hurdles in his path trying to go for the "double" Masters of IW/Miami for the 4th year in a row! I w/b happy enough if he wins 1 & makes SF of the other! It's gonna be tough!
***...But #1 is deternined off of Masters & lower level tourneys.***
Murray proved that! What other players besides Nole last season & Vilas who both won 2 majors & a host of other tourneys, but was barely a footnote in the '77 season after taking FO & USO (over Connors)? Murray cleaned up in 500's & 250's to help elevate his #'s to take over the TOP SPOT in the world! Lame & 1 of the worst #1's IMO since Roddick! Nole needed to win just 1 more match last fall & this wouldn't have happened until after the AO!
***Vilas was controversial- Nole was not. This w/b remembered for quite some X.***
***Is Zverev '17 the new Djoker '07? An up-&-coming rising star making breakthru wins on the big stage & = taking out Roger Federer. Sounds like we're talking about '07, the yr before the 12-X GS champion made his mark, but this yr, a new face is gracing the tennis courts on the world stage. Alexander Zverev.
ReplyDeleteZverev, the 20 yo German 1st made splashes @ St. Petersburg, defeating 2-X GS champion Wawrinka in the final & #9 Berdych in the SF. Since then, he's defeated numerous Top-10 players & lived up to his hype when he defeated 12-X GS champion Djokovic in the Rome '17 final. After that, he made his mark again when he defeated the great Roger Federer in the Can. Open final, winning his 2nd Masters title of the yr & guaranteeing himself a spot in the Top 10 @ the EOTY.
This performance reminds many of Djokovic only a decade prior. Djokovic, another 20 yo still had to make his mark on tennis. He did so in '07 when he won the Adelaide Open before the AO, where he made it to the 4th Rd. Djokovic really produced results immediately following Melbourne, reaching the final of IW's, only losing out to the World #2 @ the X, Nadal. After that impressive showing, Djokovic took it = further w/ a stunning perf. in Miami, beating Nadal en route to the title.
After a slightly < impressive clay & grass season, w/ many SF's & QF's, Djokovic returned to his preferred surface- HC. He immed. won the Can. Open by beating Fedal en route to his 2nd Masters title of the yr. Djokovic only took this as further motivation, reaching the USO finals & losing to Fed in the finals.
Now, I see great parallels btw the 2 young guns so far.
Djokovic & Zverev both won 2 Masters @ 20, beating Fed in 1 Fnl.
Djokovic & Zverev both cracked the top 10 @ 20 yo.
Djokovic & Zverev both had > than 5 wins vs the top 10 @ 20 yo.
Djokovic & Zverev both won the Can. Open for their 2nd Masters.
However, Zverev still falls short in some departs-
Zverev has never reached the QF's of a slam. Djokovic had reached 2 SF's & a QF by the X he won his 2nd Masters.
Zverev never beat the World #1 & #2 en route to a title. Djokor did in Montreal.
Zverev has yet to dom. his gen, Djokovic was schooling Murray = in the beginning, doing so both X's he won a Masters in '07.
I think '17 w/b a similar yr for Zverev as it was for Djokovic, but Djokovic was ahead in the slams. Comparing their slam results, I est. we see Zverev reach the SF of the USO this yr & the SF/F of the AO. He may win his 1st slam in '18.
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Zverev has the results like Djoko did in '07
Zverev's the hottest thing in tennis in a long X - which isn't nec. saying much.
The difference is... I took 1 look @ Djokovic & thought, "This guy is the goods." I don't claim to have foreseen what Djokovic has gone on to accomplish, but it wouldn't have shocked me to hear it that he would... he was an outstanding talent, by any standard, w/i any strength of field & in any X period.
Zverev... he's good, but he's no Djokovic. The '07-08 versions of Fedal that Djoko was cutting his teeth on... would probably have chewed Zverev up.
If '07 Djoko were here now or Zverev now was in '07... we'd only notice Djokovic as the one w/ great potential, Zverev w/b a, "yeah, he ain't bad either" case.***
Very nice! Thanks!
***I can understand the comparison, but talent-wise I don't think Zverev measures up. Back then, Nole had to compete w/ 2 ATG @ their peak (Fedal) which helped him become the player we know today. Zverev doesn't have to contend w/ that, = though the same 2 ATG are still on tour, they're nowhere near as dom. as before. Would "'07 Djokovic" handle current Fedal >er than Zverev did this yr? I think so.***
***Novak has a chance of repeating his 2012-14 run, but I don't think he can repeat his '11 or '15 season any more. Merely repeating his '12-14 run wouldn't = get him close to Rafa; forget about Roger.***
ReplyDeleteI would never bring up 2015; a record season set that none of these New Gen'rs have a chance of achieving! It's one thing to win 3 majors, but to add 6 Masters & being in all 8 finals played is just unattainable in this lifeX or the next! That season will set him apart from Fedal & just about every other great besides Laver who won the CYGS twice; regard< if he never takes another major title! You see what it did to Nole; it was all downhill after completing his Nole-Slam in Paris last yr!
***I went to see Borg v McEnroe yesterday and I wasn't impressed. I can go as a far as saying it was based on them, but clearly not a true story. Most of the storylines were a figment of someone's imagination. ...= the casting was a bit off. The Borg character wasn't bad, but the McEnroe character didn't work for me although the guy who played his dad was a dead ringer. I'd much rather watch a docu. w/ the real clips than watch that film again. If they do one on Fedal, & long before 30 yrs have passed, I hope they do a much >er job. Fed said something like they've got some footage during his doubles' presser w/ Rafa @ the Laver Cup so something m/b happening.
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The H2H just gives Novak the edge, 26-24. However, since '11, Novak has had 2 cons. 7 winning streaks & a '4 in a row' vs Nadal. That's about 20 wins to 7 in Novak's favor since '11. I think that means Novak pretty much OWNS Nadal. I can't think of any other winning streaks that big by 1 top 5 player over another top 5 player in the last 20 years. I'll never forget that '11 Wimbl. final. Novak had Nadal running around like a rabbit trying to get all of Novak's angled shots. It was so embarrassing. In a lot of cases, pro tennis is a game of matchups, & Nadal doesn't matchup well @ all w/ Novak.
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'Own' is a strong word. However, since '11, aside the summer of '13, Djokovic pretty much owned Nadal on HC. If Djokovic finds his motivation again in '18, it w/b a really hard X for Nadal. - ...Djokovic actually allowed Nadal to show his worthiness for GOAT. To have an all X great rival enter his absolute prime, while Nadal in his post-prime had to figure out a way to still beat him in the biggest matches. And he did it. Nadal could easily have capitulated & quit like Borg did vs McEnroe arriving in his prime, but Nadal, although losing many smaller matches to Djokovic, found a way to keep winning big ones.
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'06: 1-0 Nadal
'07: 5-2 Nadal
'08: 4-2 Nadal
'09: 4-3 Nadal
'10: 2-0 Nadal
'11: 6-0 Djokovic
'12: 3-1 Nadal
'13: 3-3 (Nadal wins both matches @ Majors)
'14: 2-1 Djokovic (Nadal wins their 1 match @ a Major)
'15: 4-0 Djokovic
'16: 2-0 Djokovic
'17: 1-0 Nadal
Djokovic was clearly >er than Nadal during 2 periods which were also the best of his career: '11 & '15-16. Coincidentally, '15-16 was the worst period of Nadal's career. Outside of those 3 yrs, Nadal has "won" the H2H 7/9 yrs, w/ the exceptions being (1) '13, where they split the H2H & Nadal won their 2 matches @ Majors; & (2) '14 where Djokovic won 2/3 matches, but Nadal won their FO final.
Djokovic has the 26-24 H2H lead due to his 12-0 rec. vs Nadal in '11 & '15-16 (24-14 Nadal otherwise), & Nadal has the 9-4 lead @ Majors. I don't think this is a matter of it being a good matchup for Djokovic or a bad matchup for Nadal. These are 2 great players w/ a rivalry that has ebbed & flowed. It's flowed in Nadal's direction for longer periods of X, but it's flowed w/ more intensity in Djokovic's direction for the two periods he dom. That's why he has the slight H2H lead.***
***I really miss the comp. matches btw Fedalovic. I wish that Fed & Novak had peaks around the same X in their careers so that we could have witnessed fantastic matches thru-out the entire yr. They would have stolen a lot of slams & Masters from each other. They are 2 of the >est HC players of all X & probably the most consistent #1 POAT. It was mind boggling to see Djokovic stay fresh @ slams & Masters.
ReplyDelete---
I'm fine w/ Spain winning; you know I don't care @ all about DC. It's overrated, but anything that may lead to Nadal overplaying is cool w/ me.***
I'm really shocked! I thought Spain was quite vulnerable; = w/ Nadal! The Spanish Armada isn't what it used t/b & kicking Ferrer out there seems to me as if "red flags" s/b waving! Where's their "next gen?" France in the same predicament w/ aging stars & successors not ready for prime X = though Pouille did his job this wkend!
***This era has been rather more predictable:
'17: For sure, we thought that it was going t/b the yr. of Murray/Djokovic w/ Fedal fading into the sunset. The surprise was that it was the opp. The < than surprising part was that, in the absence of Andy & Novak, it was Fedal that really stepped up.
'16: No one foresaw Djokovic not bouncing back from a fade after RG, but again, not so surprising that it was Murray of all the options.
'15: OK, Stan was def. a surprise in that final. Everyone thought it was Nole's that yr.
'14: Wawrinka & Cilic: correct...no one would have called either really.
'13: Again, true. Nadal's comeback was fearsome, & more than = a fan could have wished for. But still, it was Nadal.
'12: Nothing strange happened. Each of the big 4 won a Major, & they tended t/b the last 4 men standing @ big tourneys. OK, Andy won a gold medal & finally got his 2st Major, but no one could call those wins shocking.
'11: Djokovic didn't come out of left field as a perennial #3-4, but no one really thought he'd take such a big leap forward in form & confidence, & that it would last so long.
All that said, these X's won't last forever & I think we're moving into a period that's going t/b LOADS more complicated to predict.
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I see nothing wrong w/ claiming Fed's 10 yrs past his peak. The guy is 36 after all. The longer he plays, the longer his post-peak period will become. Longest post-peak per. of any player which includes sev. wks @ #1 10 yrs later.
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Another aspect people don't pay attention to is the mental one. Fed in '08-09 not only suffered a slight drop in level, but he was also facing tremendous pressure, pressure that Rafa & Novak have never faced. The guy was only 2 slam short of Pete's GS record so undoubtedly his mind was on brk'n it. He was close to immortality as nothing is >er than having the most slams. Would Djokovic have been as dom. in '15 if he had been 2 slams away from the slam rec.? Probably not. It's easy t/b as dom. as he was when he had no pressure. Likewise w/ Nadal in '13.***
The way I see it, no one had more pressure on him than Nole; trying to come into his own & @ the same X deal w/ Fedal already anointed as the GOATs!
***That's not pressure. How can you face pressure when you are the hunter or challenger like Novak was? The only X he faced tremendous pressure was when he was chasing 4 slams in a row. But = that pales in comparison to the slam rec.***
Nole had tons of pressure put on him after winning AO in '08 & a couple Masters titles! He went a while w/ nothing until '11 when he broke out winning everything in sight! Then there was the pressure of holding on while battling Fedal; winning 7 in a row vs Rafa init. & overtaking Roger in their H2H!
***I agree to an extent w/ this. When Nole came to the scene Fedal were in the GOAT debate. Nole inserted himself into it for some X. Unfortunately for him many will always see him as the Third one.***
There were yrs of futility w/ Fed unable to brk thru Djokovic's defenses; = on grass twice ('14,'15) where he shb favored! He's not only winning majors again, he's embarrassing the 1 person that's owned him for the most part! ...All 3 of Fedalovic are deficient @ 1 of the majors w/ Nadal being nipped again & again in finals since '12! It was a fantasy w/ Fedal being lit'l more than a marketing RIVALRY, all of us being conned into making excuses for Roger! I was believing it = though Roger's the seasoned vet & should've been able to steal 1 match off "the BULL" in RG!
ReplyDelete***Novak fans are the 1's w/ the inferiority complex, who for yrs couldn't accept that Novak wasn't as good as the other 2, & once he finally dom., they wanted to rush him to a historical pedestal he hadn't yet earned. Novak fans are also particularly insecure about ??'s of popularity & marketability.***
Nole's never been in the discussion, = when he was owning it like no other for a 2 seasons! Like Navratilova before him as a reigning #1, the advertising $$'s & adoration went somewhere else; mostly to Evert! There was no mistaking it & few had any illusions of why it was happening! Fedal was coined making it easier to bring in fans who didn't play the game; putting them up on a pedestal before they actually earned it as well! Their rivalry was supposed t/b the talk of legend = though Roger was scratching to beat Rafa on grass! I got caught up in it too; actually helping to make excuses for Roger not winning a match! Rafa made for an easy target w/ a hideously ugly game, gaming his opps since he was a kid, made the world play @ his speed, & to this day prob. feels no shame in matches he may have actually stolen 1 way or another!
Djokovic has a winning rec. over Fedal IIRC & got them in their prime when they owned the tour! Nole, like Lendl before him had to overcome the likes of Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, & Wilander, & never got or will get the love! He's more settled & happy more than likely, so that hunger may have left him for the X being! ...Owning the Nole-Slam sets him apart = though he'll prob. wind up short in MAJORS! I can't imagine why I'd have an inferiority complex as evidenced by Homage to the Serb listed in the signature! I'm quite proud of him & will help to keep him in the discussion if only vicariously close to the inevitable GOATS!
***Another decent win by Novak in SF of Queens. First final since Eastbourne last yr.***
If he were to complete this comeback; what a hoot & a feather in his cap for Nole to have won b2b grass court events! That was his last victory last season! I doubt we'll ever be able to say that about a certain "Clay GOAT!" He's having enough trouble getting out of the early Rds of Wimbl. the last few yrs vs players ranked outside the top 100!
***What made the diff. in the 3rd vs Cilic in his win over Nole in Queens?***
...Nole was doing his thing, running Cilic back & forth, but his opp. hung in there making some great "gets!" Djokovic usually gets very frustrated when there are these 20+ stroke rallies coming up short! It's how he's always lost finals he should have won like '15 FO & '16 USO's vs Wawrinka & the '12 USO & '16 YEC to Murray! Even the matches won by Nole over these 2 have been excruciating long & it usually happens b/c they match up well, dragging the matches out! It's not like Nole's playing poorly, but Stan & Andy raise their level of play to match him! ...along w/ dealing w/ Fedal would have crushed anyone else, but he's trying to make a comeback! I'll take this effort any day; Cilic just won it more than likely!
***What do you think of Djokovic's Wimbl. draw?***
ReplyDeleteDraw for Djokovic isn't bad = though #12 seed; same section as #7 Thiem who's rife for an upset early w/ those long sweeping strokes! I'm hoping Nole represents & gets @ least to the SF's; heaven knows Rafa needs more than that to get out of the early Rds!
***Exactly, Novak got very lucky. Being seeded #12, he could have fallen in Roger's, Cilic's or Rafa's 1/4. Instead, he perfectly landed on Sasha's. Not only that, = there he perfectly landed on Thiem's Octet & that's good for him as Thiem's considered < dangerous than Sasha on grass. Actually, if someone got really lucky in this draw, it's Novak. There's no ?? about it.***
Everyone knows about Djokovic's huge wins over Fedal in majors from '10 USO to '15 FO! Along the way there was AO final in '12 that shb wrapped up in 4, but serving for it, he let the game go, then the TB before surviving Rafa's lead in the 5th! ...I stayed up into the next day to watch it all; the actual 5:53 w/ all the commercials, then the closing...! I was fried!
At Wimbl. in '14, Nole's working Roger over pretty well & has a 2 brk lead in the 4th to finish off the old man! He not only drops both brks, he loses the TB w/ more MP's before coming back to win the 5th! That was so unnec. wear & tear! I could go on, not = broaching the most painful of losses in major finals to Wawrinka & Murray! Nole might have already surpassed Fedal if not for those lapses to players who s/b no more than his pigeons!
***'11 Djokovic's the greatest I ever saw & '15 Djokovic isn't far behind.
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'84 McEnroe was every bit as great as '11 Djoker w/ a multi-dimensional & exquisite game. No grinding, just sublime net play & wicked serve.***
Nole's 2015 more impressive; 30+ wins over top 10, 3 majors, 6 Masters (8 Finals), and capped w/ a YEC! Doubtful anyone w/b doing that in the near future; esp. this group of Next Gen'rs! Federer's '06 & '07 were close, but Nole takes the prize as the best winning season since Laver's '69 taking a CYGS!
***...'11 was a very strong field, arguably the last ever one in the men's game; '12 & '13 too to some extent.
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'15 was weak b/c Novak singlehandedly made them weak. He beat the entire field into submission in previous yrs which lead to its culmination by '15.
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The best 12 month span ever goes to Djoker. From Wimbl. '15 until the FO of '16, he won 4 str. slams while posting a gaudy 85-6 rec. This is the best 1 yr. per. The best CY goes to Laver in '69. A CYGS's massive. Laver pulled off the imposs.
The next best CY? Mac in '84 when he set a rec. for winning % that still stands: he was 82-3 that yr., which includes an outrageous 14-1 vs the top 5. Each player in that top 5 won @ least 7 CS titles. McEnroe’s opps were the toughest ever on surfaces that were far more diverse.
'11 Djoker doesn’t make the cut. For one, he didn’t win the WTF. Fed had 3 diff. yrs in which he won 3 slam titles while also winning the WTF. 2ly, past his prime Fed was 1 pt. away from going 2-1 vs Djoker @ slams that yr. This is no knock on Djoker. I already said that he has the best 12 month span in history.
'11 wasn’t = Djoker’s best yr. '15 was Djoker’s best yr. He won 3 slams & the WTF. He also posted 31 wins vs the top 10, which is a rec. And he beat Fed w/ the modern 97" racket in 2 slam finals. '15 was easily Djoker’s best yr. What I haven’t decided yet is if Djoker’s '15 tops Fed’s '06 season to grab 3rd place on my list. I'll give 3rd to Fed due to his longer schedule. 92 wins is a ton of wins during the yr. And back then, the Master’s series, which weren’t considered important anyway, were BO5.
Best cal. yrs:
1. Laver '69
2. McEnroe '84
3. Federer '06
4. Djoker '15***
***The best 12 month span ever goes to Djoker. From Wimbl. '15 til the FO of '16, he won 4 str. slams while posting a gaudy 85-6 rec. This is the best 1 yr. per.
ReplyDelete...'11 Djoker doesn’t make the cut. For 1, he didn’t win the WTF. Fed had 3 diff. yrs in which he won 3 slam titles while also winning the WTF.
'11 wasn’t = Djoker’s best yr. '15 was Djoker’s best. He won 3 slams & the WTF. He also posted 31 wins vs the top 10, which is a rec. And he beat Fed w/ the modern 97" racket in 2 slam finals. '15 was easily Djoker’s best yr. What I haven’t decided yet is if Djoker’s '15 tops Fed’s '06 season to grab 3rd place on my list. I'll give 3rd to Fed due to his longer schedule. "92 wins" is a ton of wins during the yr. & back then the Master’s series which weren’t considered important anyway, were BO5 in the final.
Best cal. yrs:
1. Laver '69
2. McEnroe '84
3. Federer '06
4. Djoker '15
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While Djokovic was beating Nadal in 7 finals in a row, Fed was losing 4 matches out of 5 to Nadal, winning only 1 RR match. From '10 USO to Wimbl. '12, the Big 3 lost only to each other in GS's: Djokovic won 4 slams, Nadal 3, Fed 1.
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TBH, Novak's movement is very good. ...we never know whether he has a seat @ the table w/ the big boys until we actually see it happen. Rafa's def. in-form & he wouldn't want to let this op to go by.
If the match ends in 3 sets, winner's Novak.
If the match ends in 5 sets, winner's Rafa.
If the match ends in 4 sets, winner's Rafa w/ 60% chance.
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Djokovic can do more things >er on grass than Nadal. You're right that I prefer Djokovic's style of play, but more significantly, he plays the important shots >er on grass. However, I also said that Nadal can find a way to win b/c he can make adjustments & play by fighting for every pt, which can negate Djokovic's superior game.
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...Problem w/ Djokovic-Nadal is the matchup. It basically means that Nadal's patterns of play, the depth, trajectory & bounce of his shots - feed right into Djokovic's game. So you might've Djokovic playing lackluster tennis, but he'll look like a world beater vs Nadal. Conversely, Rafa m/b playing very well, but would look fairly pedestrian vs Djokovic.
To Nadal's credit, he's mitigated some of the matchup issues. ...On grass however, recalling their '11 Wimbl. Final, Nadal was playing much >er tennis then, but still lost very tamely to Djokovic. Even the one set he won in that match was likely b/c of it being Djokovic's first Wimbledon major.
So what does Rafa need to do to win this SF? He has to play >er than ever; as good or >er than the '07-10 level for ex. The problem is that Nadal is nowhere that level. He isn't = playing as good as last yr. '17). His serve looks worse, his FH lacks pace & penetration, on the BH he's loath to flatten it out DTL &'s mostly going cross court or just trying to run around it. His I/O FH's usually played safe & he makes an UFE if he goes for too much. Nadal's used some tactical acumen & great determination to get so far, + luck of the draw. But the thing is that his serve + ground game is just not up to the mark.
So, I really don't see how Nadal could hurt Djokovic tmrw. The familiar patterns of CC FH to BH + cc BH to FH were = costly vs Delpo. Djokovic's a master @ redirecting the ball & making Rafa pay. Also there is no one else who looks more comfortable rallying w/ Rafa's FH than Novak Djokovic.***
Well I hope you're right! It w/b so COSMIC to have all of the "Big 3" leave the tour & seeming t/b done, all come back to win majors! Novak's already in the conversation; pretty much ready to overcome Nadal but for his elbow issue! It was evident something was wrong months before, but somehow held it together to complete his Nole-Slam! Whoever wins this match should win the tourney!
***...But you're not willing to take into acct. that this isn't '11-'12 Djokovic or the '15-'16 version playing @ Wimbl. tmrw?
ReplyDelete---
...I don't think Nole's mentally @ the "'11-12 or '15-16" level. Those yrs, he had a mental aura & just refused to lose. However from a game perspective, his new serve seems very eff.. His FH is almost, now, the more deadly wing. His BH's as solid as ever. He's also stretching & moving as he used to before. So from his form, I think he's close to his prime.
But then again, I don't watch, or analyze Novak's game as keenly as I do Rafa's. So you m/b correct in assuming that Novak is not back & hasn't faced a stronger player. In which case, Nadal might have a >er chance tmrw. I think it's all subjective opinions. Let's see what transpires tmrw.***
That level of play may not occur again for quite a while! These Next Gens don't seem to have the body & stamina to win that much! I believe Nole's near perfection in '15 thru FO in '16 was terribly debilitating since he was making final after final wk in/wk out! Even Fed wasn't doing that back in his "hey day!" Current players like Milos & Kei can't seem to stay on the court more than a month or so before breaking down & being on extended brks for rehabs! I had enough of waiting for Del Po to fulfill his promise, but didn't b/c his wrist snaps like a twig periodically!
***I do think Fed was doing that back in his hey-day. The one thing that Novak endured the pressure on was 4 Slams in a row. Almost everyone expected a let-down after that. But no one expected a 2 yr. walkabout.***
Fed didn't have to deal w/ the current Big 4 @ the X! Nadal was still a neophyte though he owned Roger early! Nole had to deal w/ a lot more comp.; in '15 setting rec. defeating 31 "top 10" pros!
***'15/16 Djokovic had a 6-3 h2h (including 3-0 in Majors) w/ Fed & a 7-0 (1-0 Majors) w/ Nadal. So that’s 13-3 & 4-0 in Majors during that per. w/ what some would argue are the 2 best player of all X. I find that more impressive than Roger’s heyday as far as domination.
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Not sure if Djokovic still has any issues w/ Roger.***
Nole has the "Lendl complex;" getting no love no matter what he did, Ivan got the back of the hand from the fans! Now it's all about Fedal & no one else exists in the minds of the avg. viewer & commentator! Making their '08 Wimbl. final as the "BEST EVER" was, is, &'ll continue t/b a joke! It's more like wishful thinking so these people don't have to really be creative in their writings & commentary; the masses have it ensconced in their brain that tennis begins & ends w/ Fedal!
***# of extra majors Federer would've likely won if Djokovic didn't stop him: 5-6 (AO '11, Wim. '14, Wim. '15, USO '15 + 1-2 of AO '08, USO '11, AO '16)
ReplyDelete# of extra majors Nadal would've likely won if Djokovic didn't stop him: 3 (Wimbl. '11, USO '11, AO '12)
If/when Djokovic stops Nadal 2 more X's, it c/b called =.
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Both Djokovic & Nadal defend so incredibly well. It's a great rivarly to enjoy & hopefully they continue to battle for many more yrs.***
Very entertaining! They bring out the best in each other; & @ X's the worst! This is the true rivalry; even-Steven, then surpassed Rafa after Nole completed 2 strings of wins for 7 str. victories! Fedal was never a real rival w/ Rafa owning Roger early & often! It inexplicable that a change of rackets has made the diff. in "Daddy Warbucks" that he can not only beat his fellow "GOAT," he turned it around winning quite a few in a row going back to AO last season & taking over the #1 ranking for a X to extend his rec.!
***Current odds on SF (w/ the partial result taken into acct).
1. Novak 3/10
2. Rafa 23/10
Works out to (approx.) 77% chance for Novak & 23% chance for Rafa.***
M/b weighing in on Rafa being a notoriously slow starter! He >er get a good sweat in when doing his warm-up in the morning! One slip & he'll be gone in 40 min.! This w/b huge if Nole could pull this off after '17!
***If this 2nd SF doesn't put the nail in the coffin & bring on 5th set TB's, nothing will. Novak finishes off Rafa in SF, 10-8 in the 5th.***
I liked the old days when the TB was initiated @ 8 all! Borg had quite a few he took @ 9-7, 8-6, & 9--8 when he won Wimbl. in '76!
***This win over Nadal was the penultimate match of the tourn.; after Isners loss to Anderson in a long 5.***
It w/b for me as well! Nole was gagging on some of those serves returns late! I've never seen him handcuffed so often! He normally fights them off & @ least gets it back over the net! Those were some horrible misses = when lined up; many flying yds over the baseline or wide! It was a great win, but chb more succinct for a change! Nole has to always give us drama; ala AO '12! This w/b HUGE if Nole pulls this off! "THE Big 4" have all had trials w/ health & physical issues; taking X away, but coming back stronger! Nole took a lit'l more X to "get there!" Looking good & I'm feeling it!
***One particular match of Novak that I'd suggest you watch if you want to see some of the best body serve returns is Djokovic vs Nadal, WTF '15 SF. Novak's footwork while returning those serves was something else.***
I'm sure I saw it; maybe = taped & in collection! The one match I'm obsessed w/ was from 2 yrs ago in Qatar! Nadal & Djokovic were in the final & Nole was flying high as #1! Nadal played well, but Novak was a machine & wouldn't allow Rafa = a pt. if he could steal it! It was probably the last X Djokovic was "in the zone" & annihilated Nadal 1 & 2! I can still hear the announcers after a particularly long rally that Nole won to Rafa's despair; "Djokovic is alive & kicking & Nadal's on the floor! What a pummeling's this has been!"
***Djoker already had one big match w/ Andreson; Wimbl. m/b. We'll see. I think Anderson m/b off in two 5 setters.***
Is this the 1st major since AO back in '08 vs JW Tsonga that Nole hasn't had to go thru the other "Big 4?" He's always had it tough to finish off his wins @ the GS's! Fedal have had their share of pigeons there was no hope of losing to! We can only hope Nole completes this deal & finishes strong to re-estab. his "seat @ the table!"
***The comp. isn't >er. If I'm being nice to the field the last 2 yrs...screw it I have no desire t/b nice, the field's weak as hell. Next Gen hasn't shown us anything yet & injuries w/ a drop of form has made Djoker, Murray, & Wawrinka largely irrelevant. The old X'rs can still play well enough to get by everyone under these circumstances.
ReplyDelete---
Nadal's sink in '15-'16 was a combo of injuries, which led to lack of confidence. Some X off helped him gain both confidence & his game back. Much as it did for Roger, though Roger's regroup went pretty fast, esp. after a much longer fallow per., vis-a-vis Majors, esp. Given that Rafa's younger, & his fall was both shorter & < deep, I think it's much < surprising than Roger's resurgence.
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The fact that Nole won this match playing so badly shows just how much >er a ceiling he has than Nadal. He really has underachieved when you think about it, in terms of allowing Nadal to win so many big matches & esp. so many FO's & = USO's.***
...Esp. dropping those major finals to Murray & Wawrinka; neither are scrubs, but not in Nole's class! They may have played the matches of their lives, but often he cracked b/c they made him hit one more ball! He s/b ahead of Rafa & closing in on Roger but for those losses; 6 snatched from him @ Wimbl., USO, FO, & AO QF in '14!
***Djokovic isn't all the way back yet & from Nadal's perspective that's probably what hurts the most. Djoker played dom. tennis in the 1st set, but after that he was very beatable. Hell @ X's it looked like he was asking t/b beat & Nadal just couldn't get it done. Cash was right in what he said. His comeback wasn't immediate like Fed's. It took 7 months.
Nole obviously has shown some signs, but I thought a few things were telling. His return was mostly terrible in big moments & that's historically his best shot. He clearly struggles moving forward. He'd have reached a lot of Nadal's dropshots w/ ease a few yrs ago. Even his movement to the BH wing isn't fully back. And when he got tight he basically started pushing off both wings. I'm not sure how Nadal lost that match today. Clearly they both played a lot >er yesterday, but Nadal seemed t/b by far the steadier of the 2 today.***
Well Djokovic won his 4th Wimbledon title going away over Anderson! It's his 13th major; 1 behind Sampras! It seems some need to pacify their terror that Nole "might j/b all the way back!" If he wins USO, what'll the naysayers say then?
***Here are some stats that show you how far apart the Big 3 are compared to the rest of the field includ. Muzzah:
Slams:
Federer - 20
Nadal - 17
Djokovic - 13
Murray - 3
"Big Titles" (Majors, WTFs, Olyms & Masters):
Fed - 53
Nadal - 50
Djokovic - 48
Murray - 20
Wks @ #1:
Fed - 310
Rafa - 181
Nole - 223
Murray - 41
YE #1's:
Fed - 5
Rafa - 4
Nole - 4
Murray - 1
3+ Slam Sns:
Fed - 3
Rafa - 1
Nole - 2
Murray - 0
2+ Slam Sns:
Fed - 6
Rafa - 4
Nole - 3
Murray - 1
Career GS:
Fed - Yes
Rafa - Yes
Nole - Yes
Murray - No (only won 2/4)
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I was a proponent of the Big 4, but w/o considering Murray as an ATG. Djokovic winning again changes things.
Yrs from 1st to last slam:
Fed 03-18
Rafa 05-18
Nole 08-18
Murray 12-16
And I think the Big3 aren't done.***
***Mate, he's a Fed fan. He loathes Rafa.***
ReplyDeleteI was speaking of any naysayer trying to undermine Nole's fantastic win! He was no fave & seemed to float under the radar! I never thought this possible & whb happy enough if he had gotten to the SF after a horrendous 2 yrs w/ 2 smaller tourn. wins! It'll take pressure off of him & he might go into the summer w/ new life! It w/b nice if he could complete his resume w/ @ least 1 Cincy Masters!
***...Novak had far >er form in '11, more confidence & was in Rafa's head. I don't think there's any doubt he would've been the fave in that FO match by a good margin if he had survived Fed in the SF.***
That was a glorious period where Nadal was playing his best & had come off '11 as #1! Nole hadn't won anything in 3 yrs besides a few Masters so Nadal had no excuses besides the fact Nole was kickin' his ass! He was actually doing it in str. sets on clay beating him @ Madrid & Rome! I taped every match & was watching them over & over again until Nole started a new streak in '15 culm. in that shellacking in Qatar annihilating Rafa 1 & 2 in early '16!
***Djokovic & Fed both had 3 slams around the X they turned 23. Hmm that's interesting.***
This was one of the 2 best rivalries really; not Fedal (Nadal 23–15 overall & 9–3 in majors)! The other is the most significant w/ more contests btwn. the 2; Djokovic over Nadal 27-25 w/ 2 "7 match win streaks" by Nole over Rafa!
***Hmm, if Djoko wants #1, he's gotta start pretty much now un< he decides to vulture a few 500s.***
That's what Murray did to snatch #1 back in '16's YE! How does someone w/ 2 Majors/& USO final, 4 Masters, completes his Nole-Slam @ the FO, & R-ups @ YEC to wind up #2? That was shameful!
***How'd you assess Fed after Wimby; an off day or injury?***
Why wasn't he just beat? Anderson's no scrub & took Murray out of a USO in a marathon 4 set match 2 yrs ago! I said before the tourney started that Fe was vulnerable to a big server like Isner, Anderson, & Dimitrov who can hang in rallies w/ him! I didn't think he w/b able to sustain '17 level & it showed! It's not like he's playing badly, but it's not elite & there are a few others that can "take him!"
***B/c he had the match lit. on his racket (MP 3rd set) & also had a brk chance iirc in the 4th set too. Other than that, this is Federer @ Wimbl.. Yes, he's not the same player that won Wimbl. 5 X's in a row & wasn't defeated on grass for 6 yrs, but he's still great on the surface. It's laughable that you mention those trio, Anderson is respectable now, but Isner & Dimitrov, esp. the latter lol, wouldn't have a prayer vs Fed. I don't nec. think it was about sustaining his level, it was more his game just fell apart mid way thru the match & never recovered.***
It's like people's memories are in suspended animation! Roger blowing matches w/ X MP's is nothing new! Back in his prime when he supposedly was owning Nole, in '10 & '11 he blew 2 SF's w/ serve in hand @ the USO! It's famous the missed opps & of course the genius of Djokivic's ROS that makes him an all X great alone!
***ITA w/ you that he's done it before & he's done it many X's since then, but @ Wimbl., the expectations are diff. & the last bad loss he had which wasn't in an injury affected yr. was '11, so it's quite shocking to see him lose like that. Much kudos to Nole, his comeback took a while, but it came just @ the right X!***
***...Novak was tent. when playing Rafa @ Wimbl. But, the confidence gained by beating him, actually improved his game. If you noticed, Novak was not pushing @ all vs Anderson, not = in the last set where Nole didn't play very well. ...I do believe that Roger would have beat the Novak if he was playing the way he played against Rafa. …
ReplyDeleteNole isn't strong @ USO b/c it's mostly been a fast HC for his career and on it he's just not very good. Yes he has beaten a badly post-prime Roger a few X's, but on top of a couple ugly losses to Nadal he's lost to Murray, Stan, & Nishikori there. It's a far cry from what AO was to him.***
You also have to take in consideration the X of the yr. for both Nadal & Djokovic! Being fresh @ the beginning of the season obviously has helped Nole w/ him not only winning 6 AO, he took 3 in a row (an Open rec.)! Both Nole & Rafa work a lot harder to win their matches & nearing the end of the season, most top players w/b run down; hence being vuln. @ the USO! Nadal's Summers & Falls have been dismal over the yrs w/ only glimpses of brilliance! He's still quite vuln.; more so than NOLE who's had his fair share of great "finishing kicks" w/ wins in Shanghai, Paris, Beijing, & of course owning sev. YEC's that Rafa hasn't had a sniff!
***And that's why to me Djoko is the best player. He's had to earn his victories; & work a lot harder than his counterparts. His titles were not gifted to him. He didn't luck out. He had to sweat it. Proof by #'s:
- Titles won W/O BEATING A SINGLE TOP 8 PLAYER:
Fed: 32 out of 98 (= 32.6 %)
Nadal: 26 out of 79 (= 45.5 %)
Djoko: 12 out of 69 (= 17.3 %)
- Titles won after beating 1 or more top 2 player:
Djokovic: 30 out of 69 (= 43.4 %)
Nadal: 23 out of 79 (= 29.1 %)
Fed: 23 out of 98 (= 23.4 %)
- Titles won after beating 1 or more top 4 player:
Djokovic: 40 out of 69 (= 57.9 %)
Nadal: 38 out of 79 (= 48.1 %)
Fed: 36 out of 98 (= 36.7 %)
- Titles won after beating 1 or more top 5 player:
Djokovic: 46 out of 69 (= 66.6 %)
Nadal: 42 out of 79 (= 53.1 %)
Fed: 44 out of 98 (= 44.8 %)
Most wins over top 8 players by event (on way to title):
- Djokovic:
5: WTF '12
4: WTF '13, WTF '15
3: CANADA '07, AO '11, AO '12, AO '13, AO '15, AO '16, WTF '08, WTF '14, PARIS '13, PARIS '15, ROME '11, ROME '15 (15 total in 5 diff. events)
- Nadal:
3: IW '13, IW '09, RG '11, RG '14, M-C '08, ROME '12 (6 total in 4 diff. events)
- Fed:
5: WTF '03, WTF '06, WTF '10, WTF '11
4: WTF '04, WTF '07
3: USO '04, USO '07, MADRID '09, MADRID '12 (10 total in 3 diff. events)
Morality: Fedal had it easy. Djoko GOAT'd his titles. That's all.***
I always had a feeling Nole had to work harder to win his titles w/ Fedal in opp. among others! I'd almost gotten bored w/ the men for a while 10-15 yrs ago b/c it was routine for Roger to win almost all the big titles! Like today, I say he was playing hella well, but people really didn't rise to the occasion enough; sorta like Del Po in '09 in NY! It's the same kind of gutlessness I attach to an era of players who've allowed Nadal all those FO titles outside of Nole & Soderling efforts! Even Roger s/b ashamed of himself in that respect if he's the true GOAT! I guess I have to allow for the asst. of the homogenized courts, rackets w/ techno buttons running up the side, & conditioning superior to previous gens contributing to the >ness of Fedalovic! Even McEnroe & Connors were vulnerable on certain courts & events way back when! You really can't say that anymore w/ 3 str. players achieving a CGS very early; Nole w/ his Nole-Slam in '16!
***...it's not Fed's fault that the rest of the Big 4 weren't reaching the finals & he reached more finals than anyone else? What's the pt. of having >er % of GS's won in which you beat a member from the Big 4 if in fact you lost many X's to other players (non- Big 4)? - You have to beat whoever is in front of you, you have to beat the field, it's not just about beating the Big 4.
ReplyDelete...I disagree w/ Age/Diff. Era argument.
If one feels that he's not good enough @ a certain age to play tennis, then he should retire. Fed's faced Murray 25 X's, Nadal 38 X's & Djokovic 45 X's so one can't say that he's from a completely diff. era. He's good enough to win the last 5 meetings vs Nadal (last 4 since the start of '17 & last 3 which were str. sets), but still's way behind in career h2h: 15-23 vs Nadal. Federer's good enough @ the age of 35-36 to win Wimbl. '17 in str. sets & win AO '18 by losing only 2 sets (str. sets before the final), but not good enough to have a winning rec. vs either Nadal or Djokovic @ GS (or overall). This just shows that Age/Diff. era argument is fallacious & that Nadal & Djokovic are way above compared to the rest of comp. Fed has ever faced.
- Nadal, Djokovic & Murray have reached GS finals a decent # of X's - Nadal: 24, Djokovic: 22, Murray: 11.
- Fed H2H In GS (any stage):
vs Nadal: 3-9
vs Djokovic: 6-9
vs Murray: 5-1
Fed H2H in GS Finals:
vs Nadal: 3-6
vs Djokovic: 1-3
vs Murray: 3-0
One would also expect Fed to have a far >er winning % than Nadal & Djokovic; esp. considering that his peak yrs were '03-07 where he had to face weaker comp., but he doesn't.
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Since Nadal began his absolute peak & Fed completed the most dom. 5 yr. stretch in Open Era history, < than .8 of a % separates them.
Federer had more losses before hitting his stride than Djokovic & esp. Nadal. He going 51-50 in his 1st 101 matches from ages 17-19 had much more to do w/ their winning %'s being >er than weak opp. bumping up Fed’s #'s.
Since Fedal have both won their 1st slam ('03 Wimby & '05 FO), Fed’s winning %'s far >er. Heck, it’s >er since Nadal won his 1st.
Since they both won their 1st:
Fed, 960-152, 86.3%
Nadal, 815-153, 84.1%
Since Nadal won RG in ‘05:
Fed, 805-135: 85.6%
Nadal, 815-153, 84.1%
^Fed, fwiw, has 12 more matches played vs top 10 players in that X span, 9 more vs top 5 players.
Nadal & Djokovic have some arguments going for them in this debate. Winning % isn’t one of them, as it’s practically trivia. The diff. btw Fed & Nadal is explained quite neatly by their 1st 3 yrs on tour, when Fed went 50-51 & Nadal went 45-29. Remove 3 yrs where neither of them were = remotely close to being contenders...Fed jumps ahead, 84.7%-84.4%, w/ 250+ more match wins. Tell me: do those 3 early yrs really constitute a significant advantage?
Say Fed retires today & Nadal/Djokovic caught up to him in matches played, winning 80% of their matches en route. They’d end up w/ a lower winning %. But, could you fault them for winning 80% of their matches in their early-to-late 30s, surely notching slams along the way? I'm certain given the choice btw winning % & majors, they would choose the latter.
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Total ATP finals played:
Fed: 149 (30 GS finals)
Nadal: 115 (24 GS finals)
Djokovic: 100 (22 GS finals)
Murray: 67 (11 GS finals)
Also, it'd be very ignorant to ignore the age diff. among Fed & the rest of the Big 4.
5 & 6 yrs diff. can def. change things, both for >er & worse. As simple as that, Fed's peak was earlier than anyone else's from the Big 4 which's obvious b/c of the age diff., if you still think age doesn't play a role here, then check out Wimbl. '03, AO, USO & Wimbledon '04 to ask yourself why Djokovic & Murray DNP in those tourns.***
***I did a comp. for another thread of slams won beating highest ranked comp. & slams won beating lowest ranked: top 12 of slams won beating (most) highest ranked players on the way to title (since ATP started keeping track of ranking = early 80s)
ReplyDeleteAnd #1 is NOT one of the big 4-
1- WIM '91: STICH: 1-2-4 (= ranking of players he beat for title)
2- AO '12: DJOKOVIC: 2-4-5
3- USO '07: FEDERER: 3-4-5
4- RG '11: NADAL: 3-4-5
5- USO '85: LENDL: 1-4-6
6- AO '11: DJOKOVIC: 2-5-6
7- USO '90: SAMPRAS: 3-4-6
8- AO '13: DJOKOVIC: 3-5-6
9- AO '14: WAWRINKA: 1-2-7 (c/b permuted to #2 given he had to beat the top 2 players)
10- WIM '87: CASH: 1-3-7
11- AO '16: DJOKOVIC: 2-3-7
12- RG '84: LENDL: 1-4-7
Note that Djokovic gets listed 4 X's: undeniably, he's the player who had to deal w/ toughest/most consistent & comp. elite AND/OR most challenging draws, esp. @ AO. ...There's A LOT more diff. btw top players & the rest of the field- esp. in terms of stamina, resilience, & mental toughness- than there is btw let's say #60 & #90. So, no, gap in ranking is NOT "=") - No slam has been won beating players 1,2 & 3 but once, again Djokovic is the one who did it in a tier 1 event (CANADA Master '07).
***BO5 is almost a diff. sport to me; the one I prefer. Reducing the GS matches to BO3 w/b castration of men's tennis. I w/b all for introducing a 5th set TB though.***
...It would devalue the current major wins = more IMO! There's a reason Masters used t/b hard to win in previous eras! It's gone to BO3 in finals, which in turn allows the elites a >er chance of taking most of them! We've talked about the so called >ness of these "Big 4," but it's a combo of them being a lit'l >er than the rest & the accommodating of them w/ scheduling & shortening of matches to BO3 finals! I think if "play" were sped up a bit, results would change; more blowouts one way or making the er w/ the fans! Who cares about the pros being unhappy? They're being compensated hand over fist! Stop kvetchin' & looking for easier wins!
***Fully agree. I've more or < stopped caring about Masters over the yrs. Having watched Nalbandian-Fed in Shanghai '05 & Fedal in Rome '06, it just feels like Ramen noodles now.
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I actually like the current system. It makes the Slams stand out as more special & intense, & the shorter "samurai fight" style of the Masters provides their own kind of drama. That said, I could see changing the WTF to BO5. They'll never change the Slams to BO3, but that w/b a travesty if they did.***
I say the majors and Masters still don't get enough importance when it comes to pts! I'm still fuming over Novak dropping down to #2 @ the end of '16 owning 2 majors, 4 Masters, & was a finalist @ the USO & YEC! How does it happen = w/ run of pts Murray acquired @ 500's that this travesty occurred like '16 elections here in the States? It's historically mind-blowing IMO!
***ITA w/ this. Maybe make the WTF finals a BO5 again & also make all the Olympic matches BO5. That's the only changes I'd consider. I think keeping MS finals BO3 is ideal.***
***It's funny though, the guy has won Wimbl., he's in the finals here yet something is still lacking in his game. Is it mental? I'm not sure, but this is actually bad news for the comp. Were he to get it all together...***
ReplyDeleteI believe if Nole steals this title, he'll go into the USO & blow the field away! Tennis' like most anything is about confidence! No matter how skilled a person is, w/o confidence you just have good showings! Nole's been doing both for yrs, but if he has that confidence he had from 2 yrs ago, the field doesn't have a chance! He was embarrassing the best of them then; toying w/ Rafa by the X they played @ FO '15!
Nole finished Cilic off in style! I'm glad it went 3 sets; practice was had & it makes Roger get on the court later tonight since the other women's SF has to play out! Goffin's no slug & snuck up on Roger @ the YEC IIRC! W/ Nole & Murray out, you would think he'd take advantage, but was taken to the limit in RR play & eventually taken out by Goffin in the SF in 3!
***I'm aware of McFly's threat. Roger playing as he should take care of this tourney, this is fast HC's & he's still the best there is in these conditions. He needs this tourney too to show signs of life after that debacle of a grass season.***
Love the overconfidence; upsets occur w/ it all too often! I think I saw it just before Wimbl.
***It isn't overconfidence pal. Goffin's in w/ a shot, but he'll need help from Roger to beat him @ Cincy. I was actually the only one worried he'd lose @ Wimbl. to Anderson or Isner. When you see the crazy letdowns in big moments like the IW final, Halle & Wimbledon losses, they become very frequent occurrences w/ Fed. It was encouraging that he beat Stan in the type of match he has been losing since Rotterdam. Now let's see if he can follow it up w/ a couple more wins.
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I agree w/ the view that the tour--esp. Fedal--s/b concerned if Novak finds his best form. While we never really got to see prime Novak vs. prime Roger, prime Novak usually beats post-prime Fedal. And of course if Novak resurges, it may delay the ascendancy of Next-Gen to the top.
The USO ...a very important tournament that may really set the stage for the next yr. or 2 & >ly impact historical recs. For instance...
1. If Rafa wins it, he's only 2 behind Roger, w/b very hungry for his 2nd AO & potentially able to tie Roger @ RG next yr.
2. If Roger wins it, he prob. safely distances himself enough to hold the Slam lead & can put the cherry on top in AO or Wimbl. next yr.
3. If Novak wins it, it's one < op. for Fedal & all of a sudden he's only 3 behind Rafa &'s the fave to win AO, his best tournament.
4. If a Next Gen'r wins it, all of a sudden the door's blown open & anything could happen going forward.
5. If one of LostGe...oh, nevermind. But who knows...***
Not really! I said long before the tourn. that it w/b impossible for Roger to duplicate '17! He was fortunate to retake AO, but defending the Masters double in March was out of reach; getting to final of only 1 of them! I didn't think he was playing that hot by the X Wimbl. rolled around & I specifically said he was vulnerable to a big server like Isner, Raonic, or Anderson; actually using their names instead of their games!
***I was very worried about Anderson @ Wimbl. Roger just didn't have the "feel" he usually has when he wins a Slam. TBH, IDK how he won the 2018 AO...he was helped out by a weak draw & Cilic beating Rafa & being himself in the final. But I haven't seen the "great Fed" since Wimbl. a yr. ago except for a set here or there. If he doesn't find that form then he's not going to beat a resurgent Novak or a healthy Rafa. The age gap is = more noticeable now. 31 & 37 is quite a gap, athletically speaking.***
***...If Djokovic is playing well the only threat this whole tourney w/b Roger if the latter catches fire. Kyrgios is a threat vs Fed, but I don't see it vs Djoker on a slow/med. HC.***
ReplyDeleteAgain, this is hilarious b/c we keep calling these rivalries when they're far from it! Of Fedalovic, one player has owned another @ diff. X's & Nole has pretty much owned Roger since '11! Even though he's had chances w/ X MP's @ big moments like those USO SF's in '10 & '11, Cincy was the last tourn. Roger had some sort of advantage due to the court speed! Not = that saved him recently so IDK where he goes from here w/ us imagining him "getting revenge" by actually beating Nole in a major event!
***...Roger has always won slams by himself.***
Well there have been a few assists; a big one in '09 on clay IIRC!
***Using that reasoning, then everyone has received assists.***
Now you've flipped out! Stan's had a few wins, but for the most part Nole's owned him! One player has 3 majors & has struggled to win = a handful of matches from Fedalovic while another has 13 majors w/ a few of them going thru Stan!
***Stan plays Novak tough - there's no ?? about it. Not = close. ...And I think he took him out @ the '14 AO & '15 FO. Hardly a few wins!***
Murray's right there w/ his 3 major wins going thru Nole as well; does that elevate him to GOAT status? The reason I give Djokovic a brk is due to his near perfect rec. for some yrs & the comp. of Fedal looming from the beginning of his career! So what, Nole snapped & allowed 6 majors to slip thru his fingers w/ Andy & Stan, but I also take in consideration as 3rd banana to Fedal! He's had other rivalries w/ significant ownerships over Cilic, Berdych, & Del PO, but he's had some heart-wrenching losses to each; it happens! ...Nole's now acquired 13 majors, has set records NONE of these clowns will ever achieve, so I'll concentrate on the +'s for the X being! Taking another major @ Wimbl. & completing his Golden Masters @ Cincy this season was totally unexpected & you can't drag me down! I'm hopeful about his future success & keeping up w/ Fedal!
***ITA w/ you that Djokovic has dom. both Fedal the last few yrs b/c he has the game to beat them, & I'm not sure if there's any other player who can do that consistently. That is the beauty of tennis!
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I used to be a Djokovic fan, until he cheated on his wife; now I want him to win nothing ever again.***
Well it must really break your heart that Nole's not only been winning, he's rounded out his resume recently w/ a 4th Wimbl. crown & completed his Golden Masters by taking Cincy owning all 9 Masters 1000 events! Fedal's not = close & @ their age it's a Djokovic rec. that won't be broken anyX soon! What do you think of the Nole-Slam he finished off by winning the FO 2 yrs ago! It went downhill from there until he snuck thru the draw last month & captured his 13th Major! Watching Murray about t/b knocked out in the 2nd Rd by Verdasco that's schooling him @ the moment!
***Djokovic is an incredible tennis player. I don't take away from anything he achieves. And his Golden Masters is an amazing & historic achievement & worthy of huge praise. If he stays on track & doesn't go into another slump, he could = target 20+ Slams, the wks @ #1 rec., & other historic marks.
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...Djokovic again. Once in a gen. He turned pro 7 yrs after Fed, is 6 yrs younger, & only a yr. younger than Nadal. These 3 playing @ the same X just isn't supposed to happen. So of course it's going to make it nearly impossible for = incredibly talented teenager to break in. So it's a thing where, basing these new guys off of the "Big 4" or "Big 3" is ridiculous; esp. since they're still playing w/ all the other seasoned pros. It's just insane to wonder why these kids can't brk thru.***
***Novak's resurgence prob. protects Roger's Slam rec. I can't see Rafa winning another Slam or 2 w/ Novak around & m/b not = that. And yeah, by this X next yr. I think the Next-Gen'll brk thru either @ Wimbl. or the USO.***
ReplyDelete...Can you imagine another run to the FO like '15 Wimbl.-'16 FO; '18 Wimbl.-'19 FO? Is that asking for too much? I imagined & hoped for '15; '11 w/ a YEC!
***...That '15-16 rec. was considered all but impossible until 15 yrs back & nearly inconceivable before then; = for a player as well rounded as Djokovic. Nole's beginning to look formidable again.***
***Djoker won his 14th Slam under the radar. Most people get surprised when they hear how many he's won so far.***
It seemed like Nole was @ 8 majors & tied w/ Lendl just yesterday! It was so appropr.; both perennial #3's in the hearts & minds of all concerned, & while under the radar wound up surpassing the players the fans & ad guys loved so much! We thought he lost a season w/ that arm injury & figured he was no threat to Roger's 20+! Most probably thought Nadal would reign supreme in @ least The Masters events, but Nole's just 2 behind after winning Cincy last month completing his "Golden Masters!" ...I really wasn't sure he would come back @ all seeing as his ranking was going down precipitously & it didn't have anything to do w/ his taking X off! He was playing & losing; IIRC 6-6 until MC or Queens! I heard he's like 32-4 since! IMO, anything Nole wins is gravy now since most of us just never saw this turnaround!
***I believe Djoker whh a >er shot @ mastering all surfaces in Sampras’ era than Sampras would've today.***
As much as some loved to hawk how hard Sampras worked out & was so prepared; he was really a long, grueling pt. by anyone to take him out due to some condition having to do w/ blood oxygenation! It mhb something to do w/ his Greek heritage; ANYONE? Strange that Nole had to overcome some medical issues, adjusted his nutrition, & became as fit as possible! Nole would eat up the 90's while Sampras w/b lucky to win 1/2 the tourns. today w/ how homogenized the courts have gotten & how long some of the pts last! He needed that advantage of slick grass or fast HC! Nole had plenty of trouble trying to win Cincy b/c it was so quick while Fed had hogged 7 titles, but he actually got >er in his old age & finally took one last month! ...Wouldn't it be hilarious in 20 yrs some kid's just been born today who'll obliterate FEDALOVICS' recs? Not likely!
***...Yeah Nole's the one w/ the momentum now. And being the youngest of Fedalovic, he'll have more chances as well going forward.***
I've been not so quietly hinting @ a 2nd Nole-Slam saying "who else is favored to win 'down under' but Djokovic?!" No one owns it like him = though Fed snuck the last 2 while Nole still not Nole! Back in '15 I was hoping for another '11 w/ +ed sweetener of a YEC! We not only got that, but another Masters setting recs that may never be broken; 6 Masters, 8 finals, 3 majors, & a YEC! Not sure we'd jinx it just hoping to continue this magnificent run! Fedal have had theirs; Nole's turn to do something fantastic!
***Wouldn't quite predict him for another Nole-Slam, but yeah he'll start as the fave or co-fave @ all slams next yr. As for Masters, he w/b >er off skipping a few. No need to play all. Focusing on Majors w/b or rather s/b his move going forward.***
***Imagine Nole winning one more RG & one more Cinci. What would his rec. look like = if he doesn't win anything else?***
ReplyDeleteI've said in the past, winning those 2 events once again will round out his career more than any other player in the history of the game! At this moment I believe him to have the most balanced results = over Fedal! They both have limitations which is why Fed is still trying so hard approaching 40! He has a rec. neither will touch!
***Djokovic just reached 1000 matches milestone by winning Zverev in Shanghai. It was his 827th win. Nadal had 822. Fed had 814.***
If you look @ the recordbk as much as I do, you'd find Fedalovic all over it; dom. in just about every category w/ their dom. of the last 10+ yrs! Nole's leading Fedal in many of the records; esp. sustained dom. of his rivals, wins over Top 10's, & consistency over all surfaces!
***If Nole can end the yr. #1, he can really pile on the wks until the grass season comes along. A strong lead could make him very difficult to topple for the lions share in '19 then. That'll increase the gap btw him & Nadal & decrease it w/ Fed.
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Given all of Fedalovicray has played 13+ yrs each on tour, w/b cool to see win/loss recs of each of their 'best cons. 416 wks (=8yrs), & 520 wks (=10yrs). This allows each to skip a 3-5 yrs+ bad patch, i.e. early/late (or combo) career hiccups.
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Finals vs Big 4:
Djokovic 38-24
Nadal 25-27
Federer 21-34
Djokovic is the best & he had the toughest comp.
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...Djoker losing the FO twice in a yr. when he won the others. This is only close to the CYGS "in retrospect." Getting close to the CYGS is winning them all in order. Some Novak fans tried to argue that Djokovic was closer than Serena since he'd made the final @ the FO & won the other 3, but that doesn't @ all take into acct. the pressure."***
Only a truly delusional person would try to undermine the accomp. of winning 3 majors in a season twice! Seek serious fk'n help babe!
***I've never hesitated to state the level of Djoker has always been very high as compared to the field since '14. I just am not fascinated w/ his game, but there's no denying he's leaps & bounds beyond other players @ this X. You can't have 20 & 30 match win streaks just like that.***
They mentioned today something about Nole winning 30 sets in a row.
***He has been phenomenal. I so wish he had opps who could give a good fight = if they lose @ the end. However it's sad that none other than Fed has been able to win X matches vs Novak for a long X.
ReplyDelete---
Beyond his level of play that was excellent this wk. in Paris, the most + thing to me was the fact that Fed seemed extremely disappointed & bitter after his defeat yesterday to Nole. That's a very + sign.***
He s/b disappointed! He had opps & was playing very well; served out of his mind & never broken! It's hard to lose a match like that & not feel it later! I'm sure it's happened before, but OTTH the only other person I can recall that happening to in a meaningful match was Edberg back @ Wimbl. in '91! He & Becker owned the tournament & were on course to meet for the 4th str. yr. but for Michael Stich who's another great server! Stefan never lost his serve, but still lost in 4 sets dropping 3 TB's to his opp.! Stich went on to beat Boris the next day in strs.!
***I wonder what those same critics would say about Nole's comments on Fed's 'lucky' shots in this Paris match. Some of them WERE lucky. I guess it's only a bad comment if it comes from the one who lost.***
That's about it; the loser can't say that! It sounds like sour grapes, but as "lucky" as Nole's been, he's still beaten Fed in just about every major match since except '11 FO & '12 Wombl.! Fed's gotten crumbs from then on & has dumped all the important matches to Nole; = though the critics want to kvetch about his age (like the recordbks GAF)! I've been saying if he's too fk'n old, retire like other past greats! He obviously has had enough in him to win 3 more majors & some Masters events the last 2 seasons! People need to STFU & just let tennis history evolve; be a fan, & leave the -vity out of it! We're watching real history being made w/ recs that won't be =ed or surpassed anyX soon!
***If Djokovic wins '18 ATP Tour Final, is this season > Fed's '09?***
I have to give it to Nole b/c he came out of nowhere w/ a lost '17 barely registering in the rankings! He won the 2 biggest events & 3 Masters! He had all kinds of comp. where Nadal was on the shelf in '09 after his FO loss to Soderling! Fed barely squeaked to his Wimbl. win & admitted Andy choking that volley in the 2nd set TB saved his ass! There just wasn't much in his way thru his 2 big wins & then lost that USO to Del Po when up in the final! Since the summer, Nole's been almost unbeatable; Fed couldn't say the same for his '09 campaign!
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Not that I care too much, but we hear about players like Nole & Rafa taking credit for wins over "old man" Fed! Why isn't it ever brought up Fed may have taken advantage of them when they were rather YOUNG? Those 2 Wimbl. titles he got over Nadal w/b part of that list! W/o those, Rafa would really make him look like his pigeon! Nole was = a yr. younger before taking over their rivalry in '11 or so!
***I agree Nadal Wimbl. '06 wasn't exactly peak, but I think many Nadal fans on here would rank his '07 run highly, m/b 2nd best. Tbh, w/ regard to Novak, both he & Fed have won the matches they should've against each other w/ 2 exceptions. The problem w/ H2H is more of their matches have been played w/ Novak having the age advantage.***
***...Djoker losing the FO twice in a yr. when he won the others. This is only close to the CYGS "in retrospect." Getting close to the CYGS is winning them all in order. Some Novak fans tried to argue that Djokovic was closer than Serena since he'd made the final @ the FO & won the other 3, but that doesn't @ all take into acct. the pressure."***
ReplyDeleteOnly a truly delusional person would try to undermine the accomp. of winning 3 majors in a season twice! Seek serious fk'n help babe!
***I've never hesitated to state the level of Djoker has always been very high as compared to the field since '14. I just am not fascinated w/ his game, but there's no denying he's leaps & bounds beyond other players @ this X. You can't have 20 & 30 match win streaks just like that.***
They mentioned today something about Nole winning 30 sets in a row.
***He has been phenomenal. I so wish he had opps who could give a good fight = if they lose @ the end. However it's sad that none other than Fed has been able to win X matches vs Novak for a long X.
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Beyond his level of play that was excellent this wk. in Paris, the most + thing to me was the fact that Fed seemed extremely disappointed & bitter after his defeat yesterday to Nole. That's a very + sign.***
He s/b disappointed! He had opps & was playing very well; served out of his mind & never broken! It's hard to lose a match like that & not feel it later! I'm sure it's happened before, but OTTH the only other person I can recall that happening to in a meaningful match was Edberg back @ Wimbl. in '91! He & Becker owned the tournament & were on course to meet for the 4th str. yr. but for Michael Stich who's another great server! Stefan never lost his serve, but still lost in 4 sets dropping 3 TB's to his opp.! Stich went on to beat Boris the next day in strs.!
***I wonder what those same critics would say about Nole's comments on Fed's 'lucky' shots in this Paris match. Some of them WERE lucky. I guess it's only a bad comment if it comes from the one who lost.***
That's about it; the loser can't say that! It sounds like sour grapes, but as "lucky" as Nole's been, he's still beaten Fed in just about every major match since except '11 FO & '12 Wombl.! Fed's gotten crumbs from then on & has dumped all the important matches to Nole; = though the critics want to kvetch about his age (like the recordbks GAF)! I've been saying if he's too fk'n old, retire like other past greats! He obviously has had enough in him to win 3 more majors & some Masters events the last 2 seasons! People need to STFU & just let tennis history evolve; be a fan, & leave the -vity out of it! We're watching real history being made w/ recs that won't be =ed or surpassed anyX soon!
***Fed's an exception. And there lays the problem. At his age (33-37+), he shouldn't = BE in a position to challenge the world's best in his prime, but he does. He's too good. And @ his age, he shouln't be expected to win vs the world's best, but people are shocked when he doesn't win. Again, he's too good. And being the 2nd-3rd best since '14, there's no real justification to retire, esp. when Fed still loves it so. It's to Fed's credit that he's still that good @ an old age, but old is still old. People just need to stop 'expecting' a 33yo+ to beat a prime/peak ATG world #1, esp. not all the X. I mean = peak Rafa/Nole loses, yet people are shocked when post-prime Fed loses to prime/peak ATGs.***
***Djoker won his 14th Slam under the radar. Most people get surprised when they hear how many he won so far.***
ReplyDeleteIt seemed like Nole was @ 8 majors & tied w/ Lendl just yesterday! It was so appropr.; both perennial #3's ...! We thought Nole lost a season w/ that arm injury & figured he was no threat to Roger's 20+! There's no reason not to believe he's back & can get only >er to keep this ball rolling; m/b pad his resume w/ another Nole-Slam! ...I really wasn't sure he would come back @ all seeing as his ranking was going down precipitously & it didn't have anything to do w/ his taking X off! He was playing & losing; IIRC 6-6 until MC or Queens! I heard he's like 32-4 since! IMO, anything Nole wins is gravy now since most of us just never saw this turnaround!
***I believe Djoker whh a >er shot @ mastering all surfaces in Sampras’ era than Sampras would have today.***
...Strange that Nole had to overcome some medical issues, adjusted his nutrition, & became as fit as possible! Nole would eat up the 90's while Sampras w/b lucky to win 1/2 the tourns. today w/ how homogenized the courts have gotten & how long some of the pts last! He needed that advantage of slick grass or fast HC! Nole had plenty of trouble trying to win Cincy b/c it was so quick while Fed had hogged 7 titles, but he actually got >er in his old age & finally took one last month! What happened? We had anointed Sampras "The GOAT" just 15 yrs ago w/o = playing a FO final! It's making it easy to undermine it all now which is unfortunate! Wouldn't it be hilarious in 20 yrs some kid's just been born today who'll obliterate FEDALOVICS' recs? Not likely!
***...Yeah Nole's the one w/ the momentum now. And being the youngest of Fedalovic, he'll have more chances as well going forward.***
I've been not so quietly hinting @ a 2nd Nole-Slam saying "who else is favored to win 'down under' but Djokovic?!" No one owns it like him = though Fed snuck the last 2 while Nole still not Nole! Back in '15 I was hoping for another '11 w/ +ed sweetener of a YEC! We not only got that, but another Masters setting recs that may never be broken; 6 Masters, 8 finals, 3 majors, & a YEC! Not sure we'd jinx it just hoping to continue this magnificent run! Fedal have had theirs; Nole's turn to do something fantastic!
***Wouldn't quite predict him for another Nole-Slam, but yeah he'll start as the fave or co-fave @ all slams next yr. As for Masters, he w/b >er off skipping a few. No need to play all. Focusing on Majors w/b or rather s/b his move going forward.
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...Currently Roger has no real weakness. You can argue H2H w/ Nadal & lack of singles OG, but that's minor. Slam total is where it's at.***
We were about to anoint Djokovic "The GOAT" 2 yrs ago putting a streak together Roger only came close to @ the X! He was closer to Rafa & owning him w/ 2 "7 match winning streaks;" it was hard to avoid thinking about the possibilities! He was sev. majors behind both Fedal, but he was owning the tour like few others before him! He shot from 8 to 13 majors so quickly, it just seemed like just a matter of X! I'm getting that feeling again because I believe he'll outlast them & eventually surpass most of their recs!
***If Nole's able to win 6, let alone 7 more majors, hats off to him. The next gen won't stay worth< forever.***
We keep hoping, giving all kinds of "dap" to players like Dimitrov, Nishikori, Raonic, now Thiem, Zverev, Goffin, & Pouille! Vets have staved them off well, winning into their 30's; Cilic, Wawrinka, Del Po, & Anderson! You well know I've been begging for the "Next Gen" to take over & shake up the tour w/ some new blood! It's gotten old w/ Fedalovic winning most everything in sight; overcoming age, injury, & mental en nui after being on the tour up to 20 yrs!
***...Djokovic having a better serve and return than Nadal doesn't stop him from also controlling the baseline >er. If Nadal doesn't have the confidence to leave his BH corner position, he ends up having to run all around the court to keep up w/ Djokovic. He's been doing that since '11. B/c Djokovic's offence on the BH side is so much better, he doesn't HAVE to leave his FH open to attack so much. ...That along w/ the NCYGS is something neither Fed nor Nadal will ever have.***
ReplyDeleteNole's BH was the determinant shot on the court yesterday & set a tone early in the match "down under!" Nadal hasn't been able to deal w/ it for yrs; coming close, but only winning the cigar on clay! Not sure he can keep depending on that b/c this is turning into more a mental exercise over being physical! Rafa looked broken like @ no other X @ a major! Djokovic has annihilated Nadal indoors & on HC before; my fave ex. being '16 Doho where the Serb was "on" big X & "in the zone" making the Spaniard quite frustrated & going down in flames 1 & 2! The so called experts online are beginning to talk about it as well! I love it; finally Rafa getting some of his own medicine! "How ya like it Rafa?"
***FTR, I have Federer, Nadal, & Djoker all being >er than Sampras. But Sampras has a great argument for being >er than all 3 of these legends. I think that when the Big 3 hang up their rackets, they'll all be very close to each other for achievements & greatness. We might see each one receiving 33.33% of the votes for which one was the greatest of his era. Sampras was undoubtedly the greatest of his era. Nobody born from '61-80 is = in the same universe as Pete. Pete destroys everybody born during this 2 decade span in wks @ #1 & total slam titles. And that gives Sampras a somewhat valid claim to claim GOAT-ness. I would also add Borg to the mix as well.
Slam titles: 15-14 Djokovic
Overall titles: 73-64 Djokovic
YE #1: 6-5 Sampras
Wks @ #1: 286-236
Career winning %: .8278-.7744 Djokovic
Wins vs top 10: 198-124 Djokovic
It's Djokovic's consistency that has been so amazing. I've said all along that I give credit for a player going deep in slams.
Slam finals: 24-18 Djoker
Slam semis: 34-23 Djoker
Slam quarters: 43-29 Djoker
Cons. slam titles: 4-3 Djoker
Cons. slam finals: 6-3 Djoker
Cons. slam SF's: 14-3 Djoker
Cons. slam QF's: 28-10 Djoker
By the #'s, Djokovic beats Pete by quite a bit. But Pete dominated his era far more than the Big 3 dom. theirs.
And finally, it's someX's fun to think how a player would do when switching eras. I think that guys like Lendl got robbed being a strong baseline player stuck in an era that was much more beneficial to S and V players. How would Nadal & Djoker do in the 1980's surfaces with garbage rackets? How about Fed? How about Sampras today w/ the much slower conditions?
There are too many variables to know which player is the GOAT. Borg, Lendl, Sampras, the Big 3. These guys were all incredible. Laver's Open Era CS was insane. Rosewall being in the top 10 @ age 40 in the Open Era seems impossible.
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I don't think the comparison can be fairly made tbh. Sampras didn't have great longevity in comparison to today's era sure & could've perhaps tried to + to his major tally, but that's easy to say. Many people (if not all) in Sampras's position after the '02 USO would've done exactly what Sampras did. ...There isn't really a "wrong" answer here = though people's infatuation w/ the slam count & other arbitrary #'s might lead to a diff. overall conclusion.***
***Nah, Djokovic breaks a lot so his matches are easier.***
ReplyDelete...then has "walkabouts" dropping serve inexplicably! He's always been the most vulnerable of the "Big 3" dropping major finals to Wawrinka & Murray!
***Nole'll pass Fedal w/i 3 yrs.***
It has t/b now; just like winning that Wimbl. & USO last yr., he has to do it as soon as possible! This next crop will take over sooner or later!
***Don’t rule out Roger & Rafa yet. Rafa w/b ready to lose a limb to win RG this yr.***
But an upset has to occur sooner or later!
***NextGen is far more talented than LostGen. Not only are they more talented, but they'll be hitting their prime as Roger enters his late 30s & Novak/Rafa enter their mid-30s. Consider the ages they turn this yr:
Roger: 38 in Aug.
Rafa: 33 in June
Novak: 32 in May
...
24: Kyrgios
23: Coric, Khachanov, Medvedev
22: Zverev, Rublev, Fritz
21: Tiafoe, Tsitsipas
20: Shapovalov, De Minaur
These guys are just entering their primes. At the very least, it's going to get harder & harder for the Big 3 to win those Slams. They keep pushing things back, but I w/b very surprised if '19 wasn't the last yr. that they won the majority of Slams btw them. Mark my words: they'll win no > than 2 in '20.***
Winning 1 more FO w/b great, but I don't think Nole should push it! Too much success means he's on the court longer! That '15 set recs that w/b a while in breaking w/ 3 majors (w/ FO final), 6 Masters (2 other finals), & the YEC! I was surprised he was able to keep it going taking '16 AO & FO, but wasn't shocked he was finally done by the end of the season! He made the USO final w/ player after player WD or ret. in their matches to Nole! He had t/b mentally burned out as well as dead inside w/ all the work it takes to be #1! His '17 had to happen; '18 didn't, but he got it back! The older he gets, too much success takes away from the back end as far as I'm concerned! He can go all out to complete another Nole-Slam if he likes, but prob. should start taking it easy & skip a Masters or 2; esp. during the clay season!
***If Novak achieves the Double CGS
AND achieves the GS
AND leads the table for Major Titles
AND leads the table for most wks at ATP #1
AND leads the table for most ATP YE #1
AND retains his H2H leads vs Federer, Nadal & Murray
It w/b difficult to argue against him being the GOAT (Except for the fact that Laver w/ 2 GS'S is the GOAT of GOATS!)
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Here are the current odds for winning RG '19:
1. Rafa 1/1 (works out to 50%)
2. Novak 23/10 (works out to 30%)
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Expected odds t/b slightly more favorable to Novak after the beat down. Also the analysis on the boards here seem t/b that Nadal's not defending as well anymore & that’s an important part of his clay game.
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Not sure about Nadal not being able to defend well anymore. I also heard that Nadal looked edgy before the match vs Djokovic & Nole was fully aware of it.
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I think it was a more gen. observation over the past yr. or so. In the match however he didn’t = bother to track down shots I’ve seen him do for over a decade.***
Track down? There were sev. instances when Nadal didn't = move for a shot/winner hit by Nole! Rafa was "all at sea" Sunday!
***I think he was simply paralysed w/ fear. If you watched his USO matches vs Khachanov & Thiem, you would've seen how well he was defending. However, those 2 matches took a toll on him & he had to retire vs Del Potro. RG's his domain & he'll use every joule of energy to defend his title. He may give up on other tournaments, but not RG.***
Believe it or not, some "so called" experts think Nole's in Rafa's head & he was avoiding him in that USO final! As well as he was playing "down under," you'd think his confidence was back, but there was something in his eyes that told = the commentators something's up!
***As things stand, I feel 18 slams is very achievable for Djokovic w/ a decent chance for more.***
ReplyDeleteOur expectations for Nole were high due to levels of play for the last sev. yrs! ...Fedal had both gone thru down periods, but we thought NOLE was done! Fed came back past his prime closing in on 40 & Nadal keeps rising like a Phoenix X & X again = though I figured he'd been in the wheelchair race w/ Murray by now! Something's going on w/ him; continuing to hold off the Next-Gen so far, but has Fedovic in his head it seems! I couldn't be more thrilled w/ Djokovic taking these last 3 majors!
***...It's a joke that Murray gets Knighted for winning a Slam the other 3 have had more success @.***
Oh, no doubt Nole's coverage in the States is lacking! He's the Lendl of this era; more a 3rd wheel to the likes of Borg, Connors, & McEnroe! He beat his rivals, won 3 str. USO's of which Borg has none, has 3 FO's of which McEnroe & Connors have none, but the media coverage & ad $$'s continued to go to others = after all these yrs! The real rivalry was vs Djokovic who's come to surpass them both in their H2H stat &'s approaching fast in the 1st & last definitive decider of GOAT-dom w/ 15 majors & counting!
***...while I believe after retiring all of 3 Rafa & Novak will pass for GOAT implementing all of that statistics H-H, X interval, GS, Masters, ATP Fianls... and much more.***
IIRC, Nole was already thought t/b ahead of Fedal 2 yrs ago! He was doing things they hadn't w/ a Nole-Slam, leading in Masters 1000's, & pumping out rec. after rec. winning everything in site! His '15 w/b hard to beat; 3 majors, 6 Masters (8 finals), the YEC, & defeating 30+ top 10 players!
***You mean you thought that. Please don't assume that your views are in the consensus. For the record I've always thought that Novak like Roger has dominated the field in a consistent fashion. Kudos to him for that. But it remains a #'s game. He's not there yet, but for sure he could get there. If we make this a qualitative rather than quantitative exercise I have no problem with that. IMO, I have never seen tennis as beautiful as what I've seen from Fed. I haven't seen tennis played as uniquely & terrifyingly as Rafa. And I haven't seen tennis played as faultlessly as from Novak. Folks can talk about Laver if they want, but the reality is we all know given his size that he wouldn't have been up to it against these 3 titans. These are the ones. Take your pick!***
I said & meant "some" due to this & other sites coming to that consensus! People were overconfident in his move up while the Fedal fans were getting nervous! I said what I said!
***It s/b obvious that Novak does not, or really Never, needed Boris!***
The press & commentators gave Boris all kinds of credit = though laid up in hospital after an operation on himself! He was missing for months before Nole actually started his streak of winning in '14 w/ Wimbledon! Frankly some thought Boris would've been "out" if Nole hadn't won that title just then!
***I remember, during the broadcast of the Djokovic/Nadal SF match @ Wimbl. last yr., Boris was one of the commentator & he was talking how Novak "drove him nuts" w/ his habit of end< bouncing before the serve & how they tried everything to fix that overhead of his, but couldn't have any success. His tone was really, I wouldn't say disrespectful, but it wasn't respectful either. Like he was laughing @ him a bit. I mean, why would you say that during the live commenting? That's a private thing.***
***...Nole may have declined slightly, but I don't think '17 was b/c of age. He was injured & got surgery for it.***
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the same as in the past for any of the greats; too much success wears you down & they're likely to acquire an injury or just be bone tired! Mentally it's already a strain being #1, but expectations build up w/i & w/o! Making final after final has t/b traumatic to the mind & body! People don't realize, back in '15, = if Nole didn't win an event, he made the final so he never really got a break besides skipping 1 of the 9 Masters! He still made all 8 finals winning 6 which is a rec. that'll be hard to brk! He won 3 majors & was in the final of the FO dropping it to Stan! The same thing happened to Navratilova; winning almost became boring after 5 yrs of dom. & she lost her motivation for 2-3 yrs! It started in '87 when she didn't win anything until Wimbl. over Graf! Before that, she was going thru the motions & = a lead wasn't safe!
***Of course. At this pt. I think any further wins are gravy & don’t really care for the slam race. He´s won enough. But I think & hope he'll win a bit more.
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Watching Lendl & Nole exchanging few jokes on trophy ceremony of AO '19, couldn't help noticing that Novak was very + towards him & vice versa. Smile on Ivan's face, Novak also... in fact I don't think Novak had that kind of + interaction w/ anyone that evening.***
The laugh they shared btw them was commiseration to being thought of as the 3rd banana of their respective eras! Even though Lendl was more successful overall, people didn't warm up to him & only looked forward to contests w/ Connors & McEnroe! Today it's all about Fedal = w/ the rec. brking performances of Nole!
***People are really exaggerating Novak being unpopular! As far as this parallels go, yes I agree they are both unpopular, but compared to Lendl, Novak is Justin Bieber! And that says a lot! As unpopular as he is him & Lendl are nowhere nearly in the same ballpark! In the digital era of social media, WWW & advanced techs a lot has changed since 80's & = unpopular players receive more highlights & exposure by the media. So yeah, when comparing the players from current era & 80's, it's very important to take all the aforementioned factors into acct! And btw ending one's career with 8 GS's & breaking Sampras' rec. of 14 isn't the same thing! 8 GS's wasn't = a rec. for an Open Era when Lendl retired! It was still Borg's 11 & it wasn't surpassed until Sampras did it in the end of 90's! So yeah...not really the same thing!***
Sampras hadn't = started his run for Lendl to break! The GOLD standard was Borg @ 11 w/ 5 str. Wimbledons & 6 FO's! It was a diff. era before the >ness of Fedalovic was = thought of! No one thought anyone would come close to Pete's rec., but he lost it w/i 20 yrs by 3 players! There is no comparison to each era except how I describe people's perception of Fedal compared to Nole! It's quite reminiscent of how Lendl was treated like a redheaded stepchild when most people were still lauding the careers of Borg, McEnroe, & Connors!
***Peak Lendl vs peak Nole in AO, RG, USO, & WTF/YEC; who wins?***
Again, these are diff. eras w/ diff. tech, but if I had to choose, Lendl could still win the FO, & contest Wimbl., AO, & USO! The courts have become so homogenized I couldn't be sure, but if Djokovic had to go back to the 80's when grass was grass, Lendl would take it! He practiced hard, had Tony Roche as a coach, & came all so close to winning, but went down to the best who S & V'd; Edberg, Cash, McEnroe, & Becker! It wasn't like he was upset again & again in earlier Rds like Nadal so that's why I give Lendl a very good chance to compete vs Nole!
***...I didn't follow tennis before Nole won his 1st GS let alone knew what it was. ...I hope Nole'll top them all @ the end in GS count.
ReplyDelete---
Djokovic could earn yet another rec. @ this year’s IW. The World #1 is tied w/ Fed for most titles won at the ATP Masters 1000 event w/ 5, but another big fortnight in the desert could see him break his tie by claiming a 6th chp. Last yr., in his 1st tourn. back from elbow surgery, Djokovic bowed out in his opening Rd. to Japan's Taro Daniel. But the World #1 is in top form having won 45 of his past 49 matches, a stretch during which he has captured 5 tour-level titles ('18 Wimbl., Cinci., USO, Shanghai; '19 AO), & he w/b eager to + another trophy in IW.
1. '08: #3 Djokovic d. Mardy Fish 6-2, 5-7, 6-3
Two months after he clinched his 1st GS crown @ the AO, Djokovic continued to soar in the desert. He raced into the final w/o dropping a set & produced a nearly perfect performance to topple 2nd seed Nadal in the SF 6-3, 6-2, a rematch of the previous yr’s final. Fish was playing in only his 2nd ATP Masters 1000 final & his 1st in 5 yrs, but the American wasn’t awed by the occasion, pushing Djokovic to the brink. But 3rd-seeded Djokovic broke Fish in the 2nd game of the deciding set w/ a BH winner. The slight advantage was all Djokovic needed, & he clinched his 1st title at IW after Fish sent a BH long.
2. '11: #3 Djokovic d. #1 Rafael Nadal 4-6, 6-3, 6-2
Djokovic proved t/b untouchable @ the start of the tournament, dropping just 12 games to reach the SF. He then defeated 2nd seed Federer 6-3, 3-6, 6-2 in the last 4 to mark his 3rd victory over the Swiss star in 3 months. In the final vs Nadal, the Serbian overcame a slow start & poured it on @ the 1/2-way mark. Djokovic took 10 of the final 13 games for this 3rd IW title. The victory extended his unbeaten run that season to 20 matches & marked his 1st win vs Nadal in an ATP Tour final in 6 attempts.
3. '14: #3 Djokovic d. No. 7 Federer 3-6, 6-3, 7-6(3)
Djokovic didn't have it easy during his fortnight in the desert. The Serbian was pushed to 3 sets vs Alejandro Gonzalez (R3), Marin Cilic (R4), & John Isner (SF) en route to the chp. match. In an IW classic vs Fed, Djokovic fought back against inspired play from the Swiss in the early stages of their final. The Serbian served for the title @ 6-5 & was broken, but regrouped to win his 1st ATP Tour title of the season.
4. '15: #1 Djokovic d. #2 Federer 6-3, 6-7(5), 6-2
The defending champion that yr., Djokovic continued his IW dominance by powering into the final w/o losing a set. In the SFs, Djokovic dismantled 4th seed Andy Murray 6-3, 6-2. The win marked his 6th straight victory over the Brit, 5 of which had come in the previous 6 months. Fed had won 3 of his 4 most recent FedEx ATP H2H meetings w/ Djokovic going into the final, but had an off day & finished the afternoon w/ 43 UFEs. Djokovic sensed the opportunity & raced thru the last 4 games to successfully defend his chp. “I am @ the prime of my career,” said Djokovic afterwards. “I’m going to try to use every part of this fact to stay where I am & to fight for as many major titles as possible.”
The 2-X defending champ. got his title defence off to a shaky start when he dropped the 1st set of his opening-Rd match vs qualifier Bjorn Fratangelo. It w/b Djokovic's only hiccup for the rest of the tournament. Rounding into form w/ each match, the Serbian defeated 4th seed Nadal in the SF 7-6(5) 6-2. The match marked his 6th str. win over the Spaniard, all of which had come in str.-sets. Djokovic saved his best for last vs Raonic. He won the 1st 4 games of the match & finished w/ a 7-game run, dropping just 3 pts on serve in the 2nd set for his 5th IW title.***
Thx!
***The only reason why Nadal didn't dominate B2B seasons in '10-11 wasn't b/c his game needed a break, it's b/c he ran into Djokovic entering his peak. He was outplayed in '11, not health issues IMO.
ReplyDelete---
That's absol. correct, but it's more in line w/ something else. Strangely enough, Nadal isn't injured a lot when he lacks strong comp., so I think it took him a while to figure out that Novak is a different beast in '11. ...That impression is created by the unprecedented series that Djokovic had over him in the 1st 1/2 of the yr., but look @ some of the other tourneys:
AO'11 lost to Ferrer. Claimed "injury" -----> went on to win every match he played btw then & RG w/ the exception of the losses to Novak (4 X's)
Lost in the QF of Queens
Lost in the 1st match in Canada
Lost in QF in Cincy
Lost the final to Murray
Lost in the R16 in Shanghai
Lost twice & was elim. in the RR at the WTF
So, he peaked for the Spring Masters, before it was known the extent of the transformation w/ Djokovic (I think that there it started to become clear to him), then for the clay season (duh) where the extent of the damage became more apparent, but was still dampened by the unexpected loss of Djokovic to Fed & his usual triumph @ RG, & then gradually winded down peaking only for the 2 Majors & dumping almost everything else.
Rinse & repeat exactly the same thing for the 1st 1/2 of '12 w/ the exception of the 2 HC Masters where he lost to GOATing Fed & Murray, & after Wimbl. it was a 6 months layoff, after which he came back to pick up from where he left off. Quite the coincidences. W/ Nadal the saying that it hurts much more when he loses is so true it's not = funny.
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Djoker isn't lucky that he has avoided injuries for the most part. He earned it w/ his insane flexibility, extremely lightweight frame, & ult. prof'lism. I highly doubt that Djoker was playing squash.
Injuries & mono are no excuse for not winning more. Those things are mostly avoidable. Had Fed blown his knee for good in '16 & then retired, I still wouldn’t say that he was unlucky. I would be quite sad. But this whole luck thing is for the birds. Monica Seles was unlucky. Muster was unlucky, as was Kvitová. Fed wasn't unlucky. Besides, he's still pretty good @ 37 1/2.
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Nole may not surpass Fed in GS count. He may not = surpass Ralph in GS ct. But, he has a very high chance of surpassing Roger's ct. of wks @ #1 (surely >er chances than surpassing them on GS ct.).
The primary reason is that while Fedal are @ least trying to prevent Novak from surpassing them in the GS ct., neither Roger nor Ralph is focused on #1 ranking these days. I'm not saying they should, just stating as a matter of fact. So, essentially there's no real comp. for Novak w/ respect to the #1 ranking. Even if Novak doesn't win X slams, he still has >er chances of remaining #1 by winning many Masters, which he's fully capable of.
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Novak has a high probability of passing Roger's wks @ #1. He has to play well in the latter part of this yr. though, to defend his pts.***
But not having to defend many pts @ all this Spring will help keep him atop the men! It shouldn't take much to remain @ #1 for the foreseeable future!
***That means he has to dominate on clay b/c he lost early @ Indian Wells. If he plays well on clay, then he can remain #1 regardless of what happens this summer.***
***Moxie, I'm torn about Fiero's statement. On 1 hand I kind of agree w/ him in that I don't think Rafa can do much more on clay to improve his legacy. ...winning another RG or 2 doesn't change that. And just as I think another RG would improve Roger's or Novak's resumes more than any other Slam, so too do I think a non-clay Slam w/b >er for Rafa than another RG. But that's more of a subjective feeling than statistical analysis. In the end, a Slam's a Slam, & it isn't like Rafa was a slouch off clay.
ReplyDelete...Nadal's the best there ever was on his best surface - >er than Roger or Pete on grass, Novak or Roger on HC's, etc. And while I know fellow Fedsters like to downplay the '08 Wimbl. final, it was something for him to beat Roger in his own house - something Roger never did to him. At the very least it was symbolic of him surpassing Roger as the overall greatest in the game - something he did when Roger was still just shy of his 27th BD, not exactly an old man (otoh, Roger's dom. of Rafa in '17 earned some of that back).
As far as the "race for GOAT" that Fiero mentions, while I gen. prefer the "herd" approach, if we want to try to order them, Roger still has a solid edge over the other 2, although this is mainly due to longevity & accum. stats. If we cut his career off @ Rafa's age (almost 33) or Novak's (almost 32), their careers are similar:
Rafa (now): 17 Slams, 80 titles, 196 wks @ #1
Roger thru '14 (age 33, about Rafa's age): 17 Slams, 82 titles, 302 wks
Novak (now): 15 Slams, 73 titles, 248 wks @ #1
Roger thru '13 (age 32, about Novak's age): 17 Slams, 77 titles, 302 wks
...The 2 Roger lines are the =alent age of Rafa or Novak later this yr., not right now. But in the end, we don't know how much longer Rafa or Novak w/b able to perform @ an elite level, & thus whether they can come close to Roger's longevity.
...spinning a bit to downplay Novak's greatness. As I've pointed out before, Rafa was every bit as good in '11 as he had been in '10 vs every other player except Novak. In other words, the diff. btw prob. his best yr. ('10) & m/b his 4th or 5th or, @ worst, 6th best yr. ('11) is Novak reaching his prime. And don't forget that Rafa was as good as ever in '13 & Novak held his own vs him. In other words, '11-14 saw both in their peak forms, & Novak edged Rafa 12-7 during that X. We don't have a comparative "shared peak" overlap for Roger-Rafa or Roger-Novak.
I also think that Novak has a >er chance of catching & surpassing Roger than Rafa does in terms of major accomplishments. He has a good shot at 311+ wks @ #1, prob. an = shot at 21+ Slams & 102+ titles. ...I think we'll know a lot more in a yr., but it w/b 2-3 yrs before we have a more def. sense how the overall GOAT rankings will look. My guess, or m/b wishful thinking, is that Roger w/b able to lev. 1 more Slam & 10+ more titles to get #21 & 110+ titles. I think Rafa has another Slam or 2 in him & a handful more titles, but prob. fall short of 20 Slams & 100 titles. And Novak will have spells of dom. over the next 2 or 3 yrs, but they'll be shorter & fewer & farther btwn. Who knows what he'll end up w/, but I suspect 18-19 & 90+ titles, like Rafa, although I think he just sneaks past Roger for wks & #1.
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Good age comparison. Roger has the edge in all the categories. It also shows the main argument vs Rafa; his lack of ranking dom.***
***Federer-Djokovic Slam rivalry in the 2010s. - It's 8:2 Djokovic.
ReplyDelete'10 USO SF HC Djokovic d Federer 5-7 6-1 5-7 6-2 7-5
'11 AO SF HC Djokovic d Federer 7-6(3) 7-5 6-4
'11 FO - RG SF Clay Federer d Djokovic 7-6(5) 6-3 3-6 7-6(5)
'11 USO SF HC Djokovic d Federer 6-7(7) 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
'12 FO - RG SF Clay Djokovic d Federer 6-4 7-5 6-3
'12 Wimbl. SF Gr. Federer d Djokovic 6-3 3-6 6-4 6-3
'14 Wimbl. F Gr. Djokovic d Federer 6-7(7) 6-4 7-6(4) 5-7 6-4
'15 Wimbl. F Gr. Djokovic d Federer 7-6(1) 6-7(10) 6-4 6-3
'15 USO F HC Djokovic d Federer 6-4 5-7 6-4 6-4
'16 AO SF HC Djokovic d Federer 6-1 6-2 3-6 6-3
But 3 more slams left t/b played.
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Fed's ranking in his Slam losses vs Djokovic: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4 (avg. 2.44)
Djokovic's ranking in his Slam losses vs Fed: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 15 (avg. 4.67)
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Yes, Fed was close to his peak = in his 30s, that's why the age excuse in the h2h is weak. - The Fed/Djokovic rivalry follows completely the usual pattern btw ATGs w/ 6 yr. age diff. First the older doms the er ranking of Fed during their matches c/b explained by the weaker field. Djokovic & Fed only faced twice in '06 & starting in '07, Nole was already quite comp. so it isn't that Fed scored wins vs some Baby Nole.
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Fed's 6 yo'r than Nole, right? So '04 - '09 = '10 - '15.
- Novak-Fed '10-15 = 7-2 (Novak ages 22-27, Fed ages 28 - 33)
- Novak-Fed '04-09 = 1-4 (Novak ages 16-21, Fed ages 22 - 27)
Honestly, not that much diff., & if you ask me, I think it's a lot harder for a younger (teenage) player to muscle out an ATG in his prime yrs than it is for a slightly aging tennis player to hang in there w/ an ATG in his prime yrs.
16 compared to 22 isn't = fair.
19-25 is still quite an uphill battle for the teen.
21-27 starts becoming fair ('09)
24-30 stops being fair ('12)
26-32 is an uphill battle for the grandpa.
29-35 isn't fair anymore.
So let's go w/ '09-12.
Djokovic - Fed: 4-3 Djokovic. Almost dead =. Stop w/ all your geriatric talk. They met 7 X's in a fair per. (21-24 vs 27-30).
Hell, if you disagree, you can extend it to '08-12: 5-4 Nole. (20-24 vs 26-30).
'08-13: 5-4 Nole. (20-25 vs 26-31).
'07-12: 6-5 Fed. (19-24 vs 25-30).
No matter what "fair" metric you use for their ages, the slam meetings have them almost dead =. Everyone should see that.***
***Djokovic has a game that is close to perfection. He has 1 of the best BHs in the game, ever, & a great FH, but it's based on stepping in, taking the ball early, changing directions, employing a 'death by a 1000 cuts' tactic to dismember opps. The usual Djoker pt. is to hit deep, make opps move, wait for a short ball, & go for winners.
ReplyDelete---
A fairly good characterization of Novak's game. I agree w/ it mostly. ...I enjoy watching Rafa's matches more than Novak's (but am not a fan of either).***
...Rafa taking full advantage of the tech. isn't enough for this joker, he has to run "game" on his opp., stall, & challenge every call as if "it is not possible I miss!" Nole c/b robotic out there, but when "he's on," it's very entertaining! I can watch that AO Final over & over! Love seeing Rafa totally @ sea & unable to = compete though playing quite well! ...Nadal was playing well enough; just couldn't hang w/ the #1 player & has only defeated him on clay the last 5-6 yrs!
***...It shows how important that epic SF was last yr. Such small margins decided that match & if Nadal had won he'd've ATG @ Wimbl. secured for me.
I still think Rafa has a chance to get another over the next 2 yrs. ...Give Novak the tough QF vs Del Potro last yr. & that SF chb completely diff. Nadal had a tough route.***
...Djokovic also has far fewer upsets like Rafa vs the likes of Rosol & Darcis! Rafa owns The FO! His fans s/b quite satisfied w/ that instead of manufacturing >ness w/ just 2 titles @ a major! I love Edberg, but I couldn't put him up there w/ the greats just b/c he has 2 titles @ 3 of the majors! Even you won't give it up to Murray w/ his 2 champs.! Rafa dropping that SF last season @ SW19 really cost him! No doubt he prob. would've found a way to overcome Anderson = though Roger went out to him! No doubt Rafa w/b dangerous for the next 2 yrs, but he's come back a bit = w/ that FO win! By dropping 2 or 3 of his warm-ups; esp. 2 in Spain alone had to shake his fans! I think Fedovic have acquitted themselves well on the surface & if not for 1 player, they prob. would've X titles! All players have that foil! At the USO Borg never overcame Connors = on his fave surface of clay; though Har-Tru! Laver dropped cons. WCT Champs. to Rosewall! ...Rafa was the Chris Evert-Lloyd =lent! If he hangs on much longer, He'll go out like her too & it'll be real embarrassing!
***...Novak won the game & has 4 titles to Nadal’s 2 so no debate. As a Fed fan I’m just happy he has ATG status @ 3 slams w/ no debate whatsoever. One of his >est achievements! - Good argument to say Fed's ATG on clay, so Djokovic is. LMAO
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How's it wrong? I'm only saying my perception (maybe false) was most here viewed Fed an ATG on clay. Djokovic is @ least on Fed's level on clay, & in fact on paper is prob. slightly >er, & most people prob. do rank Djokovic slightly >er on an all X list on clay than Fed @ this pt. So by that logic, @ least if you're one of those who does consider Fed an ATG on clay, it wouldnt make sense to not also regard Djokovic as one.
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I don’t see much diff. btw Djokovic & Fed. The way their game styles are, I’d take Fed peak for peak (due to the FH & variety), but Djoker has done a bit >er vs Nadal & @ Masters due to having a weaker Nadal IMO in '14-16. Both below Nadal, Borg, Lendl, Wilander, & Kuerten. So 6th/7th; you could call that ATG.***
...NOVAK would have to have a monumental collapse to allow a player of Goffin's skill level to beat him! I feel the same about RBA who's had some success vs Nole! Those were BO3 @ smaller events, not a major w/ BO5! Just being realistic & no one shb surprised by this result! I'd of been more shocked if a set was gotten to begin w/; SORRY!
ReplyDelete***Wimbl. will put Djokovic/RBA on court 1st on Fri. So Fedal will know for a fact they have to play Djokovic by the X they play each other. That '17 AO match is the only BO5 they've played that Fed could've won since the '14 AO that Rafa won in strs. & the '12 AO that Rafa won in 4 sets. Obviously the RG match last month is irrelevant. The 3 str. sets wins over Rafa on hard HC over the last 2 yrs says a lot. But Rafa w/b ready. Rafa has looked great. And Rafa's prob. fresher than Fed simply b/c of his age. So I'm not big on Fed's chances come Thurs. I think we officially have to say he's the underdog. Obviously he's got close to a 50/50 chance of winning it. ...If Fed wins one of the 1st 2 sets & = if it goes 5, I like his chances. But Rafa is the fave. And then of course there w/b Djokovic waiting in the wings for Sun. Neither's guaranteed to come out of this tourn. a slam richer. - I'm sure Rafa's fans will defend that gamesmanship @ the end vs Roger. Nothing will top the piss break before Roger served for it at IW though.***
It's one of the reasons I've never cared for Rafa = when he was a pup of 15! His tact< gamesmanship obviously was coached/taught by Uncle Tony so I have a prob. w/ the entire family! There's a sense of entitlement w/ these jerks that's been there from the start! The entire entourage ooze contempt for the system & feel justified in doing anything to win! The toweling off, challenging of every call, & Rafa shifting his junk in his underwear has truly gotten OLD! He obviously does need to resort to such tactics @Murat Baslamisli so we shouldn't be surprised he'll end his career on that embarrassing note of gamesmanship! It's inevitable!
***...I have criticized the rest of the tour, esp. the next gens for letting the 'Big 3' continue to win all the big events.***
I've beaten this topic to death here & on my blog! It's been unprecedented dom. by a BIG 3 that's never been seen in the Open Era! They're not only winning all the majors, they're displacing "Next Gen" players in the SF's X & X again! I've lambasted very good players who've underachieved & have broken down physically as well as mentally; Grigor, Kei, Milos, Sascha Z., Thiem, & Medvedev! They all have the skills to win, but when they get close, it's "choke city!" Nole being the most vulnerable, he has lost to "NG'rs" like Zverev, Thiem, Khachanov, & Tsitsipas! I look forward to them showing what they can do when Fedalovic finally step down! Unfortunately for them, they aren't giving them any reason to drop out when they've won the last 11 majors! That is too pathetic for words; the tour just fodder for these 3 great players!
***This is a prob. for all 3 granddaddies (Djokovic, Fed, & Nadal) as they have & continue to rule over 2+ gens--the majority were/are untalented, heart< losers, so any criticism that applies to Djokovic applies to Fedal.
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Djokovic was the >er player in the Wimbl. final. He basically gifted Fed 2 sets! Went away & took a brk. When he was in lock-down mode, Fed couldn’t beat him.
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Novak - KING OF GRASS... beat Federer @ his best & Djokovic went away for 2 sets. Fed could only take sets off when Djokovic stopped playing for 2 sets. Djokovic is KING.***
This is going to haunt Roger for a while; dropping this match w/ 2 MP's serving! Wow; how many X's has he done this now to him?
It was remarkable that Nole took his turn in coming back strong & retaking the #1 ranking in '18! He has a legit. chance to overtake both Fedal since he has so many more yrs left in him! He's bound to snag @ least 1 major for the next sev. yrs; maybe 2!
ReplyDelete***...Novak clearly had upperhand from basline, w/ Roger on the serve.
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...Last set was tension from the start, it was hard watching... High quality, Novak broke 1st, Fed broke back. Then Fed broke, served for a Wmbl. title. One pt. Fed missed a FH, next Novak came up w/ passing shot, Novak could've easily choked & missed it. Kudos to him. Novak faced BP's later, prevented Fed from brk'n. 12-12, Novak handled nerves >er.
...Overall, Novak had control of the baseline by using a consistent attack, Fed looked like he was always defending vs Novak, but @ X's did attack. Fed used good tactics throughout, he served well, used slice intelligently, came to net. His only issue was staying w/ Novak during rallies, Novak had upperhand. Fed played >er tennis throughout the match, but he just couldn't manage nerves > Novak in those TB's.***
I still can't re-watch any of those finals Murray & Wawrinka won over Nole! Those were somewhat missed opps., but they did play well!
***Roger has been worse as far as that's concerned. And he's retardedly easy to beat on his home turf. Yeah, the joke Wimbl. surface hurts him, but 8-4 is ridiculous.
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Thing is Nadal peaked young, in '05. Djokovic broke thru in '08, but then kind of faded away for 3 more yrs & really came thru in ‘11. Despite the age gap, Nadal’s peak falls in btw Fed & Novak. I'd put Roger’s peak as '03-07 (maybe longer to '09, but obfuscated by rise of Nadal) Nadal's as '07-13, & Djokovic '11-16. Nadal was burned out on injuries & done off clay after the '14 AO.
...But for Magnus Norman rebooting Wawrinka’s brain, Djokovic would've had a nearly uncontested era of dom. from someone who broke thru after him, & = then Wawa's older than him & faded 1st. Djokovic has been fortunate, but the bigger prob. is why has there been a 10 yr. talent void?
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Roddick's serve didn't have Isner or Sampras movements. Roger has all the serves. ...ask Fiero. - I still personally think Djokovic will not pass Fed just b/c the amt. of mental pressure to win 5 more slams @ 32 & older.***
Both Fed & Nole have won 4 majors after their 32nd BD! Advan. Nole since it took Fed to 37 to get there!
***Actually, Fed has won 3 majors after his 32nd BD & this is Djokovic's 1st major after his 32nd BD the same # as Nadal.***
I was giving Fed credit for that Wimbl. in '12! He was prob. "almost" there @ 32!
***...The GOAT race's ONLY btw Bull & Fed.
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Nonsense. Djokovic defeated Fed b/c he has the game to do so. This is nothing new btw those 2. If anyone were to make the "this slam does not ct." argument, it w/b best founded on the idea that 3 granddaddies dom. 2+ gens of losers who show up to collect checks, & have no talent, heart, or anything else to do their job. A tour can't rest on 3 people. - This loss is purely b/c Fed didn't have the belief deep w/i him that he can actually beat Novak.
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THIS IS THE GREATNESS of Novak Djokovic! T/b able to defeat the supposed GOAT & 8 X Wimbl. Champ @ his best when he (Djokovic) is below his best. Novak will surpass all recs & own Fedal h2h. He has toppled Fed 3 X's in Wimbl. finals & beaten Nadal @ RG. He's on his way to being undisputed GOAT.***
When Nole plays this kind of lockdown tennis just hoping to outlast an opp., it's what's cost him more than a few X's when players not of his caliber can hit him off the court! Del Po, Murray, & Wawrinka have snuck up on him in major moments of a tourney & the Olympics! It wasn't b/c he was playing poorly, but they refused to miss & he got frustrated! Nole definitely wasn't @ his best yesterday = though he won! Roger won more pts & wasn't really in danger of being passed @ the net! If anything Roger shh this match sewn up in 4 but for those UFE's in all 3 TB's!
ReplyDelete***Djokovic truly showed his greatness; this match was big. Fed was playing extremely well, Djokovic was not. Novak was able to stay w/ Fed, take him to breakers & then played >er in the >er pts. 0 UFEs in 3 TB's? That's ridiculous!
To steal a Wimbl. title from the 8 X Champion like this is GREATNESS. He has now beaten Fed 3 X's in a row in Wimbl. final. NO-ONE ELSE COULD EVEN DREAM OF DOING THIS - Murray, Nadal, NO-ONE! Only Novak could do this. He's beaten Rafa on clay more than anyone else. He has won 4 slams in row, all 9 Masters. He's the GOAT in the making.
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Now Nole has 5 Wimbl. Most of you would prob. rate him behind Fed & Sampras, but what about Borg?***
Even if Nole wins more, Borg will continue being a Wimbl. legend! He's set apart due to not only winning 5 in a row, he played w/ a wood racket, wasn't a real S/V'r, & played on old, choppy, slick grass! He only had a wk. to prepare for grass! He made 6 str. finals just like Fed & lost it in the end, but Roger fortunate enough to hang on & win 3 more past his prime!
***(=ting "grass" w/ Wimbl.), I'd put him just behind Borg...@ least for now. Borg's 5 in a row, & 6 str. finals stands out a lit'l more. Now, if Novak does take a 6th Wimbl., I'd prob. put him just ahead of Borg. He'll have carved out 6 Chps in the Fed era (along w/ Murray & Rafa) although Borg had Jimmy & Mac. Novak, if he wins another, will have also made the QF 12 X's, 10 SF's, 7 Finals, & 6 wins. Not too shabby!
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Man a lot of people are in their feelings over an outcome that isn’t going to change. Djokovic is still going t/b the winner. Federer let Djokovic get by on avg. play @ the end of the day. - Part of what makes this Wimbl. trophy for Novak = > special is b/c he won it ugly. The whole match was mostly about handling the pressure. No one went all in @ any per. in the match. It was much diff. to let's say AO '12 Nadal-Novak. There were periods in that match when they just played w/ nothing to lose approach. ...I still can't believe that Novak did it thru 3 TBs vs Fed. Unreal victory.***
Fed still hung back too much! I see this as the reason he loses to Nadovic; thinking he can tame and defend from the baseline! He's been able to accomplish it a few X's, but mostly it's a colossal failure w/ him dropping matches to them w/ a pt. or 2 to win! It was impressive how both Fedovic were whacking the ball from the 1st rally of the match! I personally whh Roger come in a bit more; Nole not passing that well! He had 2 near the end, but that was happenstance w/ Roger coming into the net more on a bluff! Roger volleys exceptionally well, but drags matches out w/ >er players by not attacking as much as he could! There are enough short balls to pound into a corner to approach the forecourt w/ impunity on grass; = now! If passed, you say "good shot," but continue to apply pressure! Stan & Murray did it their way, but their groundies were consistent enough for them to just outlast Nole a handful of X's in those major finals lost to them!
***Yes Fiero, I’m absolutely w/ you. Always fighting vs all of them, & still has to, no matter what he did for this sport. He’s always the Fk'n Serb, from an unknown 3rd world country, who didn’t deserve this success & place in this sport.
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Djokovic isn't as quick & agile as he used t/b. His returns aren't anywhere as sharp & he pulls off return ace winners on rare occassions these days. His BP conversion suffered a lot compared to his hay days!***
...How can Nole be "well past his prime?" He still gets to dropshots most players wouldn't = attempt to get to! He not only gets there, he angles off winners totally in control! As for his BP conversion; that's always been poor as well! He can have his opp. surrounded by BP's, but many X's he allows them to escape! He wins eventually due to being such a great returner keeping pressure on the best servers in the game! This is his "hay day!"
***H2H:
- Djokovic & Fed have played 48 X's to date.
•All matches: Djokovic, 26–22◦GS matches: Djokovic, 10–6
◦ATP WTF's matches: Djokovic, 3–2
◦ATP World Tour Masters matches: Djokovic, 11–9
◦BO3 set matches: Djokovic, 16–15
◦BO5 set matches: Djokovic, 10–7
◦Matches lasting 5 sets: Djokovic, 4–0
◦Winning the match after losing 1st set: Djokovic, 7–1
•All Finals: Djokovic, 13–6◦GS Finals: Djokovic, 4–1
◦ATP WTF's Finals: Djokovic, 2–0
◦ATP World Tour Masters Finals: Djokovic, 5–3
◦ATP World Tour 500 series finals: Tied, 2–2
•All sets: Fed, 72–70◦Deciding sets: Djokovic, 14–5
•TB sets: Djokovic, 15–12◦Deciding TB's: Djokovic, 4–0
Results on each court surface
•Clay courts: Tied, 4–4
•HC's: Djokovic, 19–17 ◦Outdoor: Tied, 13–13
◦Indoor: Djokovic, 6–4
•Grass courts: Djokovic, 3–1
So they are tied on clay & outdoor HC's. Novak only leads on indoor Hard & grass courts. Who would've thought?
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...If Djokovic can avoid injuries, I think he'll have no issues w/ motivation, fitness & priorities. I can't see how he doesn't win @ least 4 > slams. Injuries can come out of nowhere, Nadal has lost a couple of years due to them & Novak lost ops to win a few slams around '16-18 due to injuries. It is likely, Nadal & Novak will run into injuries in next few years. Rafa dom. - '08, '10, '13, & '17. He disappeared due to injury in '09, around '14-15, & took some X off last yr. Djokovic dom. in '11, slowed down btw '12-14, dom. around '15-16, suffered injury & went MIA for 2 yrs & then has dom. for about a yr. They haven't been able to maintain this type of level for > than 1-2 yrs, in spurts. This means, if history repeats itself, Novak'll slump next yr.
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Interesting coincidence - @ this moment, Djokovic is 28 match wins from Match Win Leader @ Aussie Open, Wimbl., and US Open
AO - Djokovic - 68, Federer - 97
Wimbl. - Djokovic - 72, Fed - 101
USO - Djokovic - 69, Connors - 98
Man, he's got that many < matches, but has been able to sustain a 9-5 H2H match rec. in those specific slams vs Fed? Pretty incredible.
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...I think that's going on right now.***
That kind of commentary is just hilarious! Truly, what is he doing now? Djokovic has only won 4 of the last 5 majors! He's been snagging them like this in chunks all decade! What's the surprise if he actually does get w/i sniffing distance of the "major rec.?" I certainly won't be one of them!
***Djokovic fans who are confident he will brk the slam rec. are waiting for it to happen before they call him the GOAT.***
ReplyDeleteConfidence has lit'l to do w/ it; it's about what he's doing & how fast it's occurring! Nole had a bad patch where most thought he was done! That comeback last season was > Fedal's which was also miraculous! We thought he was out of the running for Goat-dom until he's now won 4 of the last 5 majors! Fedal s/b afraid of being eclipsed! Only X'll tell! I've already placed Nole above Nadal due to his limited Goat resume being only on clay! Borg outdid him in so many ways; culm. in taking 5 str. Wimbl.! Nadal can barely make a SF on the slow stuff they've laid down when Borg had to deal w/ quick, un= grass w/ bounces as unpredictable as a ft-ball!
***Fed had knee surgery, hadn't won a slam or was ranked #1 since '12, then won '17 AO, '17 Wimbl., '18 AO, & retained the #1 ranking. Nole's "comeback" was not > that.***
W/ no support from the fans & media, it was quite a comeback for Mr. Djokovic! Nole had his surgery too! What you described is the reason I wondered why Roger hung on til now; going 5+ yrs since his last major win & had 2 players kickin' his ass all thru that X! I understand where you're coming from, but'll still go w/ Nole's comeback being more miraculous! Fed's return to the top only told me he had lost most of his comp. due to injury & retirement!
***How much chance do you give Djokovic to exceed Fed's 20 rec.? It seems that the rec. of more wks as the #1 is about to fall in favor of the Serb.
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He’s the ult. pro that also happens t/b incredibly clutch. He has the perfect build & workout routine to stay healthy for a long X. He'll slow down, but he'll clutch out a few wins vs the younger guys when they battle him tough in a few yrs.
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But you must remember that he's already over 32 yo & having to win @ least 5 Majors, = w/ the current quality of young rivals, will not be easy @ all. We'll see if he maintains a tremendous concentration in achieving his goals in the med. & long term.***
I can't imagine Nole not winning @ least 1 major for the next few yrs; stretching to 2 in the immed. future! He may or may not get there, but this past yr. put Djokovic in a great pos. to overtake Fedal!
***I'll continue to "hold" Fed over Djokovic until he narrows more gaps. It becomes very tricky weighing 2 careers vs each other when there's such a large gap in age; 6 yrs' still huge in tennis. ...One career peaking before '08 & actually declining statisically before somewhere in '07. We can debate why, but for me that's the main pt. in Fed's career. ...Djokovic gets huge pts for playing Fed so closely when he was still quite young. As for his pre-'11 rec. vs Fed, I don't pay it much attn. 2010 was a weak yr. so he gets extra credit for knocking him out @ the AO that yr.
...I don't think Djokovic outplaying an over age 30 Fed counts vs Fed & I do think Djokovic has had pretty much a free ride outside of the Big 3 since he himself turned 30. I throw out '17 when he actually was 30 w/ injuries, but in '18 & '19 he's been mostly unchallenged. That's not his fault, but he's cleaning up right now.
At the moment, OTTH, Djokovic seems t/b faring >er over the age of 30 then Fed did, but I can't ignore the fact that there's NO ONE younger challenging him other than Zverev in the last WTF. If he continues getting more majors, 1 after the other, for me he's the better player when he ties Fed on majors & m/b = a bit lower b/c of all his other recs. But 1st he has to get there. That's the only thing I'm arguing about. He still has 4 more to go, & he was 2 MP's away from 21/15 in a yr. when his older rival was almost 38. So if you want to proclaim him the >er player, please wait until he has earned it.***
He's going to prob. hold onto the top ranking thru next season & in the top 10 for 5 > yrs @ least! All those recs of Fedal will prob. fall by the wayside before the ink is dry on the rec.-bks!
ReplyDelete***Let's face it, Nole's past his "prime," though he does seem t/b finding his best form again, & w/ not so very much comp. in sight. I thought the youngsters were going t/b showing more spunk than they have so far this yr. Next 2 yrs s/b another story though. But, sure, no reason to think that Novak won't be in good shape & good form for another 5 yrs.
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We keep saying the top 3 dominance can’t last forever, but I’m unequivocally stating that someone else will crack into the top spot by the X Rafa or Novak hit 40. I mean it has to happen someX.
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Djokovic isn't winning 7 more slams. It's easy for people to think these top guys are still in their primes in their early 30's, but that isn't the case. They can still play great tennis, win some big titles, & ability-wise they're still way above the youngsters. But this next gen. has potential, part of what has helped the Big 3 is that the guys in their mid-late 20's are tomato cans. I don't think that's happening again.***
Since you posted this last Aug., Nole has won 3 of the last 4 majors; '18 USO, '19 AO, & '19 Wimbl.! It's now 20-18-16; any change of heart?
***Sly lit'l bastard digging this up. Yes, I didn't expect Djoker to win 3 of 4 since then. If he wins this USO, & he's fave to do so, he's an enormous threat that's for sure. Still a threat = if he doesn't. Main issue I've been wrong on is the Next Gen. They're still currently nothing & I thought that'd change by now.
***One of reasons Djokovic is still playing after his injury is b/c Federer showed him that it c/b done @ 37.***
It's the reason a lot of these players of sports continue well after their prime! They're being tested & they want to prove something! Back in the day Evert would've retired before 30, but due to the brilliance of Martina, it made her hang around for a few more yrs; actually winning 3 > majors she wouldn't have had if not for her comp.!
***Very true, & it's not just Djokodal, many players are still playing now although they shouldn't. Making this era filled w/ old guys hanging around. Everybody's calling this era one of oldest, players making recs in "the oldest" category, but they seem to forget what role in it has most influential player on tour.***
There's too much $$ t/b made to retire; = if losing early in a major! Back in the day, we had old geezers taking up space, but they were the face of the game in every way possible w/ players like Rosewall, Laver, Ashe, & others! It wasn't as offensive back then b/c it was hard to fill a major draw; esp. the women who had 1st Rd. byes!
***...The roof being closed in that Wimbl. final last yr. vs Rafa was crucial @ the X for Nole.***
ReplyDeleteNole was just coming back from his emotional & physical hiatus; making the final in Queens the tourney before! I was praying the rules w/b in Novak's favor for a change; the roof making the diff. in that Wimbledon SF IMO! Isner did us all a favor by extending his match to well over 5 hrs w/ Anderson! Nadal was on the cusp of taking advantage of Roger being upset & Nole not @ his best! The final whb a formality; so he's gotta be thinking of "what chb" as well as Roger!
***The quality of this yr's final is highly overrated, but still beyond last yr's SF. Djokovic was pretty damn weak that match, the Rafa fans know it which is why it was = more painful. Djoker played pretty weak this final too, making the loss all the more pathetic for Roger.***
I'm not trying to take away from Nole's victory, but he really wasn't playing that well in that final! He was very fortunate to take his 5th Wimbl.; a real gift from Roger! That pendulum swing is freakin' huge; poss. 21-18-15! That might've taken Djokovic out of the running for GOAT but for a missed 1st serve & a passing shot that shouldn't have = been played! "Thanks Roger!"
***Yes, Novak was rather bad in this final & his stats are absol. pathetic. Roger played a decent match for the majority, but was spec.-ed Fed in ALL the key moments.***
You ain't kidding; Nole no UFE's in the 3 TB's while Roger had 11! That was the match! It was his for the taking; esp. w/ MP's!
***...I think Rafa has the toughest draw @ the USO. He could potentially have a tough match every Rd. (for a change after so many cupcake draws coming his way over the yrs). In 1R he faces Milkman, who is certainly a tough opp. for an opener. Assuming Kokk is injury free, he's also tough; opp. in 2R (Kokk beat Fed in Miami last yr). ...Verdasco c/b a tough opp. on HC's for Ralph in 3R. In 4R, Ralph could face Isner or Cilic & that c/b a tough also. In QF, Khachanov could give Ralph a run for $$ (Sasha is the projected QF opp., but I guess he won't make it there).
...Fed has the 2nd easiest draw. There's some chance that Novak would not make it as Novak's Qtr. is tougher than Roger's QTR. Even if both make it, there's reasonable chance that Roger w/b fresher than Novak due to easiness of draw. Whoever wins the top 1/2 most likely will not face Ralph as Ralph's QTR looks tougher than either Novak or Roger. If they face a next / lost gen. in the final, obviously they would have the advantage as they would have already punched beyond their wt. ...Novak has the toughest draw.
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I think Djokovic is suffocating tennis > Fed right now so why do you want him t/b around & not Fed? I'd be happy if Nadal got back to #1; ANYBODY besides Novak b/c he's been there way too long.***
He's winning so Nole's suffocating tennis? Right! So what w/b the diff. be if Fedal were winning everything again like last season? It sucked to me; "back to the future after a decade!" If I have anything to say about it, keeping Nadal off the top rung s/b the goal w/ his boring ass game! Even w/ all his wins, I see him as a super-underachiever playing back so far on the court he's dodging linesmen & ballboys! He allows players outside the top 100 to extend him to the limit; esp. in majors when he starts out slow & gets down by a set or 2! I'm not sure how he can possibly be thought of as "the best" if he defended his 1st HC title ever recently? If you want to give him "clay GOAT" honors, have @ it people, but that's all he's getting out of me! He's lagging woefully behind in wks @ #1, has a really imbalanced career w/ most of his titles coming on clay, & wimping out when things get tough on other surfaces (WD @ '18 AO & USO SF's)!
***Djokovic vs. Nadal is the >est rivalry in men’s tennis = When they 1st met @ the FO in '06, Nadal & Djokovic had 1 major title btw the 2 of them. Now, Nadal has 18 while Djokovic has 16 — & @ ages 33 & 32, resp., they could both reach or surpass Fed’s current major rec. of 20.
ReplyDelete...Fedal have played 14 matches in majors versus 15 for Nadal & Djokovic. Federer vs. Djokovic is a remarkable rivalry too, but they also have not played as many X's overall (48). And unlike Djokovic & Fed or Fedal, Djokovic & Nadal have met in the final of all 4 GS's. Djokovic is also one of only 2 men to beat Nadal @ the FO; QF's in '15.
...Djokovic & Nadal may meet again soon; if it’s in this U.S.O., a potential 55th match btw the 2 — the event’s top seeds — would come in the final on 9/8. And if not, perhaps b/c of the shoulder injury Djokovic's nursing, there'll likely be many > big matches btw them in the future. They’re still in their primes & they’re just too good to stay away from each other. - Berrettini is a complete player while Rublev is one-trick pony. He has 3 titles, Rublev 1.***
...I'm more concerned about Nole dropping so many pts! I didn't expect him to defend, but this was a very early exit! The #1 ranking is coming into play since he has so many pts to defend this Fall! He might have to let the ranking go to save his arm! He should skip the Asian swing of the tour & end it @ the YEC w/ a 6th title to secure #1 over the long dead period until the AO! I don't like "yahoos" winning such a prestigious event = though it happens per.! Nothing was more bizarre @ the time than Davydenko taking the title in '09 over Fedalovic; Nadal dropping all 3 of his RR matches!
***Your advice is spot on: he's approaching the age where Fed started "saving" himself, = taking 1/2 yr. sabbatical when needed to heal. Joker should learn an off-court lesson from a serious master.***
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I was just making note of how tough it's been for Nole winning his majors going vs 1 or 2 of the other Big 4; only getting a brk in his 1st AO vs Tsonga & then Anderson last yr. @ Wimbl.! You might group Del Po from his USO final, but @ least he's beaten the other top players in the past! Sampras, Fed, & Nadal have gobbled up many of their majors vs inferior talent or their own personal pigeons! Fed owned Roddick lock, stock, & barrel! Nadal just spanked his good buddy Ferrer & Berdych over the yrs! Then there's Sampras who you listed a bunch of "also rans" & "never-weres" in Pioline, Philippoussis, & Martin!
***Wawrinka vs Djokovic - Djokovic 19-5: Whilst it's true Stan has given Djoker problems, the h2h is still 19-5 in favor of Djokovic which is dom. if you ask me. - This is just match-ups. Djokovic regularly bashes Nadal w/ offense. He can't do the same to Medvedev, but Nadal can. The reason Djokovic can regularly outhit Fedal off the baseline & hit a ton of winners against them is b/c he's able to force short balls from them, then he hits winners. Stan has an ability to hit everything hard, = from defensive positions so he gives Djokovic < to work w/. Djokovic can get many > short balls from Fedal when he attacks them & often bullies them off the baseline.***
***Djokovic d Fed 6-3, 6-4 in YEC final, '15 on HC in London.
ReplyDeleteIt's Djokovic's 5th title & rec. brk'n 4th in a row. It capped a season where he won AO, Wimbl. & USO (beating Fed in the finals of the latter 2) while being R-up @ FO, in + to rec. brk'n 6 Masters titles from 8 finals. He'd go onto to win AO (beating Fed in SF) & FO the following yr. to complete a non-CYGS. Fed had won the pairs RR encounter - 1 of 3 X's he beat him in the yr. (5 losses).
- Djokovic won 62 pts, Fed 53
Serve Stats
Djokovic...
- 1st serve % (37/56) 66%
- 1st serve pts won (23/37) 62%
- 2nd serve pts won (16/19) 84%
- Aces 5 (1 sec. serve)
- Unret'd Serve % (17/56) 30%
Fed...
- 1st serve % (39/59) 66%
- 1st serve pts won (27/39) 69%
- 2nd serve pts won (9/20) 45%
- Aces 6
- Double Faults 2
- Unret'd Serve % (16/59) 27%
Serve Pattern
Djokovic served...
- to FH 41%
- to BH 52%
- to Body 7%
Fed served...
- to FH 47%
- to BH 44%
- to Body 9%
Return Stats
Djokovic made...
- 41 (18 FH, 23 BH)
- 1 Winner (1 FH)
- 10 Errors, comprising...
- 1 Unf'd (1 FH)
- 9 Forced (5 FH, 4 BH)
- Return Rate (41/57) 72%
Fed made...
- 39 (16 FH, 23 BH), includ. 1 runaround FH
- 12 Errors, comprising...
- 7 Unf'd (5 FH, 2 BH), includ. 2 runaround FHs
- 5 Forced (3 FH, 2 BH)
- Return Rate (39/56) 70%
Brk Pts
Djokovic 3/9 (5 games)
Fed 0/2 (2 games)
Winners (includ. returns, exclud. aces)
Djokovic 8 (4 FH, 4 BH)
Fed 14 (5 FH, 3 BH, 1 FHV, 3 BHV, 2 OH)
Djokovic's FHs - 4 cc (1 return, 1 pass & 1 at net)
- BHs - 1 cc pass, 2 dtl & 1 inside-out
Fed's FHs - 1 cc, 1 dtl, 2 inside-out & 1 inside-in
- BHs - 3 dtl
- the FHV was a swinging shot & not a net pt.
- 1 OH was the 2nd volley of a S & V pt.
Errors (exclud. returns & serves)
Djokovic 23
- 13 Unf'd (7 FH, 6 BH)
- 10 Forced (7 FH, 3 BH)
Unf'd Error Forcefulness Index 51.5
Fed 35
- 23 Unf'd (9 FH, 12 BH, 1 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 12 Forced (5 FH, 4 BH, 2 BHV, 1 BH1/2V)
Unf'd Error Forcefulness Index 47.4
Net Pts & S & V
Djokovic was...
- 4/5 (80%) at net, w/...
- 1/1 forced back/retreated
Fed was...
- 11/18 (61%) at net, includ...
- 2/4 (50%) s & v, comprising...
- 2/3 (67%) off 1st serve &...
- 0/1 off 2nd serve
--
- 1/1 forced back/retreated
Match Report
Routine & impressive from Djokovic. There are 2 keys to the match - Djokovic's >er consistency of shot & Fed's inability to manufacture any counter-play vs the Djoko 2nd serve
1st serve is about normal Fed's norm. The slowness of the court & Djokovic tremendous reaction returning holds Fed to just 27% unret'd serves. Djoko moves to get into pos. in a flash & swings returns back neutralizingly
The improvements in his serve over the yrs' interesting to see. Quality of Nole's 1st serve isn't far short of Fed. It's a Hell of a lot closer to Fed's serve > Fed's return's to Djoko's, for starters. Still, most would struggle returning Djoko's 1st serve... & Fed's no exception. He's neither particularly consistent nor damaging w/ the return... & misses a few makeable returns, while Djoko sends down a few very difficult ones too (5 aces from Djoko - just 1 < Fed)
8/19 Djoko 2nd serves go unreturned (includ. an ace Fed misanticipated the direction of) & it's all down to Fed making a mess of w/b attacking returns. runaround attempts, early big cut returns, possible chip-charges... he goes thru the whole bag of tricks, virtually every X he goes for something >. Quality of Djoko's 2nd serve is normal... full discredit for this to Fed's returning
One understands the decision for the attempt & also the big 2nd serving b/c in play...***
***Djokovic's 3-0 over Fed in Wimbl. finals' one of the GOAT achievements-
ReplyDeleteLook @ the score in the final of the greatest champions of Slam tournaments in Open Era:
RG Borg 6-0
WI Sampras 7-0
RG Nadal 12-0
AO Djokovic 7-0
WI Federer 8-1 vs anyone but 0-3 vs Djokovic
Djokovic is the only onw who dominated a dominator.
---
I think Fed's the 1st player to compete in 4 diff. decades. I c/b wrong, but I don't see anyone else who chd that. Connors did 3 decades.
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Fed met Djokovic 5x's in slams in '11-12; Nadal met Djokovic 4x's.***
The big diff. was Nole had to deal w/ Fed in SF's, then Nadal in Major Finals! This is why I give him > credit on his resume due to overwhelming odds to overcome Fedal bias w/ media & fans! Lendl had to deal w/ the same thing "back in the day" w/ Connors, McEnroe, & Borg! He was the 3rd wheel = though he surpassed both Connors & McEnroe for the most part! Djokovic has a chance to surpass Fedal if he can keep this current form up for another 2 yrs IMO! The NG'rs have already begun to make their mark & it's only a matter of X before they start taking care of "the old men" of this era!
***Slam matches % played vs GOAT contenders (Laver, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras, Fed, Nadal, Djokovic)
Murray 10.7
Djokovic 9.6
Nadal 9.4
Federer 7.5
Newcombe 6.1
Agassi 5.1
Laver 4.3
Connors 3.9
McEnroe 2.4
Rosewall 1.8
Becker 1.5
Lendl 1.1
Edberg 0.9
Borg 0.6
Wilander 0.6
Sampras 0.4
Slam matches % played vs ATGs (above mentioned + Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, Becker, Edberg, Agassi, Murray)
Lendl 17.0
McEnroe 16.5
Wilander 13.8
Djokovic 12.7
Nadal 12.6
Connors 12.4
Becker 11.3
Edberg 11.1
Murray 10.7
Federer 9.9
Agassi 9.7
Rosewall 9.0
Borg 8.9
Sampras 7.9
Newcombe 7.9
Laver 5.7
---
ex.: Murray played 10.7% of his Slam matches vs GOAT contenders Fed, Nadal, & Djokovic (25 out of 234)
---
Djokovic's h2h w/ Big 4 since '11 is something that'll never be repeated:
vs Nadal 21-10 (67.7%)
vs Federer 20-10 (66.7%)
vs Murray 21-8 (72.4%)
Nadal vs the rest of the field 493-74 (86.9%)
Federer vs the rest of the field 478-76 (86.3%)
Murray vs the rest of the field 398-81 (83.1%)
Winning so many matches vs players who have such a dominance over the rest of the field in a Xspan of 9 yrs is something that'll never be repeated.***
***Nole since '11 went almost exactly from losing 2 X's out of 3 to Fedal to beating them 2 X's out of 3.
ReplyDelete13-29 before '11 (69% of losses)
41-20 since '11 (67.2% of wins)
- Slam titles b4 '11 / since '11:
Fedal 25 / 14
Djokovic 1 / 15
- Slam finals b4 '11 / since '11:
Fedal 33 / 25
Djokovic 3 / 22
---
10 highest winning %'s vs the field in yrs they ended #1:
- DJOKOVIC
1) '18 Nadal 44-3 (93.6%)
2) '15 Federer 60-6 (90.9%)
3) '15 Murray 70-8 (89.7%)
4) '11 Fed 63-8 (88.7%)
5) '12 Nadal 39-5 (88.6%)
6) '11 Nadal 69-9 (88.5%)
7) '12 Fed 69-9 (88.5%)
8) '14 Fed 70-10 (87.5%)
9) '12 Ferrer 76-12 (86.4%)
10) '18 Fed 48-8 (85.7%)
avg: 88.8%
---
For those wondering, these are all the 2-slam seasons in OE:
'73 John Newcombe
'77 Guillermo Vilas
'78 Bjorn Borg
'79 Bjorn Borg
'80 Bjorn Borg
'81 John McEnroe
'82 Jimmy Connors
'84 John McEnroe
'86 Ivan Lendl
'87 Ivan Lendl
'89 Boris Becker
'92 Jim Courier
'93 Pete Sampras
'94 Pete Sampras
'95 Pete Sampras
'97 Pete Sampras
'99 Andre Agassi
'05 Roger Federer
'08 Rafael Nadal
'09 Roger Federer
'13 Rafael Nadal
'16 Novak Djokovic
'17 Roger Federer
'17 Rafael Nadal
'18 Novak Djokovic
'19 Novak Djokovic
'19 Rafael Nadal
For reference, here are the 3-4 slam seasons:
'69 Rod Laver (CYGS)
'74 Jimmy Connors
'88 Mats Wilander
'04 Roger Federer
'06 Roger Federer
'07 Roger Federer
'10 Rafael Nadal
'11 Novak Djokovic
'15 Novak Djokovic***
***In Grand Slams:
ReplyDeleteDjokovic 256-26 (90.78%)
Nadal 245-26 (90.41%)
Federer 342-37 (90.24%)
Murray 184-25 (88.04%)
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...Rafa isn't playing @ his best & he knows it.***
After getting the brk, Novak went "beast-mode" to finish off Medvedev @ the ATP Cup SF!
***On his 2nd MP, Novak d Dsniil 6-1, 5-7, 6-4. Serbia has reached the final of the ATP Cup. - A quality win by Novak. Still not the level I hope to see from him. I can't imagine one other player that would've beaten Daniil today. Now Let’s hope for a Novak - Nadal final.
---
...My issue w/ the ATP Cup is DC just took place. If I was a player, this event would mean nothing bar practice for Melbourne.***
To me it's just another way of usurping power from the ITF! The ATP can't seem to work well enough to just go about their business! They feel they need t/b @ odds w/ the "Old POWER" running tennis! ...This is just redundant IMO & another reason for the players to kvetch about how tough the season has been! Idiots!
***ITA.
---
W/ Nadal & Djokovic ranked #1 & #2, then playing each other in final, it means the winner of this match gets 250 ATP pts. Given how close they are currently in the ATP ranking, I think they will BOTH want to win this match & take it as if it's a GS final. There's currently 900 pts btwn them B4 AO. ...If Djokovic defends his title & Nadal loses before the final, Djokovic may take over #1 by the end of the AO.***
Nole came out to play! He went thru Rafa in the 1st set in quick order w/ 2 service brks! Djokovic's serve is "on" & he's acing Rafa @ will! It's very reminiscent of their final last season @ the AO!
***This match wasn't the goal. I'm very proud of the way that Nadal was very comp. in the 2nd set. ...Novak's the superior player on HC, but Rafa has got to quit conceding the baseline on his return of service to Novak's service.
---
Goatdal's singles spanking won't allow him to play dubs? - He deserved to rest, esp. in front of AO. Wished the same for Novak, but he wants badly to deliver this title to Serbia. Looks like he w/b successful. Nole & his bud Troicki won the dubs to take it. "Congrats Serbia!"***
Nothing new! Rafa plays when he wants & where he wants! There have been seasons when he's blown off DC as well, so not playing the dubs w/ this new title on the line which doesn't affect his personal rec. is no real surprise!
***Come on, it’s not that important. He played a lot of matches. I'd understand it totally in this case. He could also avoid to play Novak in singles, but he didn’t. He had to know that Novak was in good shape.***
Novak disagrees! It's big for him & he relishes it > since he can do it w/ his friends & teammates! Even though after 2 AM, The Serbs took the X to have a press conference & spoke for quite a while on how much they enjoyed it & the pride they have to do this for their country! As was said, Spain had their fun @ DC last yr.; Serbia got some redemption w/ this win in a new event created by the ATP!
***I meant Nadal, he didn’t play a doubles match. Not that big deal. For Novak it was clearly a matter of honor. Man we s/b just happy about what we saw in that match! We can look much brighter on the upcoming season.
---
Oh, sure. Of course you think like that in matches where Djokovic doesn't = have to try. But somehow you didn't really want them to meet when Nadal was the more in-form player.***
How was Nadal not in form; he lost to Novak? You're obviously not paying attn. to history! This is just a continuation of what we already know, Nole's the best HC player! We've given the same amount of love to Rafa for his clay court expertise! What troubles Nadal fans is that it's more of a contest on clay where Nole actually competes well & can win while Rafa's been struggling for YRS w/ Djokovic on HC's! Get your head out of the sand babe!
***It's a simple fact. Djokovic during his prime faced an out of form Nadal MUCH > X's than the other way around. You find it hard to admit that. (Don't bring me this BS that Djokovic was a nobody before '11)***
ReplyDeleteAgain with the "out of form" Nadal-BS! lol! Hilarious! At the AO last yr. he was being touted as the next winner, had held serve 50+ str. X's, but that all changed in the final vs his nemesis, Djokovic! Spare me he wasn't prepared, ready, or too fk'n old! That's ridiculous after seeing him take out Medvedev who's beaten Nole a few X's! It doesn't make sense jr.!
***If you think Nadal's anywhere near his prime level then I feel sorry for you. You simply have no idea how high was Nadal's level when he was in his prime. I guess you also think that '11 Djokovic (who lost sets to Nadal on HC, in AO '12 needed 5 sets to beat him) was a worse player than 519 Djokovic.***
So what do you say about Nole taking sets or beating Nadal on clay; = in his prime? The commentary is hypocritical & makes lit'l to no sense!
***Throughout 9 HC matches, Nadal has had 15 BP chances & has successfully only broken Nole twice (WTF 13, IW 16). Djokovic OTOH has had 64 BP chances, converting 29 X's in total.***
Nole's good @ getting to BP's; surrounds his opps w/ them, but all too often they escape! I'm breaking someone if I have L-40; Nole drops those too often! It's not like he's making errors; the op either comes up w/ something brilliant or something happens like a net cord or bad call by the linesmen! Nole's relentless &'ll continue to play like this I hope!
***Both Nadal & Djokovic have won most of their great titles during what has, with occasional slumps, been a true golden era - one of the highest sustained levels of comp. over many yrs. Basically true it was always in-form Fed & Nole Rafa had to face, & the same for Nole (& for Fed since '08). ...OTOH, the 3 Slams won by Murray & Wawrinka, you probably couldn't stop them if you +ed peak Sampras, Agassi, & Kuerten to the circuit.
---
Djokovic lost to Roddick, Tsonga, & Wawrinka during his prime.***
I love how some just skip over how many X's Nole's stopped Fed @ the AO over the yrs; ordinarily in the SF, so not much is made of it I guess!
***Slam SF's vs. Fed; Nole's record:
AO: 3-0
RG: 1-1
Wimbledon: 0-1
USO: 2-2***
I mentioned one slam, not all encompassing; shhheeeessshhhh! People can't read around here?
***I was just trying t/b helpful. It confirmed your pt. about AO w/ the 3-0 rec. in SF. I wasn't contradicting you. I can read.***
I just liked seeing the 3-0 alone! That FO match still haunts me to this day; Nole losing to old man river on the dirt! That was one of Nole's super seasons winning 3 majors, but dropped that 1 SF in '11! No one'll ever come close to his '15 w/ titles, finals, $$, & YE pts!
***AO success depends if Nole draws Wawrinka in 4th Rd. Novak’s chances decrease tremendously if he draws Stan.***
Stan just lost in the SF in Doho; seeded #1 w/o the rest of the BIGGIES there, this title shb his! Idiot; it goes to Rublev instead! I never heard of Moutet! I don't think Nole has any concerns dealing w/ another old man hanging on past his expiration date after losing to this kid!
***...I think Nole s/b concerned about the only player to having a winning h2h in HC slams vs him since '14. 1-3 in favor of Wawrinka, w/ those 3 losses accounting for 1/2 of Novak’s losses in HC slams since '14, including the most recent one.***
I don't understand! Why in the HELL should I give a flying Fk what happened yrs ago when Stan's been out of it for quite a while? The player Nole's most concerned w/ these days is Medvedev! That's the one who's been giving him the most trouble, not Stan, Fed, or Nadal!
***Who is the HC GOAT- Djokovic vs Federer?
ReplyDeleteHC slam wins- Djokovic 11, Federer 11
HC slam finals- Djokovic 16, Federer 14
HC slam semis- Djokovic 19, Federer 25
HC Masters- Djokovic 25, Federer 22
- I'd prob. go w/ Djokovic @ this pt., but it's very close. It's prob. one of the last X's it c/b a serious discussion. It's pretty much a guarantee t/b Djokovic by the end of his career.
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Fast HC's - Sampras
Slow HC's - Djokovic
Overall HC's - Fed?
---
Hard courts H2H: Djokovic- 20 (+WO) –18
•Outdoor: Djokovic- 14–13
•Indoor: Djokovic- 6 (+WO) –5
•GS Djokovic- 7-4 (AO 3-1, USO 3-3), GS F 1-1
•WTF Djokovic- 3 (+WO) -3, WTF F 2 (+WO) -0
•Masters Djokovic- 8-6
•MM Federer- 4-2
•DC Federer- 1-0
•All Finals Djokovic- 9 (+WO) -7
- AO Wins %: Djokovic 90.4%, Fed 87.2%
- USO Wins %: Nole 86.7%, Fed 86.4%
- All GS hard %: Nole 88.6%, Fed 86.8%
- All hard %: Nole 84.2%, Fed 83.5%
+ Nole 2 > slams finals & 3 > Masters titles. Fed 1 > WTF title.
---
Djoker’s case. Djoker achieved as much in a shorter per. of X. Djoker was only 32 when he bagged his 11th HC slam, whereas Fed was 36. Djoker has been >er in Masters’ events as well. These 2 things give Djoker a very strong case.
Fed’s case: Fed’s streaks were incredible on HC's. He won 5 str. USO titles & made 6 str. finals. That’s remarkable. He also owns the longest HC winning streak; an amazing 56 str. Nobody's in the same universe for cons. matches won. The next best streak is 36, which is also held by Fed. He also owns the WTF rec. Fed also defended a slam title twice @ the AO & 4 X's @ the USO. Djoker never defended a title @ the USO.
-To me, Fed’s peak was >er. But Djoker was great for a longer period of X & he achieved as much in a shorter period of X. Djoker has now won a HC slam in 9 out of his last 10 seasons. That is truly remarkable.
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The pt. is to show how quickly things can turn around. When Nole finished his Nole Slam, it appeared as though he's going to overtake everyone in just 2 yrs. But he basically laid an egg.***
That is so ridiculous! A player can't win them all; = Fed or Nole! Djokovic had a great run from '14-16! There was bound to be a crash! His arm was already giving him trouble that summer before the USO in '16! We see how Rafa has gone up & down w/ his body & play! If anything Nole's had the least amt. of trouble & has just about caught both Fedal = though they had a significant lead & were beating him in yrs past! You should know this already!
***Fed, AO GOAT, til '19 Final won his 6 titles beating only one...
- Djokovic... He won 8 AO beating top 3 players 8 X's on 6 tourns:
'08 #1 Fed
'11 #2 Fed
'12 #2 Nadal
'13 #3 Murray
'15 -
'16 #3 Fed, #2 Murray
'19 #2 Nadal
'20 #3 Fed
Nadal... He won only 1 AO & he won one top 3 match:
'09 #2 Fed
Federer: He won 6 AO titles, & beat only 1 top 3 player when he won his 1st title. In meanX, he hasn't beaten any top 3 players, winning title, for 15 fk'n yrs...
'04 #3 Ferrero
'06 -
'07 -
'10 -
'17 -
'18 -***
***If you look @ Nole's last 4 wins @ W.'14, he was pushed to the brink by Cilic early on B4 Fed took him the distance in the final. In '15, Anderson was on the edge of beating him in the 4th Rd I think, & then of course both Fedal had him pinned w/ his back against the wall. Had he not pulled off the clutch crossct. pass vs both of them, he could've lost both matches. It was that close. No such danger in his last 4 AO wins relative to these Wimbl. '15 bagelled Wawrinka in the 5th set of the SF, & this final, once Djokovic calmed down & zoned in, there was only going t/b one winner.***
ReplyDeleteBack in the day, Borg was just as much under the gun; > so since he played w/ wood on unforgiving, choppy grass! What is it they say, "all champs have one of those matches ever so often?" They survive & go on to win the title! Becker in '89 was on the brink early in the USO & if not for a net cord that jumped over Rostagno's racket, Lendl might have an extra major listed in his column!
***Yes, of course & you are right. However, how many of those does Djokovic have in relation to/at AO is the point I'm trying to highlight, basically in regards to where his dominance is relative btw AO & W. ...lets say this ?? was asked B4 the final w/ Djokovic @ W'11. Nadal would've won the last 2 Wimbl. he played in, but if the ?? was asked where is Nadal still the most dom., the answer would un??ably be RG b/c of the struggles Nadal still has in the 1st wk. @ W, compared to dom. RG.
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Wimbl. IMO is where the Big 3 are closest now. Any of the 3 can defeat the other. Nadal of course w/ the least chance, but a chance nonethe<. Djokovic doesn't really have that threat from them @ AO.***
I know it sounds crazy, but IMO Nole's main focus was his 2 other rivals, Fedal & few others for the most part! That's why he's so successful playing against them, catching up at the end after their advantage early on in their H2H contests! Along with hurting his should, overplaying up to and including the completion of his Nole-Slam, their were some personal issues going on behind the scenes! I add to the malaise was the fact that Fedal was nowhere to be seen! Murray was the main protagonist making final after final, ultimately giving him the #1 ranking at the end of 2016! With Djokovic off the tour for the most part 2017-early '18, that was when Fedal was allowed to take over the tour! People just keep giving much too much credit to them achieving so much so late in their careers! It helps when 2 other top players are sidelined in Djokoray! The same thing happened with McEnroe for a while! The loss of Borg disappointed and hurt him which gave Connors an opening to regain #1 so late in his career! Some rivalries are more important to the history of the game! Starting with Rosewall and Laver, there really isn't anything like what Fedalovic have been able to achieve and overcome!
Novak's AO goat, but he's doing > @ Wimbl. too. I've a feeling that it's easier for him to win Wimbl. > Australian. Weaker comp. @ Wimbl. Bigger threat is Fed vs whom Novak is fav, m/b, just m/b Nadal, or some big hitter & server, whom he'd solve in BO5. No Thiem in sight, no Zverev, no Medvedev, there's Kyrgios who c/b m/b dangerous... It seems those younger players will need some > X to adopt their movement & game overall to grass conditions. Novak needed that X as well. Another reason is Novaks best serve-return combo which is crucial @ Wimbl., IMO...
At AO I've feeling many > can put him down. Luckily this yr. he missed them in draw...#'s are telling too...
From '14, which showed t/b Novak's comeback yr. as the boss, he had:
- 4/6 titles @ Wimbl. - W W 3R QF W W
- 4/7 titles @ AO - QF W W 2R 4R W W
Hope Wimbl. '20 will prove me correct.***
***Well Nole didn't have the chance to sweep the field & accum. 237 wks in a row, only possible to do in the weakest era of all-X during '03-07.***
ReplyDeleteIt helped that Fed's major pigeon was his only real rival back then; A-Rod! Roddick wasn't that >, but prob. would've or should've won > that USO!
***Nole had an = weaker era from '15- present (5 yrs & counting). He’s lucky t/b playing in the weakest grass era ever too or he would have 0-1 Wimbl. titles. - No, '03-07 is the weakest. That makes Cow's 1st 12 slams & 237 wks possible.***
Well that's ridiculous! The Next Gens that have passed of late may not have won or beaten the Big 3, but they're far from weak! They have talent & abilities to win over elite players, but are just unable to complete the deal when it counts; = w/ X MP's! You see > upsets now, but The Big 3 still "own it" for the X being! We'll see what '20 brings; so far it's still on Nole who started the season well taking the ATP Cup & AO!
***Who cares? Dude will never be unanimous GOAT = w/ 22 slams b/c people don't like him as much as Fedal.***
That m/b true, but they'll only be deluding themselves & not facing up to facts! I know that's the thing these days w/ some peeps (esp. in the Trump era) who'd rather live in fantasyland & believe "alt-fact!" I'm just glad I'm old & feeble & won't have to deal w/ those a-holes much longer!
***Believe me they care. Their self-worth is entirely based on Cow's goathood, which is as fragile as their egos.
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Wimbl.'14 was a turning pt. If Novak had lost the final from MP, his mental strength whb still > weakened & Novak's career w/b poorer about many GS titles.
Triumph in '14 Wimb. repaired Nole's mental strength & opened the way for him to re-dominance. 10 out of 17 GS titles & 4 out of 5 multi-GS seasons, Novak reached after that match.***
There was > riding on this match > we all remember; well m/b everyone else! I quite recall that Boris' job was on the line! He had come on board to help "get Djokovic over the hump" the previous season! If Nole had dropped that match, Becker whh to hit the road! Djokovic had won AO & Masters events w/o a problem, but Becker wasn't = there recovering from some kind of surgery! So it whb hard for him to take cred. for those victories! That '14 changed the course of history if you think about it! It changed everything! Fed was doomed from then on! He really needed to take that match to quash any hope of Djokovic ascending to his thrown! Now it's too late & the Wimbl. match from last season was only icing on the cake!
***If Novak wins the CYGS, & it's possible w/ how he’s playing, he would un??ably claim the “GOAT” title. He’s be the only one w/ @ least 2 majors each (although Roger got to 5 FO finals & Rafa got to 5 AO finals, but each only winning 1).
He’d be the only one w/ a slam. He’d tie Roger for most majors & move ahead of Rafa. And then, when you consider his winning h2h rec. vs each of them, he’d be the GOAT, all just after 4 months of turning 33 (& prob. 2 or > majors still in him, or >).
So, in just 6 1/2 months, the debate c/b over. And = though I’m a huge Fedal fan, I know Novak would've clearly surpassed them. And the way he’s playing, I think he could do it. He's an absol. machine, both mentally & physically. He’s >er right now than he’s EVER been, esp. his serve, drop shot & improved net play.***
***Djokovic vs Nadal since '11 - 9 yrs of domination
ReplyDeleteSince start of '11 the rivalry stands @ 22-10 in favour of Novak. This includes a 6-1 run for Nadal.
- Surface-wise distr.:
Clay: 7-8
Indoor HC: 2-0
Outdoor HC: 11-2
Grass: 2-0
Novak has won 14 of last 18 matches, 12 of which are str. sets. In one of his run inbtwn this streak Djokovic went 7 matches w/o losing a set (6-3 6-3; 7-5 6-3 6-1; 6-2 6-2; 6-3 6-3;6-1 6-2; 7-6(5) 6-2; 7-5 7-6(4)). ...In fact if you consider the 7-5 1st set @ FO & that Novak was leading it 5-1 or something makes it look = > horrible for Nadal.
...Something brings the best out of Novak when facing Federer. I think it's Nadal who brings the beast out him > anyone. Nadal since '11 has been a similar (if not > of a) pigeon to Novak like Fed had been to Nadal til '13.
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Novak has been the best player of the last decade, ...there's no excuse for Nadal for any of his losses to Novak, though his best tennis was clearly behind him by '15. What's totally unexpected is this late surge from the Big-3 starting from '17.
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Djokovic has the perfect build to last the longest & brk all of the recs. He has maintained his peak the longest of the Big 3. I wouldn't be surprised to see him own nearly all of the important recs when this is all said & done. He'll likely be remembered as the greatest.
Nadal’s best yrs are behind him. Injuries have robbed him of valuable speed. He’s still quite good. Djokovic is still near his top form. Fed has fallen off quite a bit due to age (oldest player ranked in the top 100 currently).
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That '14-16 per. was when they started getting older, approached 30. Djokovic adapted to his age, Nadal didn't. Novak got him a big serve & > efficiency. Nadal kept trying to grind w/ a weak 1st serve. Novak also changed the way he played Rafa from '14 onward, thanks to the blueprt. he made along w/ Becker, where the play was to attack the FH to open up the BH side. Djokovic was not playing Nadal that way B4, he was simply using his overall higher level of play to win. It was not just Nadal getting older, it was also the real gameplan to attack & beat Nadal that to this day Nadal had not really solved.
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We can't ignore Rafa's dominance over Djoker before '11.***
Sure we can! Why acknowledge the era where a newbie had to beat either or both Fedal to win any & every tourn. @ the X? All others quit, ran out of gas, or never got to a level close enough to bring down "The Big 3" = though they're aging & have lost a step or 2!
***Big 3 highest win % vs the field:
ReplyDelete'20 - - 34-2 (94.4%)
'11 - 188-18 (91.3%)
'12 - 177-19 (90.3%)
'13 - 182-21 (89.7%)
'15 - 193-24 (88.9%)
'14 - 173-22 (88.7%)
Djokovic's score vs Big 3 in these seasons --> 34-16
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Novak keeps owning Rafa, but the SOB is still racking up the majors. He's won 10 GS in the per./decade.***
Djokovic has single-handedly kept Nadal from winning a lot >; final after final going to Nole starting in '11! Nadal got his FO's, but Djokovic got most everything else!
***Nadal has hurt Djokovic > the other way around, that's all I care about.***
How do you figure? You think Nadal keeping > FO's under his column is driving Nole insane? Doubtful w/ him acquiring a lot > recs of significance incl. wks @ #1, his > bal. resume, so many > AO's & YEC's, w/ > others defining his consistency over the yrs! Nadal's recs show he's a clay specialist for the most part! Being called the GOAT w/ only 1 AO & 2 Wimbls. in this weak era outside the Big 3 is inexcusable!
***Avg. btw win % vs older players & winning % vs younger players:
1) Djokovic 84.60%
2) Nadal 83.25%
3) Connors 82.34%
4) Federer 81.75%
5) Lendl 81.45%
6) McEnroe 81.39%
7) Laver 80.10%
8) Borg 79.18%
9) Sampras 77.28%
10) Murray 76.80%
In Grand Slams:
1) Djokovic 88.93%
2) Borg 88.29%
3) Nadal 87.73%
4) Federer 86.56%
5) Sampras 84.24%
6) Connors 84.00%
7) Agassi 82.13%
8) McEnroe 81.93%
9) Murray 81.02%
10) Lendl 81.00%
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...Djokr's come a long way in closing the H2H w/ Nadal. But @ the same X ignoring the fact that Rafa was ill or injured for most of those yrs.***
That is such horseshit! No one GAF if Nadal was injured or not! You wouldn't GAF if Nole was hurt or emotionally spent! You need to get over it; NOLE owns Rafa's ass lock, stock, & barrel no matter how you want to look @ it! Nadal had a huge H2H lead, but it's gone now w/ 2 7-match winning strks; something no one else has come close to includ. Fed! So Rafa fans need to face up to the facts, = though ahead by 2 majors, it's only a matter of X B4 Djokovic stands atop the mount of GOAT!
***And YET Nole trails Nadal in USO titles, that's all we're saying.***
Dude, why do this again? ...At the YEC alone it can't be ignored Djokovic owns a bunch of titles while Nadal's only made 2 finals; @ X's not = making it out of the RR's! Who's on the verge of taking over wks @ #1? It's not Rafa who's never been able to hold the top rank for = a yr., much < acquire enough wks to make a move on Fedovic! Of course Nole's the only player to win all 14 ATP major events; 23 X X's! Fedal are not going to pick up those last 2 holes in their resumes either! Do we really need to go on? Djokovic is nowhere near my all X fave, but I know his rec. is superior to Fedal = though they're still barely ahead in the major ct.! People love to throw out that Fed's 5-6 yrs older, but hypocritically aren't thinking Nole has that many yrs to surpass all of Fed's supposedly untouchable recs! End RANT!
***CAREER EARNINGS FED NADAL DJOKR
ReplyDeleteTurned Pro: - - - - - - '98 - '01 - '03
Prize $$$(M) - - - - - 129.9 121.0 143.6
Career rec.w/l: 1242-272 990-200 911-187
Career record % - 82.0% - 83.2% - 83.0%
Career Titles: - - - 103 - - 85 - - - 79
Highest ranking: - - #1 ALL Three GUYS
Wks @ #1 - - - - - - - 310 - 209 - - 282
GRAND SLAMS: - - - - 20 - 19 - - - 17
AO: W ('4'6-7'10'17-18)-('09)-('08,'11-13,'15-16,'19-20)
FO: W ('09) - - - W ('05-08,'10-14,'17-19) - - - W ('16)
Wimb: W ('3-7,'9,'12,'17) W ('8'10) W ('11'14-15'18-19)
USO: W ('4-8) - - W ('10,'13,'17,'19) - W ('11,'15,'18)
OTHER COMPS: - - - - 7 - - - - - 6 - - - - - 5
YEC's: - W ('03-04,'06-07,'10-11) F(2) W ('08,'12-15)
Olympics: F ('12) - - - - - - - W ('08) - - Bronze ('08)
Davis Cup: W ('14) - W ('04,'08-09,'11,'19) - W ('10)
MASTERS 1000: - - 28 - - - - 35 - - - - - - - - 34
IW: W ('4-6,'12,'17) W ('7,'9,'13) W ('8,'11,'14-16)
M: W ('5-6,'17,'19) - F(5) - - - W ('07,'11,'12,'14-16)
MC: F (4)- - - W ('05-12,'16,'17-18) - - W ('13,'15)
H/M: W('2'4'5'7/'9'12) W ('8/'10'13-14'17) W ('11'16'19)
Rome SF(2) - W ('5-7,'9-10'12-13'18-19) W ('8'11'14'15)
Can: W ('4'6) - W ('5'8'13'18'19) - - W ('07,'11-12,'16)
Cincy: W ('5'7'9-10'12'14-15) W ('13) - - - W ('18)
Sh/MI W ('06/14'17) - - W ('05) - - W ('12-13,'15,'18)
Paris: - W ('11) - - - - F ('07) - - - W ('09,'13-15,'19)
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...Murray's by far the > consistent player, but Wawrinka's the > talented.
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Exactly. Throw in a WTF + many, many > Masters 1000 wins for Murray. He's miles ahead of Stan. - Not only that, but the only guys to ever beat Murray in Slam Finals are Fed & Djok. That's it. And he still got Djok 2x. He also made QFs or >er @ Wimbl. from '08-17.
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Once he made his 1st QF, he made @ least that or >er every season for 10 yrs. Everything he did during that 10-yr. span of '08-17 suggests that he'd have had an easy ATG resume had = 1 of those other guys been a soccer player. Oh & he's the only tennis player, M or F, w/ 2 OG's. Two! We give Rafa a ton of credit for his OG, but Murray has 2 & 1 came @ Fed's expense @ Wimbl. after having lost the final earlier that yr. giving him the confidence to bounce back & blow Djok off the court in strs. in '13.
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Murray was a good player in his prime, but I don't see why he's = mentioned in a sentence w/ the Big 3?
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Anyone who already was watching tennis in '08 would know why the terms "Big 4" & "Golden Gen." were created. ...To be clear, newbies will not understand why Murray is one of the members of Big 4, whereas people who started watching tennis from '08 & earlier would know where the term Big 4 came from & why Murray is counted as one of them.***
Unfortunately Stan was > the underachiever of the 2! Allowing old man Fed to own him all these yrs made no sense! He has the >er & > powerful BH, but has very lit'l success vs the "Big 3!"
***He's def. a late bloomer, starting playing his best tennis in his late 20's after working w/ Magnus Norman. I believe it's all matchups. He def. doesn't fare well vs Fed, but's the >est threat to Djoker whenever they meet in Slams. Stan's GS wins & performances are memorable & keeps you in awe while Murray's wins not so much.***
...Nole's run to #1 started w/ Serbia taking DC, marching him into a run for the ages winning AO, The Sunshine Double, then dom. his rival, Rafa in final after final on clay in Madrid & Rome in strs.! If not for Fed playing out of his mind & serving Djokovic off the court in the SF, Paris might've solidified Nole's dom. over Fedal a lot earlier!
ReplyDelete***'11 was supposed to have been Nadal cementing his legacy as an all surface great & getting closer to Fed's total. He would've had 12 Slams after '11, 14 after '12, & 16 after '13. He would've reached Fed's 17 in '14, whereas it took him until '18 w/ Djokovic around. No one saw Djokr '11 coming.***
It changed the course of history; just those few months starting '11! Fedal was being replaced by Nadovic except in the hearts & minds of the tennis intelligentsia & MSM!
***If you could keep everything the same, right now Nadal would have 24 Slams & Fed would have 26 w/o Djokovic. It def. changed the course of history. - He'd have led a much >er & > fulfilling life had Novak not become the subject of his obsession.
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Nadal would've cleaned up in '11 just like he did in '10 if not for Earth's Mightiest Warrior. - Nadal '11 played @ a >er level > '10, but faced peak BOAT instead of Berdych, Soderling, Youzny, pre-gluten baby Djokovic.***
That's why I apprec. Nole so much I created a blog in his honor! He single-handedly changed the course of history b/c so called experts had already anointed Rafa the new GOAT w/ his winning H2H over Fed! McEnroe & Wilander were beating the drum early & often! Nole spared my sanity; "THANKS!"
***I also thought it w/b the Nadal Era after Fed started declining. It just seemed like CYGS was imminent, w/ Djokovic the only hope to resist his dom. And he sure resisted!
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Novak’s rise in '11 were the =alent to the Golden State Warriors rise around '15. It looked like LeBron was on his way to GOAThood after his 2nd title in Miami & he may have won 4 titles in a row w/o GS, likely putting him past Jordan. Nadal may have won 10/13 majors btw ‘10 RG & ‘13 USO, which prob. puts him ahead of Fed.
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As Novak accepts his USO R-up trophy, he had 1 GS title while coming up short to Rafa & Roger. After '10, Fed had 16 slams, 9 for Rafa, 1 for Novak. From '11-16, Novak gets to 18 slam finals out of 24, winning 11. In that span, he went 143-13 for 91.6%. By the end of '16, Novak closed the major gap to Roger 17, Rafa 14, Novak 12. An amazing 6 yr. run; almost as impressive as Fed’s 6 yr. run from '03-08.
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All these players could've been the title holders of 3 slams w/o Nole:
'11-12 Nadal (all 4)
'12-13 Murray (UO,AO,WI)
'14-15 Murray (UO,AO,RG)
'15-16 Fed (WI,UO,AO)
'16 Murray (AO,RG,WI)
'18-19 Nadal (RG,WI,AO)
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In terms of potentially lost GS & Masters titles, Fed lost > Nadal to Djokovic. Fed's already GOAT of longevity, but he m/b the certain GOAT overall if Djokovic didn't exist.
From '15 to today, Fed went 1-4 vs Djokovic in Masters & 1-3 in finals. Also went 2-1 vs Djokovic in Tour Finals, but 2 of his wins came in RR & he lost a final to Djokovic. He's 0-5 vs Djokovic in GS, 0-3 in finals. Fed lost 7 finals (3 GS, 1 TF, 3 M) vs Djokovic when he had a chance to solidify his status as the GOAT. And the X's he lost to Novak, it was in SF's w/ Fed having a great chance to win those tourns.
Though it cuts 3 ways, Djokovic took away from Fedal. Nadal took away from Fedovic. Fed took away from Nadovic. Nothing t/b surprised about.***
The Olympics'll continue t/b an "exhibitious" joke to me! It started that way when Edberg won the 1st in '84 & it'll always be a glorified exh. IMO! ...I give short shrift to the Olympics! We have enough in the majors & Masters which are special events!
ReplyDelete***But whatever you may feel about Olympic tennis, to the players who took part & won medals it's a very big thing & still an achievement t/b respected. To say otherwise is to kind of disrespect those players who took part.
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What was the best possible prediction that anyone could've made about Djokivic in early '10? In '07 I predicted about 5-6 Slams. I then revised that down to 2 or 3 in '10, but after '11/12, I increased my prediction to 12 Slams. In '14-15 I raised it to 15 Slams, & it's 17 Slams & counting.
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In '10, I'd've said 2-3. By the end of '11 I was saying @ least 12. Then '13 happened (s/b forbidden by law to mention) & I thought he w/b lucky to get there. In '15-16 I thought he w/b able to surpass Fed. In '17 early-'18 I thought he'd never win another slam. Now I'm certain that I've no Idea what's going to happen.
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I've gotten made fun of on here since '16 for simply asking if Djokovic can pass Fed. If not for an 11th hr. 3 slam surge by the old man it would've already happened. Well, been =ed. For a lit'l longer. I think Djokovic's going to beat out both Fedal by the X it's all said & done in the slam race. I really do. And I honestly always have since about '14 onwards. I could obviously be wrong, but in my gut I've always thought that way. Un< sev. players suddenly step up, he's not slowing down any X soon. And I emphasize sev. B/c = one guy depriving him every now & again won't be enough to stop him from 21+, IMO.
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...Personally, Djokovic is the best I've ever watched & I've said it many X's. He's a lot > like me personality-wise > Fed's. A lot of people tend to favor those in individual sports who're similar to us. I took a liking to Fed b/c I liked how he handled himself in the '08 Wimbl. match, despite losing. I instantly became a fan that day.
I think @ the Big 3's absolute best, it's a total crapshoot affair on anything but clay when it comes to Rafa. They all have a legit. claim toward being the BOAT. There are 1000's of players we've never watched or players we're not = alive to see. So the GOAT debate has always been a bit silly to me for that reason.
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'14 Wimbl. forever changed my opinion of Djokovic; for the >er. Never hated him, but wasn't honest about how good he was before then either. In hindsight I'm sort of = happy Fed didn't win. B/c I needed that fresh perspective, it helped me take sports a lot < seriously & to just enjoy the sport again. When Fed had his resurgence it was easy to get bitterly disappointed again @ his close losses b/c we as a fandom got to taste winning again...But '14 Wimby helped me deal w/ any loss from then onwards as well; '19 Wimbl. includ. in that.
Now for Fed fans that can't stand the guy, yeah I get it. But I've always liked Djokovic - or at least not hated him. So it made the losses a lot easier to handle. SomeX's I'll get annoyed (& engage in) the bickering on here. But we're all human & that happens. lol! I'm going to miss all 3 of them when they're gone, that's for sure.
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All of the Big 3 have t/b cherished. It's so silly to keep fighting who's >er. Many of us are spending > X to hate on the opp. > cherish the wins & the incredible matches they've given us.
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I think Novak will win @ least 8 > slams easily. Fed from age 32-38 won 3 & would have won 8-9 w/o the GOAT stopping him. Novak's already aging much >er so will surpass grandpa Fed’s #'s w/ ease.***
***Djokovic won by far the most finals over ATGs in the Open Era:
ReplyDeleteDouble digit finals won vs ATGs (10+ Slam finalists)
1) Djokovic 40 (16 vs Nadal, 13 vs Fed, 11 vs Murray)
2) Lendl 29 (8 vs McEnroe, 6 vs Becker, 6 vs Wilander, 4 vs Edberg, 2 vs Connors, 2 vs Borg, 1 vs Sampras)
3) Becker 27 (14 vs Edberg, 7 vs Lendl, 3 vs Wilander, 1 vs Sampras, 1 vs Connors, 1 vs McEnroe)
-/ McEnroe 27 (11 vs Lendl, 7 vs Connors, 5 vs Borg, 2 vs Wilander, 2 vs Edberg)
5) Nadal 26 (14 vs Federer, 11 vs Djokovic, 1 vs Murray)
6) Fed 23 (10 vs Nadal, 6 vs Djokovic, 5 vs Murray, 2 vs Agassi)
7) Connors 21 (7 vs McEnroe, 5 vs Borg, 5 vs Rosewall, 4 vs Lendl)
8) Laver 17 (10 vs Rosewall, 6 vs Newcombe, 1 vs Borg)
-/ Sampras 17 (9 vs Agassi, 6 vs Becker, 2 vs Lendl)
10) Borg 16 (8 vs Connors, 4 vs McEnroe, 4 vs Lendl)
11) Edberg 15 (5 vs Becker, 3 vs Lendl, 3 vs Wilander, 1 vs Agassi, 1 vs McEnroe, 1 vs Connors, 1 vs Sampras)
12) Murray 14 (8 vs Djokovic, 3 vs Federer, 3 vs Nadal)
13) Nastase 10 (6 vs Connors, 3 vs Borg, 1 vs Laver)
- / Wilander 10 (3 vs Lendl, 3 vs Connors, 2 vs Edberg, 2 vs McEnroe)
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Sets dropped B4 playing each other:
FEDERER VS DJOKOVIC
'07 AO - Fed 0, Djokovic 1
'07 UO - Fed 2, Djokovic 3
'08 AO - Fed 2, Djokovic 0
'08 UO - Fed 2, Djokovic 4
'09 UO - Fed 2, Djokovic 2
'10 UO - Fed 0, Djokovic 2
'11 AO - Fed 3, Djokovic 1
'11 RG - Fed 0, Djokovic 1
'11 UO - Fed 1, Djokovic 1
'12 RG - Fed 4, Djokovic 5
'12 WI - Fed 3, Djokovic 1
'14 WI - Fed 1, Djokovic 4
'15 WI - Fed 1, Djokovic 2
'15 UO - Fed 0, Djokovic 2
'16 AO - Fed 1, Djokovic 2
'19 WI - Fed 3, Djokovic 2
'20 AO - Fed 5, Djokovic 1
Total sets dropped: Federer 30, Djokovic 34
NADAL VS DJOKOVIC
'06 RG - Nadal 2, Djokovic 2
'07 RG - Nadal 0, Djokovic 3
'07 WI - Nadal 4, Djokovic 5
'08 RG - Nadal 0, Djokovic 1
'10 UO - Nadal 0, Djokovic 4
'11 WI - Nadal 3, Djokovic 3
'11 UO - Nadal 1, Djokovic 3
'12 AO - Nadal 2, Djokovic 3
'12 RG - Nadal 0, Djokovic 4
'13 RG - Nadal 2, Djokovic 1
'13 UO - Nadal 1, Djokovic 3
'14 RG - Nadal 1, Djokovic 2
'15 RG - Nadal 1, Djokovic 0
'18 WI - Nadal 2, Djokovic 2
'19 AO - Nadal 0, Djokovic 2
Total sets dropped: Nadal 19, Djokovic 38
FEDERER VS NADAL
'05 RG - Fed 0, Nadal 1
'06 RG - Fed 2, Nadal 2
'06 WI - Fed 0, Nadal 2
'07 WI - Fed 1, Nadal 4
'07 RG - Fed 1, Nadal 0
'08 RG - Fed 3, Nadal 0
'08 WI - Fed 0, Nadal 1
'09 AO - Fed 2, Nadal 2
'11 RG - Fed 1, Nadal 2
'12 AO - Fed 0, Nadal 1
'14 AO - Fed 1, Nadal 1
'17 AO - Fed 5, Nadal 5
'19 RG - Fed 1, Nadal 1
'19 WI - Fed 2, Nadal 1
Total sets dropped: Fed 19, Nadal 23
---
Sets won before the SF's in their career:
-Djoker 732/877 (83.47%)
- Nadal 696/835 (83.35%)
-- Fed 953/1153 (82.66%)
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Count up #'s of USO's (post '78) compared to AO's (post '87).
HC: (2+ HC slam winners)
- Djokovic: 3-7
- Nadal: 3-1
- Federer: 5-6
- Sampras: 5-2
- Agassi: 4-2***
***Novak will have 283 wks @ #1 on 8/24/20 when the ATP ranking resumes. If he stays #1, he will tie Sampras (286 wks) on 9/14, & Fed (310 wks) on 3/1/21. W/ the adj. to ATP rankings due to Covid-19 in mind, breakdown:
ReplyDelete- 1. Djokovic 10,220
- 2. Nadal 9,850
- 3. Thiem 7,045
All pts except '19 WTF are protected til the end of yr.
- ATP provisional Cal. 2020 not counting ATP 250:
- Aug 22 Cincy Djokr(360) - Nadal(0, NP) - Thiem(0)
- Aug 31 USO D(180) - N(2000) - Thiem(10)
- Sep 14 Rome D(600) - N(1000) - T(10)
- Sep 21 Hamb. D(0) - N(0) - T(90)
- Sep 27 RG D(720) - N(2000) - T(1200)
- Oct 12 St PetersB. D(0) - N(0) - T(0)
- Oct 26 Vienna D(0) - N(0) - T(500)
- Nov 2 Paris D(1000) - N(360) - T(90)
- Nov 15 WTF D(200 not prot.) - N(400 not prot.) - T(800 not prot.)
Djokovic has a max. of 6,760 pts to gain if he plays all the tier-1 events + 3 ATP 500s (drop Monty 180 pts).
Nadal has 3,310 pts to gain assuming he plays 3 ATP 500s & 1 ATP 250 (drop Barcelona 180 pts).
Thiem has 7,210 pts to gain if he plays Hamburg & St Petersburg.
- Novak's in the driver's seat. If he wins Cincy, USO, & Rome (diff. given the schedule, Hamburg, or Petersburg would do too), & 1 RR @ WTF, he'll guarantee the YE #1 & tie Sampras for the rec. @ 6.
- Winning Cincy will make him the 1st player to win EVERY big titles twice.
- Winning USO will bring him the standalone rec. for HC GS titles.
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- Djokovic vs Nadal - 29 victories to Nadal's 26 -
- https://www.atptour.com/en/players/atp-head-2-head/novak-djokovic-vs-rafael-nadal/D643/N409 -
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The pt. is, '19 AO Nadal knew how to win big & knew how to beat Djokovic in such a match since he had done it twice @ the USO. What did '06 Djokovic have? Nothing. What chances did he have in that match? 10% @ best. No, > like 5%. Yet that win is on par w/ '15 or '19? No.
...Nadal was done competing w/ Djokovic on HC by then, so him knowing how to beat Djokovic & winning based on pre '14 is totally diff. & means nothing in the context of AO '19.
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Dominant matches vs top 10s
>65% pts won vs top 10s in the last 30 yrs:
- Djokovic 14
- Federer 6
- Sampras 4
- Nadal, Youzhny 3
Djokovic had > dom. performances than Fed, Sampras, & Nadal put together. Is this the proof that he has the highest peak ever?***
Was it mentioned that if Nole completes Cinci win to tie Nadal w/ 35 Masters 1000 titles, he'll be the only player ever to take all 14 top ATP events @ least twice? He's already the rec. holder w/ 1 Cinci crown; the 2nd will elevate him for all X! Not sure anyone will come close to being that prolific & complete a player!
ReplyDelete***So damn right. He's one of a kind. Luckily B game was enough to get past RBA in 3 sets. #35 w/b awesome, but please don’t forget the counting on wks @ #1.
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...until '11, Djokovic was seen as a 1 Slam wonder.***
Has anything been proved t/b > "wrong" > that prediction? I didn't see Sampras coming, = when he upset Wilander in the 2nd Rd. of the USO in '89! The thing was Mats had gone done precipitously since acquiring the #1 ranking in '88 so I wasn't going to make "hay" of it! Even when Pete upset Lendl in '90 & squashed McEnroe to make the USO Final, I had no reason to believe Agassi wouldn't take care of this new "whipper-snapper!" Lit'l did I know how > >er Pete was & eventually be as he eviscerated Andre in about an hr. 1/2! You just never know! In the ladies' game, Martina "pork'd" out w/ her new American ways & we thought her career w/b limited! Again, she proved everyone wrong; = w/ so much going on behind the scenes; her defection & sexuality ??ed by her & others! She overcame it all, but prob. extended herself too > playing every event possible, inevitably just keeping her above water winning 18 of 32 major finals she played! Her comp. looked a lit'l weak for a while, but she ended up having to overcome a # of ATG's along the way from Evert, King, & Goolagong to Graf, Seles, & Sanchez-Vicario! The GOAT will come out of these last 3 ATG's I feel w/ Nole prob. taking the top spot after all's said & done!
***Djokovic's success in Masters throughout his career is extraordinary. Prob. won't see anybody win them all twice for a very very long X.***
I'd say never for the X being! Nadal'll own the "clay Master" moniker while the overall "Master" is still being fought btwn Nole & Roger w/ Djokovic a clear lead in the # of titles, his consistency over the yrs, & avg'n 4-5 wins a season! Who can we imagine "ever" winning 6 Masters 1000 titles & being a finalist in 2 others in a single season? He skipped Madrid that yr.! ...35th Masters win & completion of a 2nd Golden Masters after Cinci win over Raonic!
***Yeah, his 8 Masters finals & 6 wins in '15 was insane. It's going t/b a tall order for someone to match that. Just 5 players have ever beaten Djokovic in a Masters 1000 final:
- Nadal - 6
- Murray - 5
- Fed - 3
- Zverev - 1
- Khachanov - 1
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Yeah, the ”CGM's” kind of falls apart as a concept prior to '09 since tournaments changed > frequently B4 then. But since then, the calendar has essentially been static. The vast majority of Novak’s career he’s played the same 9 Masters every yr., & won them all, which no one else has done in that same span. So makes sense to tout it as a unique achievement. Just doesn’t really compare across eras very well.***
Djokovic has a Double Golden Masters' crown to sport!" Something Fedal'll never get to see or feel!
***If Djokovic wins 2 Masters 1000 next yr., it s/b MC & Cinci. He'll have won all of them 3 X's. I'm + it wasn't his last Cinci. He'll have @ least 2 or 3 > chances in the future. He's currently tied w/ Fed @ 6 IW's titles. He also needs 1 > Canada. Nadal has 5. Madrid's rec. isn't unattainable either. He has 3, Nadal has 4. He'll obviously never have the recs in MC, Rome, & Cinci, but he has the ability to have the rec. in 6 of them (alone or tied). For Miami, Shanghaï, & Bercy it's already a done deal.***
***Djokovic DQ'd after hitting lineswoman w/ a ball. - Not sure if he's cracking under the pressure or if he's just become so into himself that it's affecting him on court.***
ReplyDeleteI say it's what's going on behind the scenes that has him stressed! He was the ATP President catching it from all sides while @ the same X having a ?? of conscience leaning towards organizing another ATP entity to deal w/ concerns of the players! Heaven knows the battles going on & the world-wide press hounding him for answers he couldn't give them in the midst of the pandemic! That's just me of course!
***M/b now people expect < from him & understand the stress he's under. Also the new players assoc. m/b cooled down a bit. Who wants to join that now? M/b having < pressure on his shoulders will do wonders for him.
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It was the politics I think & IDK why he didn't wait until after the tournament to announce it? It's too much to have to deal w/ while yo're chasing history. You are spot on on this.
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Djokovic def. Fedal in the final of their fave tournaments
Djokr d Fed in the finals of:
Wimbl. ('14,'015,'19)
Cinci ('18)
Basel ('09)
And Nadal in:
Rome ('11,'14)
M. Carlo ('13)
W/ a win @ RG he could complete the set.
Neither Fedal instead had wins in the final over Djokovic @ his best tourns: AO, Wimbl., YEC, Miami, Beijing.
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Slams won beating one of the 3 highest ranked ops:
AO: Djokovic 8 > Federer 2 > Nadal 1
RG: Nadal 10 > Djokovic 1 > Federer 0
WI: Djokovic/Federer 5 > Nadal 2
UO: Djokovic/Federer 3 > Nadal 2
Djokovic has by far the best distribution.
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Slam finals won vs players who had dropped 2 sets or < in the tournament:
DJOKOVIC 11
AO '08 Tsonga
AO '11 Murray
UO '11 Nadal
AO '12 Nadal
AO '13 Murray
WI '14 Federer
AO '15 Murray
WI '15 Federer
UO '15 Federer
UO '18 Del Potro
AO '19 Nadal
NADAL 8
RG '06 Federer
RG '07 Federer
WI '08 Federer
AO '09 Federer
RG '11 Federer
RG '13 Ferrer
RG '14 Djokovic
RG '17 Wawrinka
FEDERER 4
WI '04 Hewitt
UO '04 Roddick
WI '06 Nadal
AO '10 Murray
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Nadal comparison w/ Pete, Roger, Novak:
AO titles: Djokovic 8 > Federer 6 > Sampras 2 > Nadal 1
WI titles: Federer 8 > Sampras 7 > Djokovic 5 > Nadal 2
UO titles: Federer 5 = Sampras 5 > Nadal 4 > Djokovic 3
YEC titles: Federer 6 > Djokovic 5 = Sampras 5 > Nadal 0
#1 wks: Federer 310 > Djokovic 286 = Sampras 286 > Nadal 209
Nadal trails in everything that's not RG.***
Thx!
***Thiem wins USO over Zverev in 5 sets. As pathetic as that was, now it should loosen him up knowing that he already has a Slam in the bag. I'm only slightly concerned about the fact that he won't play any matches on clay until the FO itself. But OTOH his name alone should get him thru the 1st 3-4 Rds easily.***
After his result B4 the USO, I didn't think Thiem would get to the Qtrs! He just looked bad, weak, & hope< looking smashing rackets!
***ITA. Nadal absol. should’ve played both the USO & FO. I don’t buy his argument that HC's were tough on him.***
ReplyDeleteIf the ATP had forced his hand by losing those pts off his ranking, I have a feeling Rafa mhg the USO the X of day! Dropping 2000 pts @ this pt. might drop him out of the running for the YEC!
***Pretty bold of Nole repeating “I’m after Roger Fed’s recs” & now on the Eve of FO he reminds us that Nadal is vuln. by dropping QF in Rome to D. Schwartzman. He must badly want this FO title. M/b he knows from exp. & actual psyche-profiles these comments will > likely put his rivals on their back feet rather > lead to >er play from them. Not everyone's Jordan when it comes to vendettas.***
This is as close to "smack talk" as we'll ever get in tennis @ the top! "You ain't so tough or invulnerable! Even lit'l Diego took your ass out on clay!" Talk about bulletin board material! Jordan's mind would make up = worse intonations to psyche himself up! What'll Nadal do; overcompensate?
***He’s got the fix on Fed w/ his recs talk. 40-15 was so bitter, Fed’s reaction after WTF ‘19 said he’d had a bone to pick. He acted like he’d won a slam for a sec & steamed right towards Novak. Stole “YE #1” right out of his hands. But will "this smack" make Rafa >er or worse? Well he care? And was that lit'l “you have t/b in great shape for BO5” a subtle dig @ Rafa’s lack of match fitness? Look @ Novak pushing all the buttons this yr.!***
This m/b Nole's last real chance @ a FO w/ the NG'rs finally starting to exert themselves on the Big 3! It's about fk'n X, but I think Nadovic have another good yr. or 2 in them! They just can't & won't continue to "own it" like Nole's doing right now w/ "smoking mirrors" since he isn't playing that well! He has all kinds of drama going on behind the scenes w/ his new players' entity consisting of men & women who've signed on w/ him as co-President for now! That's a lot for the #1 player to have to deal w/ & perform well enough to stay @ the top!
***Fedal aren't some-one's whom you can poke. We know what Roger did @ YEC.***
I'm sure Nole's shedding no tears for that YEC match! "Thanks Roger; you took me out of #1 for the season! I still stole another Wimbl. right out of your pocket! You were spending the fame & $$ @ 40-15, serving for the title & I literally took it out of your fk'n mouth!"
***Big 3 have now a combined 99 M1000's! 1 > to reach yet another monumental milestone. How many M1000's = a Slam? I think the most logical way of looking @ it is to compile a spreadsheet of sets W/L + Top 10 ranked players beaten thru to 99 M1000's & compare that metric to see how many sets/top 10 ranked players on avg. en route/Slam win on avg. to get a value! Possibly +ing how many matches went to 3 sets vs 4/5 sets in slams also (diff. metric).
---
Novak has built himself quite the legacy in Rome.
- 5 Titles
-10 Finals
-11 SF's
-14 cons. QF's
-55 match wins (8 < Nadal)
There's just something about playing in the Italian capital that seems to motivate him > all the other Masters events.
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W/ the win in Rome, Nole surpassed Fed in "Big Titles pts =alent" too.
Nole:
-Grand Slams: 17 * 2.000 = 34.000
-WTF: 5 * 1.500 = 7.500
-Masters: 36 * 1.000 = 36.000
Total: 77.500
Federer:
-GS: 20 * 2000 = 40.000
-WTF: 6 * 1.500 = 9.000
-Masters: 28 * 1.000 = 28.000
Total: 77.000
Obviously, Nole's now the all X leader.
T/b thorough, after them*:
3. Nadal - 74.500
4. Sampras - 48.500
5. Lendl - 47.500
6. McEnroe - 42.500
7. Borg - 41.000
8. Connors - 36.500
9. Agassi - 36.000
10. Becker - 31.500
11. Murray - 24.500
12. Edberg - 23.000
13. Wilander - 22.000
14. Vilas - 17.500
15. Nastase - 17.000
*I assigned 1500 for Olympics & 1000 for alt. WTF. I excluded, as always in my OE lists, players who played across the 2 eras.***
***Nole has a NCYGS & Fedal don't. He'll always be in their league simply b/c of that. Sure, he may not surpass them when it's all said & done, but he'll always be right up there.***
ReplyDeleteDjokovic has acquired a ton of recs neither Roger or Rafa will ever be able to match or surpass! That was the reason people started thinking Nole was the inevitable GOAT since he was coming up so quickly on Fedal; grabbing majors in "bunches!" He seemed to leap from 8 to 15 overnite! The last 2 seasons have been a dream w/ him actually able to overcome lost X on tour w/ an elbow issue! Stealing those 2 Wimbls. & '18 USO will haunt Fedal for all X! They were all set to + to their totals from the prev. 2 seasons!
***Yeah, I'm sure Fedal have trouble sleeping b/c of that, cuz of course this is what champs do; cry in their sleep about history.***
I'm sure they do or they wouldn't keep "hanging on" like Roger trying to hold onto relevance in his waning yrs! It does bother them that Djokovic owns recs they'll never see!
***No one is the 3rd wheel of the Fedalovic era IMO. They're all too close.
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Nole's on course to getting a rec. =ing 6 YE #1's atm. How anyone can call that a 3rd wheel is beyond me.
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The only thing Fedal fans can hold onto is the slender slam lead. Novak is ahead of them in virtually every other metric.
Djokovic has already done enough t/b regarded in the tier 1 cat. like them. I sense a lot of panic. It seems to scare them @ the prospect of Djokovic having most slams & being remembered as the greatest.
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Djokovic hasn’t lost a proper match this yr. though. Yes, Thiem & the rest are getting >er, but Djoko's still very good.
Fed won 3 slams in his mid 30s so I can def. see Djokovic doing that too. Djoko was unlucky Wimbl. didn’t go ahead, but m/b Fed w/b guttered it didn’t too; as that mhb his best chance to get 21.
However, going forward Novak w/b a big fave @ AO & Wimbl. for next 2-3 yrs @ least. This FO Novak has a >er chance > normal due to draw & conditions. At USO Novak hadn’t been as strong or been cursed w/ injury or defaults. It’s tougher for him to win that & French, but he can still sneak 1 > USO & m/b 1 > FO.
Currently Novak has dom. this shorter yr. Only losing 1 match which wasn’t a proper loss so it seems he can stay @ top for a while yet. ...USO has been a good slam for Rafa, but I still think going forward Djokovic will feel like he’s got used up < mileage, < injuries, a yr. younger > Nadal to stay @ top for longer. Djoko body's in good shape & his flexibility can help him stay near top.
Djoko & Nadal are a lot younger > Fed. Rafa just needs 1 > to match him & could get it this 2 wks, but w/b his toughest. Novak, if he wins this FO will have his pet slam next & could have 19 early next yr. & only 1 < Fed.
Nothing is certain in sport, but it seems highly unlikely Fed hangs on to his rec. if he stays on 20. The only way he can for me is if he shocks everyone & wins say 2 >. Djokovic has some achievements like the double Masters set, 36 Masters , 300+ wks @ #1, 6 YE #1's, & they're all same or > what Fed has done.
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Nole most clutch player in tennis history!
Nole vs Fed H2H is 27 (+ WO) - 23. The > important moment or match the > advantage goes to Nole!
H2H: 27 (+ WO) - 23 (45%)
- All finals: 13 (+ WO) - 6 (30%)
GS matches: 11 – 6 (35%)
- GS F: 4 - 1 (20%)
WTF: 3 (+ WO) - 3 (43%)
- WTF F: 2 (+ WO) - 0 (0%)
All sets: 73 - 74 (50%)
-non-decisive sets: 58 - 69 (54%)
- Deciding sets: 14–5 (26%)
TB sets: 16-12 (43%)
-non-decisive TB: 12 - 12 (50%)
- Deciding TB's: 4-0 (0%)***
It's a wonder the word "clutch" is being invoked concerning Fed when the biggest chokes occurred vs Nole sev. diff. X's when the match was his for the taking!
***The FO this yr. reminds me of my HS playing tennis team days; brks of serve buffet.***
ReplyDeleteFor the most part serving was the last thing really learned in basic tennis "back in the day!" I didn't have a prob.; m/b the long arms! Most kids just didn't have the confidence in taking that full, extended wind-up to serve, preferring to "pooch tap in" to get the ball in the box! It was embarrassing to see @ X's! How'd they make a team? All our members were proficient in every stroke, but a lot of HS kids were wk-end warriors & prob. just thrown out there to field a team @ the last min.; boys & girls!
***Glad to see Thiem come thru in str. sets. Def. needs to keep these matches short given what his draw looks like.***
...Why'd these people = fly over to Paris? Now Serena's struggling vs some girl that's only won 2 matches on clay!
***Novak will bail Boris out of his bankruptcy troubles.***
Novak already tried to help; Boris just too much of an idiot to stay out of trouble! ...Divorces didn't help, but w/ all his good fortune, I have nothing for him! He frittered it all away being a "man/child!" He may not have had the best role models w/ Ion Tiriac managing him early, but he can't use him as a scapegoat after all these yrs!
***No, I don't actually. When did Djokovic surpass Federer? Which match?***
OTTH it mhb @ the "walkover" @ the YEC final Fed couldn't play due to working so hard to overcome Wawrinka! Regard<, it's been yrs! Nole has owned both for the most part & Fedal fans have to scratch to come up w/ wins for their man to overcome their dread that eventually he w/b The GOAT!
***But if Nole owns them &'s #1, why isn't he the GOAT already? If he's >er > the slam leaders, he s/b GOAT, no?***
Seek serious help babe! It's so hard having discussions w/ some of you! Are you one of those people who give Roger cover for his losses due to being 5-6 yrs older? Why should Nole have taken over all Fed's recs if he had so many > yrs to accum. them? For the love of Gawd try to @ least be consistent w/ the BS!
***So, basically you are saying all wins aren't =, but somehow all losses are =. Djokovic gets some sort of extra credit when he beats big 3 guy, but he never gets penalized when he loses versus <er guys in GS finals like Wawrinka & Murray.***
I try t/b as fair as possible! I was on the Fedal bandwagon early on! It was so boring I stopped watching men's tennis until Djokovic broke up the party! He introduced himself by defeating a rel. young & prime Fed "down under" & took a few HC victories off Nadal! By '11 it was a done deal w/ the rivalry going in one direction = w/ those isolated wins of Fedal over Nole @ the USO, FO, & YEC! It can't be ignored = if age isn't taken into consideration! I don't have a horse in this race really; BORG will always be my fave! Safin is a sentimental pick as one of the most talented players ever! As for "wins being = or not," history won't GAF; only we do now b/c we're living it! A 100 yrs down the line only the cold, hard #'s will matter! No one will bring up their age disparity, or = their diff. styles! By then, things w/b so homogenized, no one'll recognize there was a real diff. in surfaces once upon a X!
***Yeah, I get what you mean, it's very boring to me for the past yrs apart from Fed's brief resurgance in '17. I don't watch it much for yrs. I'm sick of the "Big 3." That's why I came back now due to Thiem & Zverev. Finally something new & all the talk of Thiem now being able to m/b dethrone them. I don't get how after 12 FO wins, people would want to see another? After 6-7, who cares? Yeah, nobody will care about details. Only slams w/b remembered; agreed.***
***Do you think Novak has currently stronger oppo.?
ReplyDelete---
Novak came when Fedal was on top. It was as hard comp. as it could ever be. Still he prob. gonna finish w/ most wks #1 & > slams; not sure about slams actually. You cant predict anything @ this moment in '20. - But since '14-15 he has had it very easy & that's the period in which he accum. most of his achievements.
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But sure, nice of you to hide the context. He was only @ 6 slams when Fedal were the top dogs. - You are correct. His comp. is Thiem, Dimitrov, Goffin, PC Busta, Raonic, Sandgren, Delbonis, Krajinovic, Basilashvili, Travaglia, Duckworth, Federico Coria, Caruso, Denis Novak, T. Monteiro, Sonego, Djere, Mager, Zverev, Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Shapovalov, FAA. If this was the opp. of Fedal, they'd held the #1 spot till retirement age, which is currently around 67 yrs old.
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Yeah, Noole had some incredibly tough yrs in '11-13, but aside from a few noteworthy tournaments, his comp. has been on the decline since '14 & practically fell off a cliff in '16. I think I'd put their comps like this (starting from '03):
Very strong: '12
Strong: '09, '11, '08, '07, '13, '05 (...reasonable arg. for putting any of these up w/ '12)
Good: '04, '14, '15
Avg: '03
Mediocre: '06, '10, '19
Weak: '16, '17, '18, '20 (so far)
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People are way too strong in recent era. It has it's comparisons. We're not = in the weakest era ever.
- YEC seeds in '00 vs '19
1. Safin vs Djokovic
2. Guga vs Nadal
3. Sampras vs Federer
4. Norman vs Thiem
5. Kafelnikov vs Medvedev
6. Hewitt vs Tsitsipas
7. Corretja vs Zverev
8. Agassi vs Berretini
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w/ the exception of 4 & 7, all the other guys in in 00 list reached #1 in ranking w/o waiting for someone to retire.***
***Djokovic Elo King:
ReplyDelete-Most wins vs Elo rating > 2400
1) Djokovic 36
2) Nadal 25
3) McEnroe 19
-vs Elo rating > 2200
1) Djokovic 147
2) Federer 122
3) Nadal 109
-in Slams vs Elo rating > 2400
1) Djokovic 13
2) Nadal 11
3) Wilander 8
-in Slams vs Elo rating > 2200
1) Djokovic 42
2) Fed / Nadal 38
- Djokovic's the undisputed best @ beating top players.
---
-vs Elo > 2400
1) Borg 78.95%
2) Djokovic 55.38%
3) Cash, Coric, Zverev 50.00%
-vs Elo > 2200
1) Borg 70.80%
2) Djokovic 66.52%
3) Becker 63.11%
-in Slams vs Elo > 2400
1) Becker 100.00%
2) Cash 75.00%
3) Wilander 61.54%
-in Slams vs Elo > 2200
1) Borg 72.41%
2) Laver 71.43%
3) Sampras 69.57%
---
-vs Elo > 2400 (min. 10 matches)
1) Borg 78.95%
2) Djokovic 55.38%
3) Zverev 50.00%
-vs Elo > 2200 (min. 20 matches)
1) Borg 70.80%
2) Djokovic 66.52%
3) Becker 63.11%
-in Slams vs Elo > 2400 (min. 5 matches)
1) Wilander 61.54%
2) Nadal 61.11%
3) Djokovic 56.52%
-in Slams vs Elo > 2200 (min. 10 matches)
1) Borg 72.41%
2) Sampras 69.57%
3) Djokovic and Nadal 66.67%
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All criterias say Djokovic had tougher comp.; give it up.***
IDK where the debate c/b? It's been quite obvious for yrs that Djokovic had the tougher comp.; needing to overcome 2 ATG's while asserting his own ability taking over as #1 in '11! Fed tech. "vultured" a bunch of majors/titles w/ lit'l in the way of consistent comp. B4 Nadovic! There were plenty of able-bodied pros, but they were in & out of top form due to age & injury! I give all due credit to Fed & = helped spin early losses to Rafa when there was no true rivalry! It's always been a media affectatious creation calling Fedal the greatest rivalry of all X! It's not = the best of "this X," but the 'Tennis Intelligentcia' will continue to perpetrate that fraud! After all's said & done, most of the top #'s w/b under Djokovic's column & there's lit'l anyone can do about it! It took a pandemic & a DQ to = slow down his ascent!
***Djokovic has vultured extensively since '14 w/ lit'l comp. in his way. All this fairy tale of overcoming 2 ATGs' old news, buddy. '11-13 was a long X ago. His last 11 slams haven't been won vs that kind of comp.
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That is a silly argument. Federer won 3 slams after '14 & obviously Nadal's still winning them. Djokovic for whatever reason has also tended to play > "Top 10" players. ELO's imperfect & you can always cherry-pk. things that make it look off, but it's a lot > obj. > Fed, Nadal, or Djokovic fans when debating GOAT.
Ultimately, the unsophisticated will just look @ Slam wins; the > sophisticated other big titles when all top players compete, rankings, h2h, ELO, & so on. Fed fans are likely to have a tough next few yrs. b/c he likely will lose the slam rec., has already lost the big titles, &'ll soon lose the wks. @ #1. Ultimately, the GOAT debate by > people using full accomplishments will put Nadal & Djokovic 1 & 2, or 2 & 1, w/ Fed 3rd or m/b = 4th if they throw in Laver.
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BTW, if Nadovic had never come along to threaten Fed's slam rec., they'd be talking about how lit'l Fed's game has dropped in '19 b/c he's still winning @ a high level. That's why you need an objective (b/c it's just based on wins) measure instead of fanboy evals. which are biased.***
***I thought Djokovic never defeated Nadal in Paris.***
ReplyDeleteIt's just one of those matches tennis "intelligentsia" refuses to = acknowledge if they can help it! Rafa was in the midst of a malaise, dropping all kinds of matches to people he never would've in the past! I thought he had played one 5 set'r too many & was "done" both physically & mentally! In '15 it was all about Djokovic after his resurgence @ Wimbl. the yr. B4! Nadovic was in the mid. of another series of matches where Nole had won 7 str. matches for the 2nd X! Nadal kept it close in the 1st set of their Q-fl. match, but Nole wasn't missing @ the X! Djokovic lost final to Wawrinka in 4 unable to complete his Nole-Slam til the following season!
***Has anyone here actually besides the 70 yo grandpas who watched Laver? I haven’t.***
Well I don't have grandkids, but closing in on 70 I certainly have to + pre-Open stars Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Kramer, Tilden, & HOAD! I mainly + Rosewall & Hoad b/c of their success vs Laver; sorta like Fed who has 2 very comp. detractors in Nadovic!
***Novak making this match very complicated for himself. Tsitsipas was superb on BP's in whole 4th set, amazing play.***
Novak's w/o a doubt the > unlucky player! It's not like he's playing poorly; Stefanos has elevated his standard, but all those missed BP's is typical & drives me insane! The opp. just legit. pulls it out; nothing Nole did to hurt himself > of the X!
***Djokovic has now reached the final of all 4 Slams over the age of 30. He's prob. the 1st since Laver to do it, but I'd need someone really good w/ stats to confirm.
Rosewall was 34 @ the begin'n of Open Era & reached all 4 GS finals.
RG'68 (34) & '69 (35) - Wimbl.'70 (36) & '74 (40)
USO'70 (36) '74 (40) - AO'71 (37) & '72 (38)
He tech. accomplished these after Laver ('69) in '71 w/ his 1st AO Final in OE.
It's not strictly nec. cts only the Open Era, he became Pro @ 23, so he never won a Slam "after 30" before the OE.
So he's the 3rd after Laver & Rosewall. I'm pretty sure only Roger (Miss RG) & Rafa (Miss Wimbl.) featured this achievement in 3 out of 4 GS.
- If Nole wins FO'20, he's the undisputed GOAT. He'll have DCGS, NCYGS, DM, TMT, TEM, BTW, WNO, YNO, H2H. Perfect in all respects.
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I still maintain it was completely reasonable to w/o Rafa after '16. - I did too. I also maintain it was reasonable to w/o Fed after '13 & Djokovic in '18. We forget how superhuman their comebacks were, = Nadal's despite not being as dramatic or emotional as Fed & Nole's.
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You'd literally have t/b a foaming @ the mouth lunatic to believe Nadal was coming back, b/c there was lit. 0 rational reason to expect it w/ absol. no precedent in the game's history. Same w/ Djokovic 2 yrs after t/b fair.
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Novak will overtake Nadal in GOAT race if he wins RG'20:
Most wks @ #1 in history
Most yrs @ #1 in history
Most Major titles
Most M-1000's
NCYGS
2 x CGS
Win vs clay God in RG finals
>er H2H
Having 1 slam > can't cover for so > >er career portfolio, it's not = close.***
...Most will have to resign the fact that Djokovic'll end up w/ > of the top recs; owning > right now! Taking all 14 ATP major events @ least twice may never be accom. again in our lifeX! Fed's X's coming to an end & Rafa's resume too imbalanced w/ "clay success!"
***When Novak & Nadal‘s level drop, it'll happen sooner or later. Then the 2nd & 3rd line can take over & win something. So Thiem does, only due to not having to play 1 of them in F @ the USO. But They should never forget who the real masters were.***
We keep hoping, but it hasn't happened yet! A miraculous resurgence seems to occur if any of the 'Big 3' weaken; = for a few months!
***I think it's plain to see that these 3 (Fedalovic) took the game to such a >er level, we need to quit worrying about the following gens.***
ReplyDelete...Fedal's perpetual "hanging on" started bothering me though; really hoping for that NG to take over & it hasn't = come close to occurring! Seemed like a good X to pack it in when he failed to win GOLD @ the '12 Olympics! He haunted the tour for over 5 yrs B4 finally winning these last 3 majors keeping him barely ahead of Nadovic! Never been a fan of Nadal's even as a kid; so many reasons he just rubbed me the wrong way! I started apprec. Djokovic in '11 when it appeared he took over the top rank! I was hoping for good, but it flipped around the 3 of them throughout the decade w/ Nole holding a mild advantage! If he had won this FO would've locked it up making him the BOAT owning all 14 major ATP titles @ least twice so far! Fedal don't = come close IMO!
***Slam winning streak or not, Nadal was a dom. champ @ the X he took him down in '11.***
Nole personally stopped Rafa from having a "Fed Streak" of holding the #1 ranking & winning > of the top tourneys over a few yrs! Nadal had owned '10 & was in final after final in '11, but stopped each X by Djokovic taking 7 str. from the Spaniard, culm. in the '12 AO marathon of 5:53!
***I hope Djokovic defends AO to get back on track, but that w/b fair given that Nadal had no pressure to defend pts @ RG while also keeping the 2k from USO despite not showing up. - Djokovic needs to manage his sched. >er. He needs to put his focus into the other 3 slams where he has the best chance. I think hopefully he'll do this once he gets the wks @ #1.***
The law of avgs told us it was Nole's X today in Paris!
***I’ll be happy if Novak wins 1 slam next yr.***
I'm not greedy! The way I see it, everything's gravy after 32! The Big 3 are still racking up recs well into their 30's so I see no reason for the run to stop next yr!
***Maybe Thiem'll take over next yr. Who knows?
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It’s not inevitable that Rafa will pass Roger, and in some ways I’d be thrilled if they both stayed on 20. Their bromance seems very real, it’s unique in sports, & they’ve both contributed immeasurably to tennis. So both of them finishing on 20 seems fairly apt. Rafa might pass him, but who knows? Next yr. might j/b that season when there’s new faces everywhere & the old faces look really old. This wouldn’t be a bad thing.***
Yep, Nadal doesn't want or need Djokovic to brk up their private lit'l party @ the top of the rankings! Make no bones about it Nole's interrupted their era of >ness in so many ways!
***Well, in some ways I think of Novak as being of a different, later gen. to Fed. Murray & Djoker are just enough yrs younger t/b included among the next legion of stars. Rafa's a diff. gen. to Fed too, but he was so precocious & alpha, he nudged aside Rogers contemporaries and inadequate rivals to become the de facto heir, aged barely 18. But Rafa straddles 2 eras: once he’d replaced roger @ the top, Novak hit his stride, so Rafa fought a battle on 2 fronts, so to speak. All this is to say that = though “his X has long gone”, Roger had remained eminent, & Rafa too, is still steadily fighting his cause. Novak as well, for the pedants, although we may look back @ the yrs '08-12 as being the peak for the Big 3.***
I'll let you get away w/ that, but hope you won't end up being one of those "hatahs" that say Nole won over "broken down old men" & "totally out of it!" Some out here actually have the nerve to use such verbiage as "vulturing" titles/majors! All I know is when I was in my 30's I remained comp. & could school the kiddies! Even though Nole's '15 had > impressive #'s, the comp. was = tougher for his '11 campaign where Roger was good enough to stop "the run" on clay in Paris in the SF of RG!
***It's amazing the USO debacle has taught Nole's fans zilch. Why are you awarding him 311 wks @ #1 as well as another YE #1 when neither accomplishment has been achieved? The Hubris, as always is off the charts. - Seems you were right.***
ReplyDeleteAbout what? IDK how anyone else c/b considered #1? Djokovic won AO, holds onto his Wimbl. pts, & was a finalist @ FO! He also took lone 2 Masters events played so far! Who TF else should take YE #1? Djokovic's plan to play Vienna in 2 wks will settle it anyway! I can see Rafa actually trying to succeed in this part of the yr. when his rec. is as dismal as c/b w/ few appearances @ indoor Masters finals like Paris & has no YEC wins to his name! Fedovic have about a dozen btw them w/ > to come likely!
***Djokovic has a target to shoot for & will achieve it by any means nec.; = if securing YE #1 by taking WC @ Vienna. To Hell w/ honor. Fed didn't have that b/c he was the man. He'd have > wks if he had known that he needed to. No one has a crystal ball that can tell the future.***
HONOR? WTF are you talking about? That's hilarious! Fed playing those 250 & 500 events over the yrs. accum. titles & padding his #1 rank leads & you think Novak's w/o honor? I'm speech<!
***LOL! Wearing giant neck patches & 3 masks while getting elbow rubs only to make it to RG final like it never happened. LMAO. Then 2 days later take a WC for Vienna to vulture pts; all the while for months stalking Fed w/ talk of recs.
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Also @Fiero425, when Fed was winning those & padding his #1, he was also winning every major 'cept RG. Djokovic's losing is getting DQ'd & bageled by Nadal in majors.
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Djokovic is 37-2 this yr. He has won 95% of his matches. Who else do you think s/b #1? - Djokovic deserves it, but he need not be this desperate & don't know how many will care w/ the rankings race this yr.
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There shouldn’t be a YE #1 b/c there was no full season. It’s 1/2 a season w/ players skipping tourns. b/c of COVID-19, w/ most of the grass & clay seasons cancelled.***
Well then whoever takes #1 for the season w/b in the same boat I hope! Who else should take it w/ an AO win, a FO final, &'s taken the 2 lone Masters events played so far this season? Should it go to Fed who hasn't returned from the CV-19 break? Maybe Rafa who skipped the USO & only defended his FO title? Please!
***I find it odd Nole lost to Murray @ Wimbl., but beat Fed 3 X's.***
Match-ups! They're also buds! Nole's always been the most vulnerable of the "Big 3" to players outside of the group! Amazing how Djokovic has a winning rec. over Fedal, but has had trouble in major finals vs Murray & Wawrinka who almost never beat the other 2! It someX's just doesn't make any sense!
***Since '11:
ReplyDeleteMost cons. wks @ #1:
Djokovic 122 (July '14 - Nov.'16)
Djokovic 53 (July '11 to July '12)
Djokovic 52 (Nov.'18 to Nov.'19)
Djokovic 48 (Nov.'12 to Oct.'13)
Most cons. slams won:
Djokovic 4 (WI'15 - RG'16)
Djokovic 3 (WI'11 to AO'12)
Djokovic 3 (WI'18 to AO'19)
For a dec., neither Nadal, Fed, Murray, or any other player have been able to get close to Djokovic's level of dom.
---
Nole vs tour '11-20 (last 10 yrs):
YE #1: 6, 60% (nearest comp: Rafa 3, 30%)
wks as #1: 300, 60% (nearest comp.: Rafa 127, 26%)
ITF Champ: 6 * (m/b 7), 60-70% (nearest comp.: Rafa 2, 20%)
GS: 16, 41% or 42% of those he partic. in (nearest comp.: Rafa 11, 28% or 32% of those he partic. in)
WTF*: 4, 40% (nearest comp., 3 players- 1 each)
Masters: 31, 37%, or 43% of those he partic. in (nearest comp.: Rafa 17, 20% or 27% of those he partic. in)
4 Slams in a row
Double Golden Masters
Pts rec.: 16,950
H2H vs Fed: 21-10, 68%
H2H vs Rafa*: 22-11, 67%
---
YE #1: Rafa 2 vs Nole 2, 50% each
wks as #1: Rafa 68 (37%) vs Nole 78 (42%) vs Muzza 32 (17%)
GS: 6 (40%) vs Nole 5 (33%) vs Fed 3 (20%)
WTF: 0 (0%) vs Cici, Zverev, Dimi -> 1 (33%) each
Masters: 7 (23%) vs Nole 6 (20%) vs Fed 4 (13%)
H2H vs Nole: 4 - 3, GS: 1 - 2
H2H vs Fed: 1 - 5 (+ WO), GS: 1 - 2
H2H vs Big 3: 5 - 8 (+ WO), GS 2 - 4
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Yeah, I'm kinda over the Big 3 now, to a large degree, & impatient for the youngsters to show their mettle. It almost devalues the achievements of the "Big 3" that in their dotage they're still pushing the wit< kids around. I don't think it's got to do w/ physicality, it's mental.***
I've been saying it for yrs! I was so apathetic towards Fedal 10 yrs ago, I wasn't = paying attn. to men's tennis! It went on for yrs w/ both owning the tour w/ no real brk. til Novak showed up! That got me back interested in watching the game on TV again! There has t/b some doubt to make it worthwhile un< you just want to see your fave win everything in sight! W/ Novak there's always some doubt believe it or not! He's been the most vuln. of the "Big 3;" dropping majors & 2 YEC's thru upsets when he was expected to + to his resume & rec.!
***I just realized this today, but Nadal has now the rec. for > cons. wks in the Top 10 w/ 789 cons. wks & counting.***
Well m/b Rafa'll hold onto 1 or 2 recs; obscure recs B4 Novak takes over the major ones in the next 2-3 yrs!
***Well the > interesting thing is to see if Medvedev can wake up for the last couple of HC tourns. If he or Tsitsipas can do well, @ say, Vienna & Paris, they have a chance @ overtaking Fed @ #4. The prob. w/ Tsitsipas' he has ATP Chp. YE pts to defend (1300 pts) so if he falters @ the end, he could lose over 1000 pts in London. Just 1 > win in Vienna & Novak’s 6th YE #1 is secure. And > wks @ #1 also raising.
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Novak secures the #1 ranking for a 6th X matching Pete Sampras' rec.***
A real joke that this is = in ??! How does 1 skip months of play, gets upset early in Rome, wins FO, but's in line for #1?
***Settle, Novak'll still get his #1 ranking for 6th YE. I'm curious to see what the ATP proposes for the rankings in '21? COVID-19 is not going away. This will affect some tournaments that can't comply w/ the COVID-19 protocols in place. ASB tournament in Auckland for both the men & women in '21 have already been cancelled. Also a lot of players might not want to travel which is understandable.***
***Nole's only won 1 clay slam.***
ReplyDeleteTis true; most > players have a deficiency, but @ least he has 1! So many don't have a title or 3 missing off their resumes! Nadal's still waiting to luck into a YEC as many yrs as he's played & qual.! Borg played 4 USO Finals on 2 diff. surfaces & just couldn't get over the hump! Fed'll have to "go on" w/ just 1 FO himself, but @ least he got 1; though a signif. asst. by Soderling who elim. Nadal early in '09!
***The > I hear from Djokovic, the > I miss Roger. Tired of all bulletin bd. material.***
Djokovic started threatening the Fedal "mythos" 10 yrs ago w/ that comeback @ the USO from 2 MP's down in the SF! Roger & Rafa had a huge lead over this newcomer who dared impose his will in the destiny of GOAT-dom! By winning Majors & Masters-1000 events in bunches in this last dec., many prognosticators have already started leaning toward Nole being the >est! The so called experts sight his consistency, versatility on all surfaces, & how quickly he's caught up to Fedal! He's already overtaken them in Masters 1000 wins & the H2H comp. fell yrs ago! The wks @ #1 will also fall to Nole; it's only a matter of X while he still has opps. to catch up in the Major's ct.!
***Djokovic drops QF match to Sonego 2 & 1. He's already secured #1 ranking for YE so he was done. Novak won Paris last yr. so he couldn't pick up any> pts playing this yr. He can pick up > pts @ the ATP Finals.
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...I didn't see the match, but heard the kid played lights-out. Let's hope it doesn't go to his head & that m/b it's the start of a useful career for him.***
Nole accomp. what he wanted! Back in the day, by the X players got to Paris, they were on their last legs physically & emotionally! Upsets like this occurred; esp. if the player didn't want t/b there! I've seen it happen dozens of X's; right here in Chgo. Lendl dropped his 1st Rd. match! He allowed them to use his name & celebrity, flew in for a few pics, hit a couple balls w/ some clown he didn't know, & was on a plane back to Conn. the same day! It was mid winter here! If he's going t/b freezing, it might as well be back @ home! I didn't blame him, but it happens! Nole prob. couldn't GAF about the embarrassment of dropping this match to some nobody! It's worse when losses happen for real like Sampras going out in the 2nd Rd. of Wimbl. back in '02 to Bastl!
***A lot of people said Novak tanked the match? ...Sonego did play great tennis & deserved his win.
- Stats W 26 UFE 12
- Novak W 7 UFE 25...***
Well it's not one of those "gambling tanks!" He did what he had to do & that was to at least make the QF of Vienna to put the YE #1 ranking out of reach! Unofficially Rafa could try & kill himself by winning Paris & taking a WC in Sofia to keep it close, but again, he'd have to go on & win the YEC which he's never come close! I'd welcome him to try! I think it'd wind up being a repeat of '09 where he lost all 3 of his RR matches in embarrassing fashion! IDK why he = showed up aside from avoiding a fine!
***Well I was watching Rafa & Wawrinka @ practice @ Paris earlier so Rafa has not taken a WC into Sofia! As I said before Novak & his team made a smart decision. He w/b fresh & rested for the ATP Finals.
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Even these days players limped into Paris. That's the sched. Even w/ COVID-19 there's been a lot of WD's. There's a lock-down in Paris due to a 2nd wave of COVID-19. Players are lucky this Masters 1000 wasn't cancelled. No fans w/b allowed due to the lock down. Novak accompl. what he wanted to achieve; smart scheduling on his behalf & his team. He w/b fresh for the ATP Finals in London not playing Paris this yr.***
***Hard see'n Djokovic losing #1 rank if he stays focused to get to ~350 wks. M/b go for YE #1 for the 7th X & then in '22 focus on slams & a few other big tourns.***
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong w/ that! ...We'll see if he can do it 1 > X to overcome the leads of Fedal!
***I do think aiming for that 7th YE #1 next yr. s/b a priority, of course after the slams, but the window for that 7th rec. brk'n YE #1 likely c/b = slams. Basically stay focused & go for it.***
Rublev's had an amazing season & I can't be happier for him!
***Djokovic currently owns 17 GS singles titles, 3 < his chief rivals Fedal, but b/c Djokovic's majors...somewhere in that 5-6 range, all assuming health.
If Djokovic ends up tied w/ 1 or both of the other members of the “Big 3,” he deserves the nod as the GOAT based on H2H, YE #1, Masters 1000 titles. “It’s a really hard argument to make to say that Novak isn't the BOAT if he ends up @ least tied w/ the other 2,” says A-Rod, Courier, & Annacone.
Djokovic leads Nadal 29-27 in H2H matchups &'s ahead of Fed 27-23. He'll finish '20 @ #1 for the 6th X, tying Sampras, &'s oldest YE #1 ever. If he holds the #1 spot, he'll pass Fed’s mark of 310 wks @ #1 on Mar. 8. Djokovic's the only man to win all 9 MS-1000 titles @ least twice & currently leads Nadal 36-35 after winning Rome in Sept.
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Weak era prob. started around '03.***
I'll go > extreme & say 2000 since Sampras' reign had ended & he went over 2 yrs w/o winning a tourn. til his last @ '02 USO! Hewitt c/b a beast & had plenty of heart, but no real weapons so him being #1 for any real length of X proves how weak things had become! Him winning Wimbl. over Nalbandian tells it all! That happened B4 the homogenization of courts so there couldn't haven't have been too much pressure on Lleyton to hold the top rank for well over a yr.!
***Lleyton's the weakest multi-YE #1 by far for the reasons you mention.
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...But 4 & 5-setters tend to provide much > of those classic matches.***
I love when Djokovic's in "Beast-Mode" & annihilates his opp. = if they're playing well! I can watch'19 AO &'16 Qatar Finals over & over! They were beat-downs, but Nadal played well enough to win over anyone else! The commentators were lauding how Rafa had held serve over 50+ X's in a row @ that AO! Nole just wasn't missing anything in those matches & took him down hard!
***Big 3's seasons w/ > wins over Top 5:
1)'15 Djokr 16
2)'11 Djokr/'12 Djokr 13
The 3 Best were from Djokovic.
Big 3's Seasons w/ > wins over Top 10:
1)'15 Djokr 31
2)'12 Djokr /'13 Djokr /'13 Nadal 24
5)'11 Djokr /'16 Djokr 21
5 of 6 Best from Djokr.
Big 3's Seasons w/ the > wins over Top 20:
'15 Djokr 41
'13 Djokr 34
'13 Nadal /'16 Djokr 33
'11 Djokr 31
4 of 5 Best from Djokr.
Big 3's Seasons w/ the > wins over Top 50:
1)'13 Djokr 58
2)'12 Djokr 57
3)'15 Djokr 56
4)'11 Djokr 55
The 4 Best from Djokr.
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Most Slams won consec:
Fed 12 (WI04-UO04, WI05-AO06, WI06-AO07, WI07-UO07, RG09-WI09)
Djokr 10 (WI11-AO12, WI15-RG16, WI18-AO19)
Sampras 7 (WI93-AO94, WI95-UO95, UO96-AO97)
Borg 6 (RG78-WI78, RG79-WI79, RG80-WI80)
Nadal 5 (RG08-WI08, RG10-UO10)
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Winning a slam @ least 5 yrs in a row:
Fed: 2 ('03-07 wim) ('04-08 USO)
Borg: 1 ('76-80 wim)
Nadal: 1 ('10-14 FO)
Djokr: 0
Winning a slam @ < 4 X's in a row:
Nadal: 3 ('05-08 FO) ('10-14 FO) ('17-20 FO)
Borg: 2 ('76-80 wim) ('78-81 FO)
Fed: 2: ('03-07 wim) ('04-08 USO)
Djokovic: 0***
***Djokovic has won every signif. tourn. twice.
ReplyDeleteAnd he's only 3 titles away from a 3-peat (3rd FO, Cinci., MC titles)
His 1st & 2nd win:
MAJORS
AO ('08 &'11)
FO ('16 &'21)
Wimbl. ('11 &'14)
U.S.O. ('11 &'15)
MASTERS 1000s
IW ('08 &'11)
Miami ('07 &'11)
MC ('13 &'15)
Madrid ('11 &'16)
Rome ('08 &'11)
Canada ('07 &'11)
Cinci. ('18 &'21)
Shanghai ('12 &'13)
Paris ('09 &'13)
Yr-End Chps.
YEC ('08 &'12)
Where Fedal stand:
Nadal's missing 9 titles (2nd AO, 1st & 2nd Miami, 2nd Cinci., 2nd Shanghai, 1st & 2nd Paris, & 1st & 2nd YEC titles)
Fed's missing 6 titles (2nd FO, 1st & 2nd MC, 1st & 2nd Rome, & 2nd Paris titles)
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Times Big 3 were defending champs of 4/3 Slams?
Times they were defending champs of 4 slams:
Djokovic 1 (after RG'16)
Fedal 0 X's
X's they were defending champs of 3 slams:
Fed 11 (after UO'04, AO'06, RG'06, WI'06, UO'06, AO'07, RG'07, WI'07, UO'07, WI'09, AO'10)
Djokovic 10 (after UO'11, AO'12, RG'12, UO'15, AO'16, RG'16, WI'16, AO'19, RG'19, WI'19)
Nadal 4 X's (AO'09, UO'10, AO'11, RG'11)
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Hey, I bet no one pt'd out that Djokovic beat Murray instead of having to deal w/ Peak Nadal - OTOH Djokovic had Fed/Murray on grass/HC while Fed had Roddick/Gravongibabis.***
They'll never give it up that Djokovic had it the toughest w/ 3 serious contenders when he won his majors while Fedal handled their pigeons! It's pathetic!
***Djokovic's clearly the best. Managed t/b defending 3 slams 10 X's despite facing ATG his whole career. - Djokovic's comp. was the weakest of Big 3.***
Seek serious psychological help my friend! Your mind's truly fk'd up! J/b Nole beat 30+ top 10'rs in '15 doesn't mean they were comp.! Why hasn't Fedal = come close to some of Nole's recs if he's such a slouch? Get over yourself!
***Both owned main rivals @ their top 2 slams:
Sampras - Agassi Wimbl. h2h -> 2 - 0
Sampras - Agassi USO. h2h -> 4 - 0
Djokovic - Fedal Wimbl. h2h -> 5 - 2
Djokovic - Fedal AO. - h2h -> 6 - 1
Sampras King of 90s tennis, Djokovic King of 21st Century tennis
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Major Wins over the other Big 3:
AO Djokovic 6 > Federer 2
RG Djokovic 2 > Federer 1
WI Djokovic 5 > Federer 4
UO Djokovic 4 > Federer 3
AO Djokovic 6 > Nadal 3
RG Nadal 13 > Djokovic 2
WI Djokovic 5 > Nadal 2
UO Djokovic 4 > Nadal 2
Djokovic had > wins > Fed @ all 4 Slams & > Nadal @ 3/4 Slams.***
*** ---
ReplyDelete'08 Djokr 62-13 (82.7%) <'11 Nadal 69-9 (88.5%)
'09 Fed 64-11 (84.5%) <'12 Fed 69-9 (88.5%)
'10 Djokr 69-16 (79.2%) <'13 Murray 42-7 (85.7%)
'11 Djokr 63-9 (87.5%) >'14 Nadal 47-9 (83.9%)
'12 Fed 70-11 (86.4%) <'15 Murray 70-8 (89.7%)
'13 Murray 43-8 (84.3%) >'16 Nishikori 58-15 (79.5%)
---
Nadal '13 RG - 12.4
Djokr'11 AO - 13.4
Djokr'16 AO - 15.1
Djokr'13 AO - 15.3
Fed '10 AO - 16.2
Djokr'15 WI - 16.9
Nadal '07 RG - 17.0
Fed '07 AO - 17.9
Nadal '06 RG - 18.2
Fed '05 WI - 19.0
Nadal'11 RG/ Fed'12 WI/ Djokr'15 UO - 19.1
Nadal '17 RG - 19.4
Nadal '12 RG - 19.5
Djokovic'18 WI - 19.6
Fed '07 WI - 19.7
Nadal '10 UO - 20.0
Fed '17 WI - 20.2
Djokr'08 AO - 20.4
Fed '04 UO/ Djokr'11 UO - 20.6
Nadal '07 RG - 20.8
Nadal '09 AO - 21.1
Fed '05 UO - 21.3
Nadal'13 UO/ Djokr'14 WI - 21.9
Nadal '05 RG - 22.1
Djokr'15 AO - 22.3
Djokr'20 AO - 22.4
Nadal '08 WI - 22.9
Djokr'12 AO - 23.2
Djokr'16 RG / Nadal'19 RG - 23.4
Fed '06 WI - 23.6
Fed '17 AO - 24.6
Djokr'11 WI - 25.0
Nadal '14 RG - 25.4
Fed '09 WI - 25.8
Djokr'19 AO - 27.4
Fed '09 RG - 27.6
Nadal '18 RG - 27.8
Djokr'18 UO - 28.0
Nadal '19 UO - 29.2
Fed '06 UO - 29.4
Nadal '10 WI - 30.4
Fed '07 UO - 30.6
Fed '08 UO - 30.8
Djokr'19 WI - 31.4
Fed '03 WI - 31.6
Fed '18 AO - 33.6
Fed '04 AO - 34.8
Fed '04 WI - 36.2
Nadal '10 RG - 37.8
Fed '06 AO - 38.6
Nadal '20 RG - 43.4
Nadal '17 UO - 56.5
Of the easiest 14 slams:
Fed won 8, Nadal 5, & Djokr 1
---
Slams won w/ < 28.0 ranked opps:
Djokr 16, Nadal 15, Fed 12
AO: Djokr 8 > Fed 3 > Nadal 1
RG: Nadal 11 > Djokr/Fed 1
WI: Fed 6 > Djokr 4 > Nadal 1
UO: Djokr 3 > Fed /Nadal 2
Djokr has 3+ titles @ AO, WI, UO.
Fed has 3+ titles @ AO, WI.
Nadal has 3+ titles @ RG.
---
Slams won beating < 28.0 ranked opps:
'11-16 Djokr --> 11/11
'03-08 Fed --> 5/13
---
Big 3 H2H Slam matches lost when dropping 0/1 sets in the tourn.
Finals/SF's lost after dropping 0/1 sets in the tournament:
FED-DJOKR
Fed 6 (UO'10, UO'11, WI'14-'15, UO'15, AO'16)
Djokr 2 (RG'11, WI'12)
FED-NADAL
Fed 7 (RG'05, RG'07, WI'08, RG'11, AO'12, AO'14, RG'19)
Nadal 1 (WI'19)
NADAL-DJOKR
Djokr 2 (RG'08, RG'13)
Nadal 2 (UO'11, AO'19)
Total win-loss score:
Nadal 9-3
Djokr 8-4
Fed 3-13
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Djokovic's comp. in '11-15:
'11 AO: Str.-set'd Fed & pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to in-form Fed: played prime level tennis
W: Beat prime Nadal
USO: Beat an in-form older Fed & prime Nadal
'12 AO: Beat pigeon Murray & prime Nadal in 5
FO: Beat Fed, then lost to prime Nadal
W: Lost to an in-form Grass GOAT
USO: Lost to Murray in underrated windy cond.
'13 AO: Beat peak Stan & pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to prime Nadal in 5
W: Barely beat peak Delpo, then lost to Murray
USO: Def. peak Stan, then gave Nadal 2-1 H2H lead
'14 AO: Lost to peak Stan who later def. Nadal
FO: Lost to Nadal who recovered from injury
W: Had overall tough draw & later beat Fed
USO: Beat pigeon Murray, then lost to Nishikori
'15 AO: Beat peak Stan & pigeon Murray
FO: Str.-set'd Nadal, then lost to peak Stan
W: Beat good underrated Fed
USO: Beat good underrated Fed & the crowd
Even in the recent vacuum era, he still had to beat Nadal in Wimb.'18 SF to win after 2 yrs.
---
Cons. GS they either won the title or lost to the eventual champion:
Federer 23 ('04 WI-'10 AO)
Djokovic 13 ('11 WI-'14 WI)
Nadal 5 ('11 RG-'12 RG)
Cons. Big Tourns:
Djokr 19 ('14 Shanghai-'16 Miami)
Fed 14 ('05 Hamburg-'06 Can.)
Nadal 8 ('10 IW-'10 Can.)***
***I’d love to see another USO meeting btwn them!***
ReplyDeleteIf like '11; PASS! If they play like '19 AO, I'm all for it &'ll watch it over & over again! Nothing was > entertaining > seeing Nadal absol. help< as Djokovic ran his ass from side to side! The commentators were bragging about how well Nadal was playing & holding serve over 60 str. X's! Love it when fans overcommit like they did today; expecting a "walkover" for Nadal! I hope they keep underest. the guy; all for the good! "Thanks suckers!"
***What a match! I'm so happy to see them both still playing @ the top of their game. And I admit though I hate feeling stressed out, palms sweating, & feeling the need to run out of the room during every game. I actually LOVE that I can still be emotionally engaged in the match. ...Now I'm going t/b a nervous wreck in the men's final. I have no idea who the women are in the final and probably won't even watch. ..."Congrats Nole & good job Rafa for not giving up!"
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This tournament has already far exceeded = my wildest expectations. I didn't see Djokovic winning as = a legit poss., but he pulled another legendary win that I can only compare to Wimbl.'18.***
This'll always be >er! Nole's won Wimbl. many X's while Paris was Nadal's home court! This win is enormous &'ll echo off the walls of history for yrs to come! Panatta defeating BORG twice @ the FO is still being tossed around! This is = >er win after Rafa's hoisted up 13 cups!
***This match was mentally torture for both players late & such a physical battle. To me it was not a good match; > like a boxing match towards the end. I've seen >er contested matches btw them IMO.***
I'm thinking of the "big pic." of when & where this match happened! Back in '12 AO, who would've thought Djokovic would surpass Fedal in any way? He was still @ just 4 majors, the 5th being that AO in '12! We're now in '21 after Rafa's won 13 FO titles &'s still the fave! You can't compare them; this FO takes precedent! Rafa mhb able to put the GOAT race out of reach w/ this FO! Now it's still up for grabs; esp. w/ potential CYGS if Nole's fortunate enough to complete this chp. run!
***Yes, I see your pt. w/ the "big picture." - This win is a huge. Preventing Nadal from going to 21 here is big as this is normally the slam Nadal +'s to his tally every yr. And @ the other slams he isn't the fave.
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...Now where will Nadal have option for 21's GS; next yr. in RG? Now I have to doubt. But who knows. I still remember how much GS's Novak & Nadal would have; 12 - 15. Said here, yrs ago.***
We had > respect for the NG'rs, but they've been such a disappointment allowing Fedalovic to rule the tour as always for the last 20 yrs!
***This FO was so important for Nadal, now it’s more likely he'll stay @ 20. Can’t see him win @ another slam. Novak, Dominic & Daniil @ their best are too much on HC & Fedovic on grass. This c/b the most significant victory for Novak, = if not winning on Sunday. He has a serious chance @ all majors, not Nadal. - I can see Nadal winning a few > slams, but this loss means Novak can close the gap.***
***This FO win by Djokovic pretty close to eff. over the GOAT in my view. 20 w/b the cherry on top, but it's unnec. to overtake Fedal, IMO.***
ReplyDeleteYep; ya need it for these hardcore Fedal fans who're already softening the blow by screaming from the rooftops; "Fedal got old" as if Nole's still in his 20's! Ridiculous of course, but expected! It's been sad & pathetic these last few yrs w/ Djokovic's detractors "reaching" > & > to stay on top of this GOAT race as he acquired his majors in bunches to catch up to Fedal so quickly! Tech. he's already ahead of sched. as they do have yrs on him on the tour! For him t/b 1 major behind, but leading in all other rec. catagories, it's almost embarrassing the defense of Fedal as twin GOATs!
***This is Djokovic's 52nd title where he beat 2 members of the top 10 (52/84). Fed's 39 (39/103), while Nadal's 35 (35/88). Novak's the 1st player to have won a Slam title while trailing 2 sets to love TWICE since '46 Wimbl. This is the same guy who won Wimbl. by saving a MP in the final for the 1st X since '48. Nole leads Fed 11-6 in GS encounters.
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I think DCS, Nole-Slam, > wks @ #1, tied for > YE #1s, double GM, winning H2H over fellow GOAT contenders is worth > being 1 slam ahead & having the > cons. SF appearances in Slams tbh. - ...Fed '05-07 would str. set that same grandparer w/o a single TB. I think peak level + slam ct. are the only things that matter. We know that if Fed '05-07 plays Nole '11, '15 or 1st 1/2 '16, he'll win > often > not on rebound ace AO, RG, Wimby, or Plx. HC. ...That is why Nole has to @ least overtake Fed in GS ct. t/b considered the GOAT (which w/b GOAT of consistency, not of peak level which w/b Fed for HC & grass & Rafa for clay).
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Novak is approaching the pt. that when all's said & done, he m/b hard to argue against as The GOAT. Consider how the Big 3 currently rank:
GS: Roger 20, Rafa 20, Novak 19
Wks at #1: Novak 323, Roger 310, Rafa 209
Titles: Roger 103, Rafa 88, Novak 84
YE #1s: Novak 6, Roger 5, Rafa 5
WTF's: Roger 6, Novak 5, Rafa 0
Masters: Rafa 36, Novak 36, Roger 28
Recs vs other 2: Novak 57-51, Rafa 52-46, Roger 39-51
...Novak has surpassed Fed in wks &'ll prob. surpass him in GS, Rafa poss. as well. Novak's counting stats will almost be superior to Roger's in almost every way. And, of course, the Serb has a 27-23 edge in the H2H, & a very solid 11-6 lead at Slams. I'd say that, right now, they're about =, which means that Novak will almost certainly surpass Roger.
...Rafa's path to singular GOATdom is a bit > poss. > Roger's, but still rather unlikely: He needs to win @ least 1 or 2 > Slams, & poss. regain the H2H over Novak & m/b win an ATP.
Novak now has a DCGS, an accomp. that Roger will never = & Rafa is unlikely to.
...I think the > likely outcome is that Novak will end up being seen as the 1st among near-=s. The 3 w/b forever linked, & in a way Roger 1st est. the idea of GOAT, then was vanquished by Rafa, who in turn is being surpassed by Novak. Yrs from now, I'd guess that they w/b considered the top 3 w/ everyone else (w/ the poss. except Laver) being well behind, but Novak as the consensus #1. Whether or not Rafa claims #2 over Roger prob. depends upon his final GS tally, un< of course he bulks up those wks @ #1 & wins an elusive WTF.***
***Novak knows tennis patterns when rallying to a surreal level. Add that to a exceptional retrieving ability where the ball seems to slow down a fraction on his side of the net.***
ReplyDeleteThis is so reminiscent of Barry Bonds in his "hey day!" No matter how hard a pitcher threw the ball, it looked as if it was in slow-motion as Barry yanked it out of the yard w/ no problem! Its amazing he was able to do that; esp. w/ how many managers just walked the guy intentionally! It's like that w/ Nole saying he has no real comp. @ this X &'s being gifted majors w/o Fedal to stop him! More horseshit of course!
***...So if there's a yr. when Djokovic wins just 1 slam (or = 2) combined w/ playing very few tourns., it w/b hard for him to hold the #1 spot. I think he can reach 400-450 wks @ #1.***
Nole's reign is already in jeapardy! Even though he's won 3 Majors, like '16 w/ 2 Majors & 4 Masters, he still wound up 2nd behind Murray who played so many 500 events, he not only caught up to Nole, but put his own career in jeapardy when he began to brk down! Djokovic's just 2000+ pts ahead of Med who still has a chance to steal YE #1! It's BS, but that's how it works = w/ the Big 3 in charge of the tour!
***W/ this win Djokovic's almost guaranteed to have #1 throughout the yr. (Med's def. a huge # of pts. til the end of the yr.), & he'll prob. have #1 until @ least the FO or next yr.'s Wimbl. which's like 375 wks or so. So really all I'm talking about is I think he can win (some say 'vulture') another 120 wks or so to reach 500 & not nec. in a row.
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Poor Roger fans. Must be tough seeing Djoker strip Roger of all big recs., wks @ #1, slam rec., Masters titles. Not only this, Rog has a losing rec. vs Djoker & could never topple Rafa @ FO. Djoker also has the Nole-Slam, but prob. > devastating is how Djoker has beaten Rog in his house, in 3 big finals @ Wimbl. Djoker has invaded Rog & Rafa's houses & brought the houses down. Man, I hope Djokovic doesn't get 8 or > Wimbl., this w/b an insult to Fed. As a person who was never Rog's biggest fan, even I wouldn't want this, so he sails into sunset w/ @ least 1 rec. in tact!
Rafa fans are equally frustrated...Well, hey, denial will eventually lead to acceptance, = for you. Yeah, Djoker's the GOAT it seems.
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As of NOW, Djoker clearly leads the GOAT race, but it's not over yet. Can Rog & Rafa turn things around?
Why Novak The GOAT:
1. Rec. wks @ #1.
2. Tied for slam rec.
3. Winning rec. vs the other 2 in the GOAT debate.
4. Only 1 of 3 who has won all 4 slams in a row.
5. Most Masters win.
6. Putting all big titles together - Masters, ATP Cup, Slams, Nole's totals the highest ever.
7. Toppled Roger in his house (Wimbl.) 3 X's in finals.
8. Only player to topple Rafa in his house twice (French) & has > wins over Rafa on clay.
9. Arguably, the > complete game. No weaknesses. Nadal may have > spin, Roger > variety, but looking @ their game in terms of strengths/weaknesses, Djoker may have the > complete game of all. As Uncle Tony always says 'w/ Roger, we had a strategy, w/ Djokovic, none.'
a.) Amazing groundstrokes, =ly as eff. on any surface.
b.) Amazing defense, movement. Prob. best ever.
c.) Amazing offense from baseline w/ ability to take ball early & employ uncanny depth consistently.
d.) Arguably the best return ever.
e.) A very eff. serve w/ great placement.
f.) Very eff. dropshot.
g.) A very eff. slice, which he has used eff. on grass.
h.) As of recent, very good volleys w/ ability to S & V w/ great effectiveness.***
The rec. doesn't lie, but fans still delusional!
***I like Rafa. In fact, @ his best, beats Djoker on clay...
But Djoker has beaten Rafa @ French (clay) > anyone else & also beaten Roger @ Wimbl. > anyone else. Crazy. True makings of The GOAT.***
***Nole’s always been very skinny; by far the skinniest out of the Big 3.***
ReplyDeleteIf you limit carbs, it's almost imposs. to hold onto fat of any kind; hence the emaciated app. of Nole! That was a big deal a dec. ago which turned his life & career around, elim. gluten from his diet & dealing w/ breathing issues! He took ex. of Lendl to new hts. of conditioning! From end of '10 where Djokovic won DC singlehandedly for Serbia, he's been a machine! It'll get harder for the naysayers since Nole's not only =ed their Major's ct., he already has a signif. H2H lead on both players; esp. vs Fed!
***Just think about the fact that a lot of people considered Wawrinka fat for a tennis pro :-D***
I think Nalbandian & Ferrer suffered from the same misconceptions! I always thought they just looked horrible in the clothes they wore; mostly ill-fitting or baggie!
***Anyone know who of Goran or Vajda w/b present w/ Djoko in Tokyo? Think it's crazy w/ so much Covid around that he's willing to increase poss. chances of contracting it & preventing him playing USO or @ least threatening his health B4 such a big event.***
Logic says this is a once in a lifeX chance either way! As lib. as I am, "I'd still beg off Tokyo" w/ their underlying issues no matter the precautions! It'd immortalize him to win OG & finish it off w/ a OGCYGS if USO Chp. in the cards like Steffi on the ladies' side! I feel he's going above & beyond due to Fedal mythology! He won't feel "the love" the way they have it & he's trying to leave "NO DOUBT!" We can hark on the age diff., the early dom. that changed over X, w/ recs inflated by the tech, conditioning advances, & homogenized court surfaces! A 100 yrs from now, no one'll care!
***I do think the slam race btw Nadovic is far from over. It won't be over til 1 of them has @ least 4 > slams. And still....We've seen how it works.
Djokovic wins Wimbl.'19 = this match was decisive for the slam race, now it's almost certain Djokovic will catch Fedal.
Djokovic's default @ USO = he missed a huge opp., slam race is prob. for Nadal now.
Nadal destroys Djokovic in Paris'20 = the race is def. over. Nadal's a lock for next RG. He may win the CYGS next yr. & AO's a must-win for Djokovic.
Djokovic beats Nadal & wins RG'21 = the slam Race is def. over. Djokovic will make the CYGS & Nadal's never winning a slam again, not = RG.
If Nadal wins the USO this yr., all we'll hear is how he has a good chance to win the AO, how he's a lock for RG, how he could win the CYGS in '22, & how Djokovic is done & never winning a slam ever again.
If Djokovic wins the USO, all we'll hear is he's the GOAT &'ll win 10 > slams & how Nadal's done done done for good this X.
Even Fed. Imagine he won Wimbl. or wins the USO. All we'd hear is how he can still win @ least 1 of not 2 slams next yr., how he's the GOAT for winning a slam @ 40 & how he's still in the run for the slam race.
This is neverending. Again, I don't think the slam race w/b a done deal anyX soon. No one can predict what'll happen.
Even if Djokovic wins the USO, it's only 21-20. All it takes is a massive injury in '22 or a bad yr. like '17, & Nadal becomes the huge fave everywhere next yr., & could easily win 2, if not 3 slams, making 23-21 by the end of '22.
And even if Nadal wins USO, it's also 21-20. W/ Djokovic fave for AO & Wimbl. for @ least 2 > yrs...
I'll only consider Djokovic winning the slam race if he wins this USO & wins 3 slams next yr. (24) while Nadal is still stuck @ 20 by the end of '22. There has t/b 4 if not 5 slams btw them. A 3 slams gap isn't enough. We've just witnessed it this yr. (from the humilation in RG & 17-20 to 20-20, 8 months later).***
***DJOKR NEWS:
ReplyDelete""History doesn't rec. how Fedal passed the 78 days during which NATO bombed Yugo. Novak, who turned 12 as he sheltered, has cause to rem. his movements. Those who'd begrudge this man his hard edges might consider where he got them. At some pt., perhaps NY next month, the Serb w/b the >est male tennis player ever. (4 > slams sex-qual. will go.) At no pt. will he have been the > admired: not = 2nd->, not = of his era. The mystery's why. His style's attritional, say purists, as though angels weep when Nadal plays. ...The nationalism: how many in the lukewarm crowds = know of it? True, he crashed a sparkling party a dec. ago. But the brk-up of “Fedal” was no ruder > Nadal’s own usurpation of the Swiss. Stylistically, in fact, it was < of a shock....
I'm inclined to blame the personality-worship of tennis, the favored sport of people who don’t like sport. But = this won’t do. Djokovic's the > expansive & curious of the big 3. He's not just multilingual but absorbed by the learning. He roams well east of his Serbian Orthodoxy for beliefs or at least practices. Whether or not his diet stems from “quantum physics,” how telling that he cares. His critics don’t = get his real flaw right. It's not the bionic coldness that Slav athletes have had pinned on them since Rocky IV, so much as its near-opposite. A man who maintains a “gratitude journal” & “connection w/ my own soul” has too open, not too closed, a mind. And if his personality were the kind you can cut your fingers on, how could it not be? W/o whitewashing life in Basel or Mallorca, 1990s Belgrade was quite the hardship posting....
In 20 yrs in & around pols, 1 truth has taken a while to reg. on me. A “back story” cts for almost nothing. It brings lit'l understanding from the public. It earns 0 lat. for personal flaws. Even aside from natural present-bias, voters have lots of reasons to discount the biographical. Those who had a benign start in life want no reminding of their dumb luck. Those who didn’t want no reminding of their failure to reach escape velocity. ...If you bound out of a traumatic youth in sunny form, the trauma +s nothing to your appeal. If you crawl out scarred & prickly, expect no licence for those foibles. This is no < true in the workplace > in the public square. I have seen careers stall over it.
Given what Djokovic comes from, his personal intensity is natural. But he gets no pass for it. He is judged as Fedal are, despite formative differences that include a birth on the harsh side of the Iron Curtain. How often we prefer the idea of “mobility” to its individual case studies.""
- https://www.ft.com/content/24356049-83e4-44b9-bf2d-a4e746ce4349 -
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I think Djokovic skipping Toronto was a good idea, but skipping Cincy is not. He needs to wipe out the neg. energy of Olympics.***
I think Djokovic & his team know what's best! So far they've been right a lot > not while winning majors in bunches to catch Fedal when > thought it imposs.! When he got to 12 majors, some of us already thought he s/b proclaimed the BOAT after stellar seasons in '11 & '15! W/ any luck & his normal mental toughness, Nole should do = >er by closing this deal on a CYGS! That missed OG could actually help!
***Remarkable how some lit'l off-the-cuff musing comes to own someone's psyche.***
It's not just "off the cuff musing!" I mon. other bds where Fedal fans think tennis begins & ends w/ them! I personally have no dog in this hunt! My fave player's Borg w/ Sampras "MY GOAT" = w/o a FO final! "The recs" started saying Djokovic w/b the BOAT & the knives came out! IMO, it prob. started after Nole won his 12th Major! He was coming up fast & many got nervous saying "he can't catch up!" They're still living in an alt. reality! The rec. is the rec. w/ Djokovic prob. owning it soon w/ lit'l chance of anyone dom. so thoroughly his or her sport!
***For a man of his age, = w/ his strict diet/stretching, etc., it's a lit'l unnatural for him to never get tired (seemingly). He wears down players 1/2 his age (or so). He's a incredible player, but I'd not be surprised if there was a Lance Armstrong moment coming.
ReplyDelete---
I w/b not just surprised, but absolutely shocked. I do believe he (& your fave player, no matter who he is) is likely on some stuff. I also believe that a doping controversy for one of the Big 3 & GOAT w/b truly curtains for tennis financially. It would never come out. And also, as long as TUEs cont. t/b granted, tennis continues to silently support it.
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Novak's had a strict diet & training regimen for over a decade. I think he understood that's what he needs to stay @ the top. Give credit where credit is due.***
Some have to find a reason to make sense of his dominance I guess! It's kind of pathetic! The same was said about Rafa, but it's died down!
***Endurance athletes do not peak in their early/mid 20s. Djokovic's right @ the tail end of an endurance athletes peak age range. - Not in tennis though.***
Fed was still winning past 35! Did anyone say something about him in '17 outlasting Rafa in many matches except on clay in Paris @ the FO in '19?
***Fed had to completely retool his game past 32/33 & focus on shortening the pts; the opposite of Djokovic is doing i.e. outgrinding all the 20 something yo supposedly @ their physical peaks. He said so himself. He proudly claims that he is confident he can outlast all of the younger guys in BO5. Djokovic doesn't = get affected in the slightest w/ all the 5 setters he plays.
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It's not really a big secret. Flexible body, broad, but lighter frame (considerably < body wt. than his fellow peers), disciplined diet, focused workout. If he'd have been as heavy as he was in '11-15, he'd not have survived this long in terms of fitness. It was a smart choice to have dropped some body-wt. unlike Fedal.
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I don't think Novak dopes. Ot's compatible w/ his personality of jumping from fad diet to new fad diets, which begun w/ no gluten & ended up w/ him vegan, or his refusal of vaccines, or his following of a Spanish guru that had him starved looking like Karen Carpenter. That kind of person m/b unbearable, but it's not the kind of person that would dope.
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The impressive thing w/ Djokovic is not that he’s not getting tired; his cardio's better > 18-24 yo. The impressive thing is that his joints & muscles have held up & he’s avoided injuries since the elbow. It’s a testament to the work he puts in on flexibility & whatever he’s doing post matches to keep joint inflammation down.
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Don’t believe ND dopes, but I didn’t believe Armstrong did either. Still I think it’s his diet & training that's his secret. The reason he wins is his comp. sucks. Occam’s razor. Don’t complicate this.***
There were many who knew Armstrong used, but he silenced them thru courts! The closest Nole's been to court was his unfiled "A & B" of the lineswoman last yr.!
***The one thing w/ Djokovic that has t/b discussed here is that there is no PED on Earth that can give you the ridiculous flexibility he has. That is solely a product of hard work, extensive yoga, & freakish discipline & dedication. Also try eating vegan for a month. His discipline & rigor to his routine is up there w/ the best across all athletics, PEDs or no PEDs.***
***Nole's 1st Master was Montreal, & he def. #3 Rodick in the QF, #2 Nadal in the SF, & #1 Federer in the final. It was '07.***
ReplyDeleteThis is what makes me laugh when people talk about diff. eras for Fedalovic! That's so fk'n ridiculous as you've highlighted w/ that early success vs Fedal! Over those early yrs, it was Djokovic that kept Fed from winning > AO's w/ lone losses to Nadal & Murray! People have selective memory! I give credit where credit's due; = w/ Nadal who's no fave of mines! Others have literally "lost it" w/ hyperbole as if Novak doesn't have anyone who's capable of beating him! Undermining this great achievement's mindblowing IMO! Most would love t/b there as history's being made, but the detractors will always have reason to have reservations concerning Djokovic!
***Djokovic's Journey - '21 USO QF'S:
The #1 seed once again drops 1st set, looked in trouble vs #6 seed, Berrettini of Italy. But once again he found an extra gear, moving into the SF w/ a 5-7, 6-2, 6-2, 6-3 victory.
His 2 >est rivals, Medvedev & Zverev made their way to the SF in str. sets, meaning 3 out of 4 top seeds would feature in the last 4.
-
SUMMARY B4 SF
All Slam contenders make SF.
----------------------------
'62 & '69 are only yrs. when all 4 top seeds make the SF.
In '33*, '56 & '21, 3 of top 4 make the SF.
In '38*, 2 of top 4 seeds make SF.
* in '33 & '38 the tourn. split the seeds into US players & Int'l players. I've used the top 2 from each category for these figures.
-----------------------------------------
Djokovic has dropped the most sets (4) on way to SF
Budge is only player not to drop a set.
'21 Djokovic -4 sets
'69 Laver -3 sets
'33 Crawford -2 sets
'62 Laver -1 set
'56 Hoad -1 set
'38 Budge -0 sets
-----------------------------------------
Biggest upset:
'33 #1 US seed Ellsworth Vines elim. 4th Rd.
-------------------------------------------
Contender 5 set matches:
'69 RD 4: Laver v Ralston
-------------------------
SF:
Djokovic faces #4 seed, Zverev (who ended chances of the "GS"). In match that's epitome of tense baseline tennis, fortunes swing to & fro, til Djokr once again raises his level that bit >er > opp., finally winning: 4-6, 6-4, 6-4, 4-6, 6-2.
His final match vs #2 seed, Medvedev, although not @ his best, wins easily in str. sets.
DJOKOVIC PLAYS FOR THE GS!
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A disappointment... To me, Novak's already GOAT based on stats (> wks @ #1, tied for slam rec., > Masters, 5 EOD @ Tour Cups, won Nole-Slam, winning H2H vs Fedal, beat Roger 3 X's in Wbl. Finals, Rafa twice @ FO....), but I wanted him to seal the deal & get CYGS so = the deniers can't deny it.
...Medvedev played the match he had to play today, smart tactics. He needed to serve well; DF a lot towards the end, but he had already done the damage by then. Novak had > probs returning his serve than Berretini's or Zverev's... it could've been due to faster conditions (day match vs other 2 were night matches), but the serving was key for Medvedev.
...Both AO & USO finals were 3 sets, roughly around same # of games (AO - 27 games, USO - 30 games). A comparison of stats:
AO:
aces/Dfs, ND 3/2, DM, 6/4
Winners/UFEs, ND 20/17, DM 24/30
USO:
aces/Dfs, ND 6/3, DM, 16/9
Winners/UFEs, ND 27/38, DM 38/31
Medvedev hit 10 > aces
Djokovic hit 21 > UFEs
Medvedev hit 14 > winners
So 14 > winners for Med > he hit @ AO & 21 > UFEs for Djokovic, which is extremely unusual for him in 3 sets. That's the match.***
Thanks!
***...Novak played Nobody. His road was not difficult, IMO. - I beg to differ. ...not in Sept. '21
ReplyDeleteDaniil prior to this victory had won the YEC on HC, 4 diff. Masters on HC (5 finals in all), made the SF's or >er in 4 out of the last 5 HC Majors, & made 2 prev. Major finals (USO & AO). One could argue he had 2nd best rec. of anyone who had not yet won a Major in the last 20 yrs. He's beaten Djokovic 4 X's, includ. 3 yrs on HC. Did I mention he's also ranked #2 in the world?
So one could argue that Medvedev pushing thru the final ceiling & winning a HC Major = over #1 Novak is hardly a shocker result.
One could also argume that Zverev is also due any X to win a Major b/c of his natural progression (HC Major finalist, twice Major SF, 5 Masters HC finals, 2 Masters HC wins, HC Olympic title, HC YEC, etc) & prob. the 3rd best rec. of someone who has yet to win a HC Major. He has beaten Novak 3 X's, includ. twice in HC w/ this yr's Olympics. Did I mention he's ranked #4 in the world (a smidge behind Tsitsipas)
Novak played them both back to back, as well as playing the Wimbl. finalist (Berretinii) in the QTRS.
I'd say Novak had prob. the toughest QTR/SF/FINAL path possible. AT the least by the X he played Daniil, he was a bit battered & bruised (give Berretini & esp. Zverev an assist).
So if Novak had won the USO & completed the CYGS w/ this cast of '21 players, IMO it wouldn't have put any * in front of it.
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Medvedev deserves this win. He played his best match. Djoker could not bring best game; that's it. But I hope 21st will come in '22. Now I hope he could win some Masters to bypass Nadal w/ 36.***
I'm not going to sulk over this loss! I had felt early on Djokovic had the toughest road to the final & he needed Med t/b upset! He's the only player who can go "toe to toe" w/ Djokovic & the X's he's defeated is when Nole can take his legs away! That wasn't happening this match & very early on I didn't see a comeback! If it had been Sascha I'd have hope, but Daniil's tough! He has that ugly kind of game I dislike, but it's oh so eff. w/ sneaky power & catlike quickness! He never really struggled & only gave us a glimmer of hope DF'n a game away in the 3rd! This is =alent to Navratilova outlasting Evert & Goolagong, but had no respite needing to survive the next wave of players in Graf, Sabatini, & Seles! It's going to get tougher & tougher to get motivated to compete & the losses will come! I just hope Djokovic can hold it together for the next season or 2 to separate himself from Fedal!
***You've prob. heard/read that I've always regarded the mythical GOAT as "the best player in the (all) OE until now."
Hence, I don't really consider Laver, Rosewall & those who preceded them. And yes, while there are significant differences btw the X of, say, Connors/Borg & The Big 3, there's enough commonality for me to compare their overall achievements.
...
Achievement-wise, I thought that Novak's 4-in-a-row wasn't respected enough, yet I still give the (true) CYGS a lit'l > credit > the NCYGS. It doesn't bother me that in '69 it was only played on 2 surfaces, rather > 3 -- that's not Rod's fault. I don't give his '62 GS the same wt. Still impressive, but the tour was split.
...Right now (not knowing how to mix Laver, Rosewall & poss. Pancho (so hard to assess his career fairly, though I think of him as potentially = a better Sampras), nobody in the OE has accomplishments on par w/ Roger, Rafa & Novak. Looking @ all their achievements, I think Novak's a fairly clear #1. I'm not sure btw Fedal for who's 1-B & who's 1-C. If I included those who started B4 the OE, I still lean to The Big 3 as 1-3, followed by Rocket, & poss. Rosewall & Gonzales; then go to Pete & Borg.***
***I think Nole's GOAT right @ this moment b/c he has the DCGS & > wks @ #1. But if they all end up w/ 20 Slams, Fed might eventually seem t/b the GOAT b/c of his longevity & 2 huge things: he won 3 slams after turning 35 & was the oldest #1 ranked player @ age 36-8. If Novak wins no > Slams & his career fades, many will put Fed ahead b/c of those 2 things- he dominated as an old man. Of course Nadal fans can always pt. to 13 RG's which is obviously just insane.
ReplyDeleteIf Novak gets to 21 & the other 2 remain @ 20, I don't think there's 1 single argument for Fedal t/b GOAT. It's put to bed if Novak gets 21. Serious tennis fans know wks @ #1 is massive (as is the DCGS), but in 10-120 yrs, that fades in > people's minds. But # of slams is the defining criterion for GOAT, @ least for > tennis historians/analysts.
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I don't see anyone w/ = or stronger case for GOAT title...
Wks @ #1
YE #1
Double CGS
Def. >est rivals (GOAT opp.) @ their pet slam > once
Double GM
Better H2H > fellow GOAT candidates
> overall big titles
These are the overwhelming achievements that tilt the scale towards Novak & we all know it...Both Fedal are quite inferior.
Seems like only Djokovic that can + few > Slams & Masters B4 he retires...
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Djoking aside, I have Djoker ahead of Nadal significantly & ahead of Federer slightly right now. Any add'l losses won't change that. But big wins will allow him to put them farther into the rear view mirror; provided that they don't + to their own tallies. - He’s the statistical GOAT, meaning that w/ pure #'s & measurements, Novak's the BOAT (male that is).
But of course people have diff. opinions, so GOAT can mean anything to anyone.
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GOAT Tier:
Tier 1 : FEDERER, Djokovic, Sampras & Nadal
Tier 2 : Borg, McEnroe, Lendl, Connors & Agassi
Tier 3 : Becker, Wilander, Edberg
Tier 4 : Safin, Courier, Kuerten, Murray, Hewitt, Roddick, Stanimal, Ivanisevic, Bruguera, etc.
Tier 5 : Gaudio, Thiem, Medvedev^ (*new entrant on list)
Tier 6 : Nalbandian, Raonic, Nishikori, Tsonga, Zverev, Tsitsipas, etc.
Tier 7 : Top 50 players who're journeymen
Tier 8 : Those ranked outside the top 100***
The delusion is real when it comes to NOLE! ;-)
***Which are the best OE seasons?
ReplyDelete'69: Rod Laver won the GS when 3 of the 4 majors were on grass & the AO had a bye in this era.
'74: Jimmy Connors won all 3 majors that he played. He DNP the FO due to the WTT ban. Connors beat Ken Rosewall 6-1, 6-1, 6-0 to win the USO in the > lopsided major final victory ever.
'79: Bjorn Borg won 2 of the 3 majors he played, losing the USO QF to Tanner. As usual, he DNP the AO.
'84: John McEnroe won 2 majors, having lost the FO final to Lendl after a 2-0 set lead. He DNP the AO (on grass) due to a wrist injury. His 82-3 rec. is the best for a single season in the OE & he started the yr. w/ a 42-match win streak.
'86: Ivan Lendl won the FO & USO & lost to Boris Becker in the Wimbl. final & DNP AO. Lendl won the YEC w/o dropping a set while beating #4 Edberg, #3 Wilander, & #2 Becker in a row. Also won YEC earlier in Jan. B4 move to Nov.
'05: Roger Federer won 2 majors & lost in the SF's in the AO & FO to Safin & Nadal, respectively.
'06: Roger Federer won 3 majors & lost the FO to Nadal. In his 92-5 rec., 4 losses were to Nadal & 1 loss was to Murray.
'10: Nadal won 3 majors & went out to Murray in the AO QF's. He swept the clay Masters 1000s for the only X in his career.
'11: Novak Djokovic won 3 majors & lost the FO SF to Fed. He had a 43-match win streak, the 3rd longest among men in the OE, & went 10-1 vs Fedal combined.
'15: Novak Djokovic won 3 majors & lost the FO final to Wawrinka. He won the WTF for the 4th cons. season, & reached 15 finals in 16 tourns. played. Djokovic is the only player ever to beat every player in the top 10 in a single yr. going 31-5 vs the top 10 (86%).
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How's Djokovic '15 running away w/ this over a 17 title CYGS season from Laver & Mac's absolute masterpiece of an '84?***
All kinds of recs were set in '15; winning 3 Majors, 6 Masters events, the YEC, & accum. the > ATP pts ever! Laver & McEnroe were geniuses in their own right, but their path was made simpler w/ limited comp. & surface changes! Novak won anywhere & everywhere & truly dom. the tour! Both Laver & McEnroe were pretty much done afterwards; esp. John who never made another major final! Nole actually got >er; hence '18 &'21!
***Players by Total Big Titles:
62 Djokovic
57 Nadal
54 Federer
33 Lendl
32 McEnroe, Sampras
31 Connors
27 Agassi
25 Laver, Borg
23 Becker
20 Murray
15 Wilander
14 Edberg
13 Rosewall
12 Newcombe, Nastase
9 Courier, Muster, Kuerten
8 Ashe, Vilas, Chang, ZVEREV
Players w/ 4+ big titles in a season, by # of seasons:
10 Djokovic
9 Nadal
7 Federer
5 Lendl
4 Connors, McEnroe
3 Laver, Borg, Sampras
2 Rosewall
1 Nastase, Wilander, Edberg, Becker, Agassi, Muster, Rios, Murray, ZVEREV
By > big titles in a season:
10 Djokovic ('15)
9 McEnroe ('84)
8 Federer ('06), Djokovic ('11)
7 Lendl ('86), Fed ('04), Nadal ('13)
6 Laver ('69, '70), Sampras ('94, '97), Fed ('05, '07), Nadal ('08, '10), Djokovic ('14, '16), Murray ('16)
5 Nastase ('73), Connors ('76), Borg ('79, '80), Lendl ('82, '85, '89), McEnroe ('83), Wilander ('88), Fed ('17), Nadal ('05), Djokovic ('12, '13)
4 Rosewall ('68, '72), Laver ('68), Connors ('74, '78, '83), Borg ('78), McEnroe ('78, '81), Lendl ('87), Becker ('88), Edberg ('90), Agassi ('95), Sampras ('95), Muster ('95), Rios ('98), Fed ('09, '12), Nadal ('07, '09, '17, '18, '19), Djokovic ('08, '18, '19, '21), ZVEREV ('21)***
***Nole's dad said that his son's "being held captive." Novak's free to leave anyX!***
ReplyDeleteNovak's playing Hamlet & actually dividing the country from what I hear! There are 2 factions in the country, the tour, & tech. people around the world! It'd prob. rival giving Borg the boot in Paris '77 due to him playing WTT! I had forgotten until recently that it wasn't on him that he didn't play the FO that season! I thought he just left for Wimbl. early to get in Xtra practice defending his title! Normally Bjorn had < a wk. to acclimate himself to grass! M/b Tiriac helped so his charge, Vilas c/b thrown a bone by taking that FO! He only had 1 > chance & that was in '82 vs another freakin' Swede; a very young Matts Wilander!
Nole's PR's working! Tennis Aust.'s made to look foolish along w/ pols > concerned w/ their own popularity in an election yr! Just saw Justin Quill of Chan. 9 say "Australia's being made to look like oppressers" the way they've treated Novak, the #1 player in the World! Now Zali Steggall is lambasting officials! I said this was going t/b a mess & it has; really much >er > I thought! Now Chris Smith's giving it a go agreeing it's been shameful; the pols & treatment where food w/ maggots being served @ that dump hotel!
***When the topic about vacc. came up months prior, PM Morrison backed off & tried to distance himself from it by saying this decision & who w/b permitted to play in the AO he'd defer to Victoria. It w/b up to Victoria he said. When the backlash happened after Djokovic got the exemption, that's when he wanted to play political puppet master & regened on that earlier statement, & made a real mess of things in the process. He also called Victoria X X's trying to get them to approve Djokovic's visa b/c he wanted to keep his hands clean, & they said "no, that's your job." Every decision he made in regards to Djokovic was pol. & he got burned in the end, which is what he deserved.
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He's a liar. Not in any way involved w/ the process which is Border Force & the Ministers of Immigration & Home Affairs. - I'm told we're not expecting to hear from Immigration Minister Alex Hawke today. - There's no pressure to get rid of Novak. The usual suspect wants to look tough on protecting borders. So a tennis player w/ a visa issue happens t/b avail.***
...The process was archaic & unprof'al which's why he's walking around free as we speak! It mhb nice for him to follow along w/ the rest of us & "take his medicine," but there have been some other top athletes out there who've skipped "the poke!" ...The rules don't alway apply! It chb done quietly, but "they blew it" trying to make an ex. of him! Now it's backfired & there's a possibilty this could have lasting affects on the tournament's future! A ton of top players have already bowed out; a few uncertain due to injury! The draws are already becoming decimated! Do they really want to "boot" Novak w/ that heavy contingent of Serbian fans? I mean it might get real ugly down there!
***Clearly there has been confusion btw the state of Vict., TA, the Fed gov't, & now the courts that represent the gov't. But you are right to say that Novak has skirted resp., & gets away w/ it b/c that's what the elites do. It's just that that's a bitter pill to swallow for the man-on-the-street. And he/she/we don't like to have it thrown in our faces. This is a PR nightmare in many ways, not least for Novak. But I don't think the AO has to suffer. And the draws have not been "decimated," you drama queen. I think there is every chance of a really interesting tourn., men's & women's, = if Novak gets the boot. Novak's far from the only story in tennis, & I thought you were a proponent of other players making a mark.***
***They just deported Novak. Australia's lost. I thought the people would stand up to that tyranny. I was way wrong.
ReplyDelete---
1. Austr. grants him permission to come into country
2. Austr. denies him citing invalid medical exemption
3. Judge sides w/ Djokovic by pointing out Austr. didn’t cancel visa by following due process
4. Austr. then changes tune & admits exemption was valid (inval. their original cancel decision), but that now Djokovic had become a threat to public order. LOL. Has anyone seen any evidence he was the leader of anti-vaxxers in all of '21? A threat to civil order, like some terrorist? Djokovic has never been a leader of anti-vaxxers, they just made him one in order to create a villain to save face due to their failed policies.
The > X goes by, > & > will see Djoker as a victim of politics & a hero... & then he'll get the slam rec. & go down as GOAT & an activist hero fighting totalitarianism. I think this is all great for Djokovic legacy.***
The majority of the populous was weighing their own frustration "living the life" in Austr. the last 2 yrs! From what I hear it was oppressive how they locked things down for months @ a X! They don't want to see a celebrity skirt the rules = though it was their own gov't that allowed a loophole! This is on all 3 governing bodies: Victoria Prov., The Fed, & Tennis Austr.! Someone approved a Visa for Djokovic so it's not on him as much! He was autho'd to fly in from someone! This whole thing turned unnec. into "Brk'n Int'l News" for over a wk! Someone shm a definitive dec. to deal w/ the situation on Day 1! If going hard, GO HARD & not = give Djokovic any reprieve or appeal! Again, this is on local governing bodies & judge!
***I’m embarassed for some who support this j/b you don’t want Nole to beat your precious Fedal in slams. He will; far superior to both of them today & has been past 10 yrs. It may = happen @ FO, which w/b amazing.
Ya'll s/b ashamed of yourselves. Here’s a guy who's arguably the GOAT &'s shown us all how to work hard & persevere. The Austr. gov't granted him an exemption, tried to cancel his visa on invalid grounds (admitted), court sided w/ Djoker, then EO using completely diff. reasons (that he's a threat to public order), then cancels visa. The judges cave in given how embarrasing it whb for Novak to def. the gov't.
In many ways, this is great. Novak's now seen as a hero & fighter for freedom vs totalitarian regimes. Austr.’s incompetence & failed policies unearthed & on the spotlight around the world. He has detractors? The same people who didn’t like him B4 so no change here, but he’s now seen as a fighter for freedoms and oppression. He'll get all the recs, he’s just a >er player > Fedal for rest of their careers.
"Thank U Nole for staying strong & fighting evil oppr. & Totalitarianism! Go FO! Wimbl.! USO! You w/b fresher & > mot. > ever! Screw AO, U have 9 of them. Your GOAT status w/b enhanced by bal. your slams wins > =ly. Go Novak! Hero activist & GOAT!"***
***At this stage, the tickets are sold & the TV rights secured. The absence of Novak won’t affect the income of AO if they decide to deport him.***
ReplyDeleteThe Event can still end up having a huge cross to bear if they make the wrong decision! Tech. there's no right or wrong decision since this has gotten so big making Int'l news all day long! Novak's the #1 player in the world!
***If they're going to take away his visa, it should happen today or tmrw. That, however, may not make him leave the country, or prevent him playing some or all of the tourn. His expensive lawyers can block his expulsion. But I do agree that if they're going to yank his visa, they should get on the stick, & do it in the next 48 hrs. They're already looking weak on the issue. If they wait >er, Djokovic & his lawyers will really have made them look like chumps.
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They just deported Novak. Australia's lost. I thought the people would stand up to that tyranny. I was way wrong.
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I'm from Melbourne, I'm telling you Novak had no chance this year...He whb boo'd out the stadium.***
Well, we'll see how history judges that irrational sentiment! I'm thinking your ancestors are going t/b shaking their heads in shame wondering "WTF? We're lucky anyone comes to this Gawd-forsaken desert continent! Here we are banning the #1 player in the world?"
***Him getting banned was of his own doing.***
W/ the 3 governing bodies, someone must've told him "come on down! You have an exemption!"
***It was no doubt "a big balls up" from Tennis Australia.
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Ukrainian players have largely supported Wimbl.’s ban, & Stakhovsky who retired earlier this yr. has since joined the Ukrainian army to defend his homeland condemned Nadal’s stance. ...“Please tell me how it is fair that Ukrainian players cannot return home? How it is fair that Ukrainian kids cannot play tennis? How is it fair that Ukrainians are dying?”***
Love the commentary from "just retired" Ukrainian player, Sergiy Stakhovsky! Fine, it's unfair to Russian & Belarusian players t/b banned from Wimbl., but it's = > unfair that a country is being bombarded & their citizens killed! THANK YOU! It's as if I never hear this! It's been such a one-sided argument!
***I'd think Novak's best best this Spring/Summer isn’t the FO but Wimbledon.***
I'll take either or both! He'll drop off the ranking charts un< he wins @ least one of them this Summer!
***No rest for Barcelona champion Carlos Alcaraz as he quickly had to jet off to Greece to fufil a commitment to his agency, IMG. Alcaraz along w/ Hubert Hurkacz had committed to an exh. match @ the Tatoi Club today.***
Hope we don't see the early burnout! W/ success, you not only play > matches, commitments double & triple! IMG like any business say they look out for players, but their main job is to promote & earn $$! "Better watch out Carlos!"
***DJOKOVIC***
ReplyDeleteMP WASTED (3)
'18 Queen's F Cilic 7–5, 6–7(4), 3–6 (1)
'09 Madrid SF Nadal 6–3, 6–7(5), 6–7(9) (3)
'07 Rotterdam SF Youzhny 6–3, 6–7(7), 5–7 (3)
MP SAVED (15)
'20 Dubai SF Monfils 2–6, 7–6(8), 6–1 (3)
'19 Wimbledon F Federer 7–6(5), 1–6, 7–6(4), 4–6, 13–12(3) (2)!
'19 Rome QF del Potro 4–6, 7–6(6), 6–4 (2)
'17 Doha SF Verdasco 4–6, 7–6(7), 6–3 (5)
'15 Montreal QF Gulbis 5–7, 7–6(7), 6–1 (2)
'12 Shanghai F Murray 5–7, 7–6(11), 6–3 (5)!
'12 Roland Garros QF Tsonga 6–1, 5–7, 5–7, 7–6(6), 6–1 (4)
'11 London WTF RR Berdych 3–6, 6–3, 7–6(3) (1)
'11 US Open SF Federer 6–7(7), 4–6, 6–3, 6–2, 7–5 (2)
'10 US Open SF Federer 5–7, 6–1, 5–7, 6–2, 7–5 (2)
'10 IW's R32 Kohlschreiber 6–3, 2–6, 7–6(3) (3)
'09 Basel SF Stepanek 6–7(4), 7–5, 6–2 (3)
'09 Halle R16 Serra 5–7, 7–5, 6–1 (5)
'07 Vienna QF Chela 6–3, 5–7, 7–6(2) (2)
'05 Wimbl. R64 G.Lopez 3–6, 3–6, 7–6(5), 7–6(3), 6–4 (6)!*
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Djokovic is beyond a doubt the Best of the Big 3 & this is not b/c of him blooming early or comp. being weak later on. It's j/b this whole era is about ball bashing 7 who bashes the ball better > Djokovic? One s/b thankful that he had gluten allergy in the beginning, then suffered weird defeats to Murray-Stan & later threw some slams via Throat-gate/Vax-gate, or else he w/b having all the recs. It's inevitable really, he will reach 25-26 Slams.
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Djokovic:
12 HC
6 grass
2 clay
Nadal:
13 clay
6 HC
2 grass
Fed: 11 HC (3 Rebound Ace, 5 Deco Turf, 3 Plexicushion). 1 Red Clay, 8 Perennial Rye Grass
Nadal: 6 HC (4 Deco Turf, 1 Plexicushion, 1 Green Set -really a Plexicushion hybrid since only top layer's Green Set), 13 Red Clay, 2 Perennial Rye Grass
Djokovic: 12 HC (3 Deco Turf, 7 Plexicusion, 2 Green Set), 6 Perennial Rye Grass, 2 Red Clay
...In fact, only 5 major events (slams, M1000, & 500) are Category 4 or >er (Halle, Queens, Wimbl., Wash'ton, & Austr.). This combined w/ modern equip. has made S&V a dinosaur. - There are 2 HC Slams & thus twice as many opps. to win them. I'm not sure why I rarely see people make this observ. in these Slam distr. threads...).***
Must be other people! I've been making a huge deal out of this saying it's hard to make Rafa the GOAT due to his unbalanced resume! If not for clay he wouldn't be in the top 6 IMO! His lack of a YEC & his < 1/2 "wks @ #1" can't be overlooked when it comes to Novak & Roger!
***Hindsight's a wonderful tool to have after Nole's decision to do Olympics.***
What reason would he have he couldn't do it? At 35 he was still the toughest out, = on the clay of RG! I had no doubt he'd come back in his match vs Stefanos, but it was almost predictable he wasn't up to the challenge of beating Daniil in NY! He was the only one I worried about & hoped someone'd upset him B4 the final! I know players limitations = if a fanatic! I was one who thought Nole should skip Olympics, but he thought he could get thru it unscathed! He was wrong! It almost ruined his entire 2nd 1/2 of the season close to losing out on YE #1!
***I think everyone knew he was not going to defeat Medvedev @ the USO. The mental pressure he was under again, understandably was far too emotional. Anyway, he has a chance now to defend RF & Wimbl. this yr.***
I think Djokovic has done much > damage to Nadal in this past decade which includes stopping him in X Masters & Majors or ability to accum. a rec. # of wks @ #1. Nadal was far > dom. pre-'11. If Djokovic wasn't born, Nadal wouldn't have had a rival & w/b prob. on his 35th Major right now & prob. over 400 wks as #1.***
ReplyDeleteThat alone is worth lauding Djokovic! The delusion's real when Nadal fans can say he hurt Nole >! Rafa was already well ahead but caught! Nole picked up titles in bunches, eventually overtaking both Fedal except in Majors! For him to have tied them so soon was unfathomable except the true experts! We/they saw the potential @ 12 Majors completing his Nole-Slam & CGS all in one swoop in '16!
***Is it true that Djokovic will get back his #1 ranking on the 14th of March due to Medvedev dropping pts from Marseille? Then it'll depend on what happens in IW's.***
Well that didn't last long! Med got 3 wks out of it anyway! Only Moya & Rafter held it for < X @ 2 & 1 wk. respectively! A-Rod (13 wks) was the last 1 to hold the #1 ranking outside of the Big 4 who ruled for almost 20 solid yrs! This kind of dom. might never again happen as in past gens well B4 the Open Era! It prob. won't happen again; @ least in my lifeX!
***Big 3 @ Masters surface that least suits their game:
Nadal |Masters 1000 HC|
10/75 |titles/particip.| (13,3%)
20/75 |finals/part.| (26,7%)
210:61 |Win/Loss| (77,5%)
30:30 |top 10 Win/Loss| (50%)
--------------------------------
Djokovic |Masters 1000 clay|
10/40 |titles/part.| (25%)
18/40 |finals/part.| (45%)
122:30 |Win/Loss| (80,3%)
31:18 |top 10 Win/Loss| (63,3%)
--------------------------------
Fed |Masters 1000 clay|
6/45 |titles/part.| (13,3%)
16/45 |finals/part.| (35,6%)
113:38 |Win/Loss| (74,8%)
21:15 |top 10 Win/Loss| (58,3%)
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Djokovic's top 3 OE on all surfaces.
#1 on HC
#3 on grass after Fed & Pete
#3 on clay after Nadal & Borg
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It's true that Djokovic's ever so slightly >er on clay > Nadal is on HC. It's actually the only thing that separates them in the H2H, but it's very close...
H2H: Djokovic 30 - 28 Nadal
HC H2H: Djokovic 20 - 7 Nadal
Clay H2H: Nadal 19 - 8 Djokovic
Grass H2H: Djokovic 2 - 2 Nadal
It's that 1 win for Djokovic @ RG'21 that separates them. What a rivalry!
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Djoko missed out in USO '12-14 &'16. Plain & simple.
Djoko had an easy stroll in the USO'15 SF).
Djoko's USO'11 was legit tough. USO'15 was meh (one good, but not > opp. in Fed USO'15 final), USO'18 was weak.
Djoko's already had 4 easy HC wins past his prime (USO'18, AO'19, AO'20, AO'21 - though AO'19 was prime level from him).
Fed USO'09,'11 > Djoko USO'18, AO'20,'21 CLEARLY & those are 2 that Fed didn't win.
USO'15 is around there or >er > 3 of those 4 (USO'18, AO'20, AO'21).***
***...Novak didn't stick to his guns vs Oz & their vax mandate. He looked for the work-around, & thought he had it. Sure, he's good @ languages, which is a gift, but he's not necess. good @ the empathy of reading cultures, which is the > important part about learning languages. Not just having a good ear & memorizing a few phrases. He certainly got the Aussies all wrong when he crowed about his (supposed) exemption into Australia. His English is excellent, his Italian is pretty good, & his French is > passing, but not by much. How much Chinese does he speak, really?
ReplyDeleteAs to being the most "honest & thoughtful," well, surely that's a fan's perspective. SomeX's he's honest to a fault, such as exposing his vacc. opinions B4 he needed to, then wondering why he kept getting asked about it. He thinks a lot about his 'New Age' concepts, but some of them are pretty weird & misguided.***
The delusion "is real" every X we try to include Murray as a significant player in the GOAT race! WHY? Fedalovic have 20+ Majors & well over 20 or 30 Masters 1000 wins respectively! They've owned the tour for almost 20 str. yrs! Murray mhb a signif. #1 & champ. if not for being born the same yr. as Djokovic! No matter how hard he practiced his game, he barely made a crack in the pedestal that they stand on! We really need to quit b/c it's looking > embarrassing the longer this charade goes on as he wastes another WC next wk. in Madrid! Only one of the WC's went to a Spanish player & the country's up in arms! Corps run the show, so tourn. officials barely have a say after all's said & done! They prob. want to see Murray & Osaka along w/ other big name draws!
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...Novak's still the 2nd best clay courter of this era! He's done the most damage to stop Rafa from winning all clay events; someX's in str. sets believe it or not!
***How can you EVER say anything about Novak's clay court meetings vs Rafa on clay the way Rafa destroyed him @ RG'20. Rafa did the same thing to Roger @ RG'08.***
I still don't know "what's the point?" You saying Novak has had no success vs Nadal? Is that it b/c I don't have a clue WTF you're talking about!
***He has played Nadal on clay prob. > anyone. Novak has lost @ > tournaments > anyone. I don't get what your pt. was saying he's done most damage Nadal on clay.***
...Novak has def. Nadal on clay > anyone else! R U drunk?
***Dude. Novak has lost to Rafa > anyone else that he has played. Are U drunk or high?
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What he said was that Novak had "done the > damage to stop Rafa winning all clay events." You have to say that is true. Even if it took him playing a damage" He's played Rafa on clay > anyone. Rafa H2H has twice as many victories on clay over Novak. I know what Fiero's trying to say.
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Rafa has lost very lit'l on clay & to very few players. The guy he's lost the most to, & most importantly is Novak. He's not wrong. Has Rafa capped him far more on clay? Yes he has. Has he beaten him comprehensively on clay? Yes he has. But has any one player been more dangerous on clay to Nadal than Djokovic? No. I'm just being fair to what he stated.***
Some people like to play dumb trying to gaslight me & I'm not having it! I'll move on!
***Fiero,.Novak's played Rafa > anyone. Wouldn't it make logical sense that he has more wins on clay than anyone else? Can someone other than Moxie please tell me what I am missing? I bet Roger m/b the next closest w/ clay court victories vs Nadal. WHY? B/c they've played over 20 X's .Duh?***
Honey, you're delusional! M/b both of us are missing something! At least a detractor has my back understanding me! I "undermine," you inflate!
***It really is about slams now for Djokovic. He has every other rec. wrapped up now. He really doesn't need > X @ #1. He's so far out in front that he might as well be in another X zone if this was a race.***
ReplyDeleteI keep thinking that, but some hard-asses decided to make a big deal out of Graf being @ 377 wks! Not sure it matters since a huge ** s/b behind her name!
***If Djokovic had one of Fedal taken down during their heyday, he'd prob. have gotten over 400 wks @ #1 already, so it doesn't really matter. Graf's #'s have a dark cloud over them. Despite her being an excellent champ., the #'s she has aren't a true reflection.***
It's why Rafa can never be my GOAT! Both Fedovic have a > bal. resume w/ plenty of wins on grass & HC! Nadal's just a clay specialist for the > part! He has no YEC, barely acquired his Dub/ CGS (banished from "down under") earlier this yr., while his tenure @ #1 isn't = close to other greats! Owning Paris alone didn't do it for Borg! He needed those 5 str. Wimbls. t/b a legend while Rafa's still scratching for it!
***This rec.'s something which s/b his only considering Rafa's the >est player @ a single slam. ...I see him taking it to > 120 wins B4 he retires.***
"120" tourn. "wins?" That an opinion or wishful thinking? The upsets will start happening > as X goes on! How can he perform = > > his "hey day" when he was > healthy?
***Nadal's prob. GOAT now (Or CO-GOAT W/ Djokovic @ least due to the 1 slam diff.) but what really hurts Nadal is the amt. of X he spent in the #2 pos. He never truly dom. ...His peak did come along @ a crappy X though.***
I was just thinking about that unfort. X'ing of Rafa's peak! He had had such a great '10 after a LOST '09 thru injury, family drama, etc! Shame that Novak had one of the "GREAT" seasons ever by winning 3 Majors & 5 Masters to blunt Rafa's ascension! Djoker did it by def. Nadal in final after final incl. 2 Masters final on clay (Madrid & Rome)! If not for Novak that yr., = I'd've bow'd to Nadal's >ness! He had another chance in '12, but Roger decided to have a resurrection yr. achieving #1 for a while! It's amazing that the Big 3 have been able to keep each other in check to keep the recs close, but unfort. for Roger, Nadovic can only pull away from him except wks @ #1 where IMO Nadal has no chance to catch up to them!
***The injuries took their toll on his ability to remain #1. After AO'09 he was clear #1 having def. Fed in 3/4 slams. Sod played lights out to beat him @ RG, but there were things going on mentally & physically @ that stage w/ his parents divorce & knee troubles keeping him out of Wimbl. & unable to defend his pts... couldn't really recapture his form til RG'10. '12-13 was out for 7 months.
Regained form & took ascendency over Djokovic again... then he injures his back in AO'14 final... wasn't the same player since. Then X injuries throughout '18... early '19... Djokovic OTOH has pretty much had smooth sailing majority of his career... Fed has had > injury struggles by the same age...
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Fed fans claim Djokovic hitting the levels he did cost Fed so much & while this is true they forget that if Djokovic didn’t Nadal would of cleaned up '10-13. Starting w/ W'11 he'd of done NCYGS as US'11 Djokovic stopped him too then AO'12 where he played incredible, but Djokovic just wouldn’t lose. On paper Nadal’s '11 whb >er > '10 if not for Djokovic.***
Who would've thought Novak'd surpass his '11 w/ an = >er one in '15? He +ed an extra Masters & the YEC to a stellar yr. where only '21 can =; 3 sets from a CYGS!
***W/ Nole's 2R win today ...won > matches @ RG(83) > @ any of the other majors, & The FO's his weakest slam! Just extraordinary consistency from Earth's Mightiest.***
Upsets have always been rare w/ Djokovic! He gets thru somehow = though undermined!
***Djokovic Record Most Eternal?
ReplyDeleteHe's still active & able to + to some of these, but pt. stands these are recs. he currently owns.
...I think these are most difficult to supersede:
13 of 14 Premier Finals ('15)- Of course this c/b made easier by +ing > Masters & yes these events are clearly separated from the rest of the tour. As it stands however the only way to beat this rec. is by making all of the finals @ this level, Fed's the closest making 11 in '06. I can see a 10th Masters event being +ed, but it remains t/b seen how mandated these tourns. are like in the 90s & so I'd still raise the bar for anyone to make say, 14 of 15 finals or 14 of 16. Novak also had a yr. making 10 in '12 while Nadal's best was in '13 making 9. I think this rec., if the tour retains any semblance of how it is now leaves very lit'l room t/b bested & the tour could = shrink these events in a future where perhaps it makes > sense having > 500s, etc.
Most AO Titles (Men)- This currently stands @ 9 & = if it remains so, like Nadal's obscene FOs, it'd require an unimaginable consistency w/ such a big # typically weighing on younger players = contemplating the practicality. Of course if you think he +s >, it makes it that much harder. Course Slams altogether could go Bo3 in earlier Rds & get easier collectively, yet still any tourn. per. becomes hard to win 8, 9, 10 X's as so many things change. There are also ecological & economic considerations that could specifically alter the AO landscape, we can only imagine.
Most Wks @ #1- I think this is slightly bigger > his YE total as the YE c/b had w/ comparatively few wks @ #1 if they coincide w/ the end of the season. The current mark of 373 was = shortened due to Covid mandates, yet still 20% clear above the previous rec. He could very well + to it B4 he's done. But since rankings began only 6 players have garnered over 200 wks while Connors @ 268, Lendl @ 270 & Sampras @ 286 were well short of 300. It is therefore quite obvious as the amt. of wks needed to best is ever > stretched, it'll eventually be difficult to top. I will say an interesting plausible rec. Novak could also have is most wks @ #1 for 2 decades requiring someone to do it somehow in 3, although much X remains for the 2020s.
All premier events won twice- This supersede the # as whatever the future holds, we assume the Slams & tourns. viewed in the supporting sphere remain. To win every one of those twice is esp. a daunting task as Djokovic became the 1st man to win them all once. The only way to brk that is to win them all 3 X's. And in case you're wondering, Novak himself only lacks a 3rd Monte Carlo, Cinci., & FO to do just that.
18 cons. finals @ Masters or above- From the '14 Paris Masters to the '16 Miami Masters, Djokovic made the final of every tourn. that mattered in pts & $$ he entered including 2 WTFs & 5 Slams. His only skip was the '15 Madrid Masters. So the "easy" way to beat this as it currently stands is to simply not skip one of these tourns. in that span of time.
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Lendl, like Djokovic didn't do enough during the peaks of his rivals t/b considered >er. Their careers are in some ways similar. By the X Lendl got t/b top man in '85, he'd suffered that many big defeats to McEnroe & Connors, he was always seen as being below them. It's similar for Djokovic. He was #3 for so long until '11 & had suffered that many big losses that by the X he got to #1 he was never perceived as #1. There's a lesson there for young players. Getting big results early on vs rivals does matter. Alcaraz has done that.
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Nadal hasn't beat Djokovic off clay since '13. - Who cares? ...Djokovic will never get his name on a list like that, he just doesn't have the transcendence, the cut thru.***
It won't matter if he owns every important rec. in Tennis! He w/b perfectly fine while allowing a myth/fraud t/b perpetrated that tennis begins & ends w/ Fedal!
***Who would you like to see win USO this year?***
ABN = Anybody but Nadal! ;-)
***Novak's supposed to have a 3 yr. ban from Australia after what happened this yr.***
ReplyDeleteI'd hope they would get over their stupidity! If these Koala Bear burger eating MF'rs try to sustain a 3 yr. ban on Djokr like this, they're done IMO!
***Yeah, it's stupid. It was stupid then & now looks = > stupid. But = so, IDK why that w/b a "slap in the face" of the vaccinated? - Novak wanted t/b exempted from the vaccine for no other reason than that he doesn't want to take it. ...The decision came down against him, & it included a 3-year ban. Now he's (presumably) appealing that part of the decision, though there were meant t/b no appeals. If it gets lifted, it could very well look like special treatment. ...He was deported for something like being a public nuisance, a threat to good order. ...IMO, it w/b a "slap" to the vac'd for the very reason that they did what was right for the public good.
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This is not about vacc. It's about immigration; completely diff. & a lot > serious. Careful what you say about the Australians or they may send the Koala Bears after you.
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Contrary to the myth that Djokovic has the > complete game... Fed's bane is simply his single-handed BH which is unreliable & causes consistency issues or breakdown under pressure. 2 handed-BH's are much > reliable & consistent w/ another arm to help the racquet.
Fed's >er @ lit. every type of stroke except flat/topspin BH.
Serve - Federer
Forehand - Fed
Volleys - Fed
Overhead - Fed
Slice BH - Fed
No one would = disagree w/ any of that right? So the only thing Djokovic's >er @ is BH & b/c of that > better @ ROS. He's also just a super-consistent reliable player in gen. which gets you > results in tennis. But Fed clearly has the > complete game.
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I do also think Fed's the > complete player, but that's not why he beat Djokovic when he did. Fed had the game to blast Djokovic off the court. Fed had the FH & serve to simply blow Djokovic away. Once Fed slowed down, he couldn't run around his BH as often, & not only hit too many shots w/ the BH. he also didn't hit enough FH's.***
The rivalry started in '08 w/ Novak upseting a prime Fed in one of his fave tourns. "down under!" Paris just not to his liking only by the results! Had enough finals
***# of X' a player faced 3 or > Top 10 Seeds in a Single Slam:
Federer - 12 X's (Won 6 X's, lost 6 X's )
Djokovic - 11 X's (Won 6 X's, lost 5 X's)
Nadal - 7 X's ( Won 5 X's, lost 2 X's )
Lendl - 6 X's ( Won 3, Lost 3)
Sampras - 3 X's ( Won 2 X's, lost 1 X)
McEnroe - 4 X's ( Won 1, lost 3)
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Novak had it the toughest to brk thru, in '03 Fed had to go thru Philippoussis & Roddick as his obstacles to win his 1st slam & gain confidence. When Nadal arrived in '05, Fed was @ his peak, but other > that, players weren't strong enough, so he rose to 2. When Novak had reached his 1st slam finals, there was Fedal firm, a wall of 2 GOATs to brk. Most people wouldn't have broken thru, but Djokovic did hang in & eventually in '11 he announced that his era's beginning. Going by the draws, Fed did face a lot of top 10 & so did Novak to win his slams. Fed whb the winner of the race, but he choked his chances away, really sad. Nadal bene. from Corona & Novak lost a lot, no doubt on this. ...If Fedalovic were of the same age, then Nadal would find it very tough to win non-clay slams since he w/b the 3rd seed. He'd have to beat both the 1st & 2nd seeds b2b in SF & F to lift the non-clay slams, that's Peak Fed & Novak. This way luck has shined on Nadal that Fed's older & Novak himself matured a bit late.***
***Fed also lost an OGM match to Murray on Wimbl. Centre Court. Some say he's the best Wimbl. player ever.***
ReplyDeleteAnother rec. to go down in flames w/i 2 yrs! Novak's on his way to owning AO & Wimbl.! That was another reason to believe Fed was the GOAT winning 5 str. Wimbls. & the USO, but only intermittantly +ed to his totals since! His USO feat will last the longest it seems!
***Winning an OGM meant so much to Novak, he forgot that the CYGS was slipping away.***
Djokovic blew it! Was too greedy! Going to Tokyo for the Olympics was a huge mistake; his father argued vs him going! A real shame!
***Massive mistake. I suppose he saw the GCGS as a given w/ Rafa missing. Who could stop him but himself? - Djokovic blew it or Medvedev won it?***
Both IMO! I mentioned B4 the USO began that for Novak to have a chance to win, Medvedev had t/b upset! Going to Japan only made the job harder for him! BO3 matches on a slow or fast HC was only going to test his nerves = > while holding 3 other majors in '21! He had a target on his back & was blown away 3 X's; 2 in Tokyo & 1 in USO final! Mentally Novak had a >er chance in NY w/o dropping unncess. matches in Japan! I was shocked he recovered enough to take Paris Masters over Daniil!
***Novak currently holds the rec. for > defeats in a slam final there!***
Djokovic's rec. @ Majors shows he owns AO, "down under," taking 3 in a row twice, w/ 9 Chps. overall! Wimbl. m/b his as well soon holding 7 titles & def. the "so called" grass GOAT 3 X's in finals! As for the USO, IDK what else he can do to show his dom. sans winning the title >? He's been in the final 9 X's, winning 3! The FO > Fed who had > opps.! After this Wimbl. we find out Novak's the only player w/ 80+ match wins @ all 4 Majors, well ahead of Fedal who own > USO's & FO Chps. respectively! His Nole-Slam stands alone along w/ sev. occasions he won 3 majors in a row to m/b complete 2 or 3 >! So many of Novak's accomplishments standalone in the rec.bk.! - ...Weak? Novak only made 9 finals, 1 > anyone else like Lendl who made all his in a row! How weak could he be if he's making all these finals from '07-21? How many has Nadal made; 5? When was the last X Fed made a final; 2015? ND Weak? I think not!
***Impressive! But they all have recs. that standalone e.g Nadal 14 RG titles. ...I think Nadal has faced either Fedovic or both on route to 11 out of the 14 titles which makes it = > astounding. - Fed's old now. He was 35 in '15? Djokovic didn't make the final @ the USO this yr. @ the same age.
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Rafa has 4 USO's; 4 out of 9 tries in the last 15 yrs. @ a tourn. many said he'd never win.***
It looked bleak for Nadal in NY w/ so many bad losses early on in his career! He never got to a final until '10! He seemed tired after winning those FO's so it was understandable the doubt he'd ever win, but after all this X he's still no king of HC's that's for sure! That moniker belongs to Novak w/ 12 Major HC wins to Nadal's 6!
***Likewise Novak's no "King of Clay;" 14 to 2.***
Novak's @ least a "Prince" w/ many wins over Nadal on clay; > anyone else; esp. Roger who s/b embarrassed AF w/ so many opps!
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Djokovic has redefined the standards of excel. If & when he wins 8 Wimbls., he w/b grass court GOAT given he has beaten Fed 3 X's in finals!
***TBF Fed’s master's win in Paris was super susp. ...When shit went down w/ the tourn. dir. admitting that he wanted Fed to win it. They lit. asked Fed what surface he wanted it t/b & then made it that (& changed it delib. to help him win).***
A lot >'s suspect during Fed's early yrs.! I just watched a You-Tube video showing evidence w/ "statistics" that major draws were fixed to give an advantage to Fedal! It's amazing how sleazy it's been & never really discussed! Nole seemed t/b in Fed's 1/2 while Murray in Nadal's! It worked for a few yrs. until Novak came into his own & started beating Roger like a drum, esp. "down under" in Austr.! So after all's said & done, = w/ the help of tourn. dir., Fed's inflated #'s won't be enough! He'll still wind up in 3rd place behind Djokovic & Nadal!
******If Fed had won Wimbl.'19, he'd've beaten both Nadal & Djokovic enroute to a GS. That'd've +ed a lot > to his ATG status. Unfortunately his mental weaknesses vs Nadal /Djokovic showed up again @ 40-15.
ReplyDelete---
If the gap btw Roger to Djokovic & Nadal was actually 10 yrs., then Roger could've gotten away w/ it. Nadal's 1st slam wouldn't arrive B4 '10 & his peak would only begin in '13. Novak's would begin in '15 only. Roger would've crossed 20 B4 '13 itself & = if he retired in 2 yrs (say '15), then people would say 'ok, now next-gen. are taking over & Roger's own era is finished. But sadly they're not a full Gen. apart, so they all arrived in the 2000s itself just a few yrs. after Roger started winning slams.***
I'm sure Nadal was shocked AF when he went down to 'Old Man' Fed "down under" & @ Wimbl. in '17! Roger did Rafa the favor of getting to yet 1 > FO SF to lose in '19!
***Absolutely. Fed was on a completely diff. plane in '17. He beat Rafa 4 X's no < (AO '17, IW, MI, & SH). The '19 loss was in some sense inevitable as '17 was a clear outlier in terms of his performances during '10-19 overall.
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Open Era Ranking:
1 Federer
2 Sampras
3 Djokovic
4 Nadal
5 Lendl***
M/b 10 yrs. ago! Prob's Djokovic had 3 career seasons after turning 30! Nadal continued to own RG after personally stopping Roger was getting > his 1 "vultured" win after the upset by Soderling! Even if Djokovic hbd after '16 campaign, his '15 season set him apart from every pro since the computer started keeping tabs on the pro game! If Fed had the Major's rec., he'd have lit'l else since Nadovic took over lead in Masters events & they both have H2H lead over him! If Fed had retired after Wimbl. wins in '12 or '17, we could've finessed an ATG moniker that was above Nadovic being able to muse "what if?" Hanging on for 5+ yrs to + 3 majors, I just didn't think it worth his legacy! He wasted last 2 yrs!
1. Djokovic - w/ > signif. recs. save 1 major < Nadal, 2 GM's, 2 CGS, 7 YE #1's, 373 wks. @ #1
2. Fed - Best I can do < in majors. Has 8 Wimbls, 5 str. USO's, but H2H < Nadovic, & down 2 YE #1's
3. Nadal - The > Majors @ 22, not very prolif. holding #1 ranking, has rec. 14 FO, 2 CGS's, 5 YE #1's
4. Laver - Has 2 CYGS (Am./Pro), lost 5-6 B4 OE Tennis, never won WCT Final
5. Sampras - Was the GOAT for 8+ yrs B4 Roger > 14 in '09, has 7 Wimbl. vics., & 5 USO's
***Djokovic ties Fed w/ a title in a *19th* different country:
Netherlands
France
Australia
USA
Portugal
Canada
Austria
Italy
China
UAE
Serbia
Switzerland
Spain
UK
Monaco
Qatar
Japan
Israel
Kazakhstan***
***...Novak's 1st Slam @ an older age > Rosewall w/b the '24 USO, I believe.***
ReplyDeleteLike winning this past YEC/WTF, it only matters about being the oldest champ. if it happens! It doesn't mean much; but gives bragging rights! IMO, nothing was > impressive > Novak's season in '21, being just 1 match from a CYGS @ 34! I'd like Nadal or Fed to have done that! Stealing 1 major is 1 thing, but to take all 4, now that w/b monumental either way; now or later!
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Novak was limited in his access to quite a few tournaments, but somehow got enough out of it that it wasn't a wasted season w/ 1 major, a Masters, & the YEC!
***'22 ATP Top 10 by Win %:
1. Djokovic 42-7 (85.7%)
2. Nadal 39-8 (83%)
3. Alcaraz 57-13 (81.4%)
4. Kyrgios 37-10 (78.7%)
5. Sinner 47-16 (74.6%)
6. Zverev 29-10 (74.4%)
7. Berrettini 32-12 (72.7%)
8. Rublev 51-20 (71.83%)
9. Tsitsipas 61-24 (71.76%)
10. Medvedev 45-19 (70.3%)***
Well Novak avoided dropping too many matches to the Mill. NG'rs! He prob. shouldn't've dropped either to Alcaraz or Rune but for indecision by him @ the net late! Rafa was going down in flames to many; FAA, Tiafoe, Alcaraz, Fritz, Shapovalov, & Coric! Changing of the guard? Perhaps! We'll see!
***- 10 cons. yrs of winning @ least a major & a masters. (Alcaraz might brk this).***
Well Novak's the GOAT if M-1000 determines it as he owns a rec. 38 events, has a DGM's; def. 31 top 10 players in '15! Cont. the >est season, '15 had him entering 8 of 9 events, made all 8 finals, winning 6! All his own recs, then +ing the YEC having him take 10 of the top 14 ATP major events of the season! I think a bunch of these recs. will last a very long X as no one's taken care of themselves the way Novak does to this day! It's allowed him t/b one match from a CYGS @ 34 yo in '21! I'm surprised > conspiracies haven't been created as he's done super-human feats of excel. no matter his bad press over the yrs!
***Nadal ended sev. of Peak Fed's streaks, includ. 65 str. wins on grass, 56 str. wins on HC's, 237 cons. wks @ #1, 5 str. Wimbl. titles, 4 str. yrs of YE #1 (likely hits 7 str. w/ no Nadal). Prime Fed had his hands entirely full w/ Nadal. Nothing vs Djoker, other > passing or matching many of Fed's key recs. ...I want Nadal to get that slam rec. Had Djoker come up ahead of X, I might think diff.
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Honestly, just enjoy Nadal & Djokovic while they're still here. Imagine when all 3 are retired.***
...Fedal've lasting affects to the history of the game due to their excel. & longevity! ...If not for Novak, it whg > & > boring as NG after Lost NG, to the new Mill. NG'r brk'n thru a lit'l as Fed fades into obscurity! It's all about the FINAL GOAT which's making Rafa hang in there an extra-ord. amt. of X trying to finish on TOP for good! It's really going t/b btwn. Nadovic as their #'s have overwhelmed Roger B4 he = retired!
***The YEC prob. the hardest event for Nadal; easiest for Djokovic.***
ReplyDeleteObvious myth that the top 8 players are there! Never happens! Someone's always being left off or injured! Alt.'s are usually weak & lose 2 or 3 matches in the RR!
***Nadal is epic.***
But may never win = 1 YEC/WTF! That's either KARMA or a bal. of power as he's the "clay GOAT!" Roger & Nole own the grass & HC's!
***Wait, who won WTF in '10? I just assumed that only Nadal could def. #1, 3, 4, 5, & #7***
Rafa's never won this tourn.! He made 2 or 3 finals over the last decade or so, but that's been about it! He actually lost all 3 of his RR matches in '09 OTTH! Novak def. him in his best season of '13 in the final in str. sets actually!
***Fed, Sampras, Becker, Lendl, Mac. All >er > Djokovic indoors. Yes.***
Possibly, but we'll never know as they come from diff. eras! We need to get over it! Djokovic'll still own all the recs b/c he's "The Man" now!
***Djokovic winning > w/ nothing special level in inflation era isn't going to change things level wise.***
Well, when it comes to Roger, I'm not so sure! Nole proved himself early & often def. Fed at the USO, AO, & Wimbl.; often saving MP's! He wasn't over the hill!
***'10 YEC was prob. around a similar level as good '12 Fed, Fall '12 Fed was a bit below. Certainly good '12 Fed has a decent chance to beat Djokovic in that YEC final, but not a lock.***
Hon, did you = look @ the tourn. rec.? We know Novak was able to beat Fed on one of his fave surfaces b/c he did it in '12, '13, '15 & '14 W/O! He did it in str. sets as well! I m/b missing someone's pt.! Hilarious, regard< as Djokovic takes, brks, & owns tons of recs. Fedal used to hold!
***That's true, the '14 walkover's really the straw that brks the camel's back here dahlin'.***
Besides Rafa not winning a YEC, he was destroyed in str. sets by Novak in Nadal's super-season of '13!
***Looking @ the list of players def., easily Fed.
Finals alone we have:
Djokovic:
'08: Davydenko
'12: Fed
'13: Nadal
'14: W/O
'15: Fed
'22: Ruud
Federer:
'03: Agassi
'04: Hewitt
'06: Blake
'07: Ferrer
'10: Nadal
'11: Tsonga
Federer went 5-0 in 5 of his 6 WTF titles. ('07) Loss to Gonzales
Djokovic went 5-0 in 4 of his 6 WTF titles. ('08 & '15). Losses to Tsonga & Fed)
Players def. in their > recent WTF Title:
Djokovic '22:
Rublev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Fritz, Ruud
Fed '11:
Nadal (bagelled), Tsonga, Fish, Ferrer, Tsonga
Fed w/ a clear advantage. Every stat other > the # of titles goes Fed's way as it is. Another thing is that one of his titles Djokovic won w/ a WO in the final. No tea, no shade, Novak had no choice in the matter, but in a practical sense it still means he won 5 finals for his 6 titles. Fed won 6 for 6.***
***...Roger won 3 Majors post 35, & made finals of @ least 1 Wimbl. What's bad about that? When'd YOU have had him quit?***
ReplyDeleteWillful ignorance! I already have said the best X to retire whb after '12 Wimbl.! The best exs. of what early retiring does to a legacy is so obvious w/ a player like Borg! In football it's Jim Brown who held the rushing rec. for almost 30 yrs = though he only played 9 yrs. & limited to 12 games! In basketball it was Jordon who retired twice only to return w/ limited success the 3rd X around! He hurt his legacy too & ended up doubly tragic when his mgmt. of a basketball team came into ??! He's been the worst GM in the league! If you're still saying "duh, IDK WTF," sorry bout that! I've never dealt w/ "special needs!"
***Here's why Djok won 4 Wimbl. in a row @ age 31+:
'18: Easy draw to sf having to only play Nishikori whilst Nadal had to play an 'on fire' Delpo for nearly 5 hrs... no argument from Djok fans saying he'd've handled Delpo >er... we all saw in '13 that the Delpo match destroyed him for the final. Oh, & there's the +ed advantage of closed roof... still just barely got past 32 yo Nadal.
'19: Draws a weak qf + sf op. whereas Fed got Nadal. Nadal & Djok were both playing lower level > '18 so having a sf w/ Nadal.. then if he gets past that, he's not beating Fed in the final.
'21: garbage draw
'22: horse piddle draw
It's all about the luck w/ draws for him. That's why his inflated Wimbl. title ct. is the >est crime poss. in tennis history...***
Wow! What's amazing is Nadal fans go nuts calling his detractors "trolls" for pointing out the same things you're mentioning to undermine Djokovic's accompl.! If Novak ties & surpasses Fed, no amt. of ugly trolling will discourage future fans of the game not to anoint his the BOAT! I personally think his AO results are > noteworthy; winning 3 in a row twice (never done B4), he owns the tourn. like Nadal owns Paris, & has quite a few recs. "down under" that'll prob. never be broken!
***#1: ...Djokovic had the much tougher road to Wimbl. finals. ...It w/b ridiculous to think '14 & '15 Murray'd beat Djokovic.
#2: How come Fed gets to start being good on grass @ 22, but Djokovic has t/b good enough to take on early-career prodigy Nadal (as an = younger player)? He faced Nadal in '07 (@ 20 to Nadal's 21, in his 2nd-ever SF to Nadal's 5 GS SF (& 17th in Big Titles). Then he needs to take out Nadal in Queen's Club in the same yr. Nadal beats 5-X str. Wimbl. champ (& 27 yo) Fed? Unreasonable.
Djokovic does fail to meet Nadal in '10, but succeeds in meeting him (& winning) in '11 (aged 24 vs Nadal's 25). Then Nadal's the one who proceeds to fail to meet him until '18 (whereas Djokovic made the SF's in 4 of those 6 yrs. - where Nadal would've been aged 26-31. Plenty of prime yrs. left).
#3: Djokovic didn't have many ops to stop Fed B4 he turned 32. In '07, Fed was already 26. It's safe to say Djokovic wasn't beating any Fed B4 '10, but why'd he w/b expected to either? In '10, Novak was 23, just a yo'er > Fed himself was when he won his 1st Wimbl. If we hold Novak to Fed's standards, he should've met Fed in '09, '10, '11, & '12 (B4 Fed was 32).
...
09 - He failed. Nothing else to say.
10 - He wouldn't have made it, but Fed lost too. Can't hold it against him.
11 - Fed's the one to fail to make it here.
12 - Fed wins their 1st Wimbl. match. Novak should've won here if he were a grass great. But OTOH, Fed's 31 to Novak's 25. Physical advantage for Novak yes, but Fed's a def. exp. gap, partic. on grass.
So, 1 failure each & a matchup. Of all the yrs. Novak had to face a pre-32 Fed & beat him, he just failed to do so twice. OTOH, from that moment on he made 7/9 Wimbl. finals. He faced Fed a further 3 X's, beating him every X. He faced Nadal again as well. Beat him also, as well as everyone else except for Querrey & Berdych.
...What I'm arguing is that Djokovic did not wait for Murray/Nadal to age. Nor did he necess. wait for Fed - that was simply a byproduct. Similar to how Roger didn't wait for Agassi to get old in the AO.***
***Slam #22. Congrats to Novak. #1 in the World again as he def. Tsitsipas in AO Final in str. sets.***
ReplyDeleteAnother "dart to the heart" as Newbie touts Novak as "The Goat!" It's been repeatedly said by Sascha, Daniil, & now Stefanos!
***Stefanos called him the greatest to have ever held a racquet. Kind words. - It all falls back in place. Novak wasn't = pushed this slam.
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Tsitispas reminds me of Fed a lit'l. Similar serve, big FH & 1-handed BH. I think he c/b #1 & battle Alcaraz for it in next few yrs. Stefanos faced arguably the GOAT today so = Fed in his prime could've lost in strs. here @ AO vs this Djokovic. I think Stef needs to improve his slice & volleys.... then he w/b closer to Fed. I feel Stef needs a better slice & BH to beat in-form Novak, @ least on some big occasions.
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'a lit'l bit >'
- Nole's also the oldest YE #1.
- Only player to win at least 80 matches at all 4 slams
- Only player to make at least 7 slam semis all 4 slams
- Only player to win at least 7 slams at 2 diff. events
- Only player to win at least 7 slams at diff. events on diff. surfaces (Hard,Grass)
- Only player to win 4 slams in a row on 3 diff. surfaces
- Most Sunshine Dubs - 4 ('11,'14,'15,'16)
- Most cons. Sunshine Dubs ( '14,'15,'16)
- Most AO-IW-Miami triples ( '11, '15, 16)
- Most big titles won in a row on the Cal. - 7 ( USO '15, Shanghai '15, Paris '15, WTF '15, AO '16, IW '16, Miami '16)
- Only player to win the 1st 4 big events of the season - (AO '15, IW '15, Miami '15, MC '15)
- Only player to win the 1st 3 Masters of the season (IW, Miami, MC '15)
- Longest X btwn. 1st & last YEC win - 14 yrs
Djokovic also owns the rec. for the > cons. appearances in big titles finals in events played - 17 big finals in 17 big events played.
Paris '14, YEC '14, AO '15, IW '15, Miami '15, MC '15, Rome '15, RG '15, Can. '15, Cincy '15, USO '15, Shanghai '15, Paris '15, YEC '15, AO '16, IW '16, Miami '16
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Djoker vs Rafa:
- More grass titles overall
- More grass slams
- More HC titles overall
- More HC slams
- More Indoor titles overall
- Djokovic also dethroned all of Nadal's '10 wins ( MC '10 - dethroned in '13, Madrid '10 - dethroned in '11, Rome '10 - dethroned in '11, RG '10 - dethroned in '15, Wimbl. '10 - dethroned in '11, USO '10 - dethroned in '11)
- Beaten Nadal @ all 4 major clay events ( MC, Madrid, Rome, RG)
- Beaten Nadal in all clay masters finals ( MC '13, Madrid '11, Rome '11, '14)
- After losing in his 1st ever Masters final in IW '07, Djokovic has never lost a masters final on HC to Nadal again, & only actually lost one match on HC in masters play in Montreal '13
- Two winning streaks of 7-0 against Nadal across all surfaces.
- Djokovic is also the 1st & only player to beat the world #1 (Nadal) in 5 cons. finals ( IW '11, Miami '11, Madrid '11, Rome '11, Wimbl. '11)
- Djokovic's only player to beat the same player in the final in 3 cons. slams, that being Nadal ( Wimbl. '11, USO '11, AO '12)
A few trival ones:
Djokovic has not lost on HC in over 9 yrs, he's 19-0 in sets played
Djokovic has not lost on grass in over 14 yrs.
Djokovic has str. set Nadal @ 2 diff. slams on diff. surfaces (RG '15, AO '19)
Djokovic has won > sets vs Nadal @ MC & are tied 2-2
Djokovic has beaten Nadal @ all 4 slams, the opp's not true
Djokovic is only player to beat Nadal X X's in clay slams
Djokovic only player to have dethroned Nadal twice @ RG ('15, '21)
Djokovic has wins over Nadal @ 8 of the 9 masters, w/ the 9th being Shanghai, where they've not played.
Djokovic has perfect recs over Nadal @ AO, Miami, Cinci & Paris
Djokovic only player to beat Nadal both outdoors ('11) & indoors ('18) @ Wimbl.
Djokovic's only player to beat Nadal @ RG & then win the title
Djokovic has a DCS which includes a win over Nadal @ RG, the opp. for Nadal having a win over Djokovic @ AO is not true.
Djokovic has defended slams on 2 diff, surfaces @ 2 diff. venues
Djokovic has won 3 slams in a row @ 2 diff. events, Nadal only @ one.***
Thanks! ;-)
***... But Novak's sleepwalking thru slams & > tourns. for that matter. And he's 35 yo.***
ReplyDeleteSeek help babe! J/b Roger was playing so pathetically in '09, winning thru a weak field, he was able to steal a FO & Wimbl. titles! Over the yrs. Roger had no comp. B4 Nadovic! Safin & Nalbandien broke up the party for him a couple X's, but that was about it! Get off the fanboy platform & see reality!
***I dont need to seek any help @ all. A guy just walked thru the AO @ 35 & didn't lose a set. That tells me 2 things. - He's good, & his comp. isnt. Not only that, but w/ a hamstring injury. He did drop a set though. ...Tsitsipa's 25, & he still dropped 3 sets. Heck, I w/b > open to Novak just being amazing if these dudes @ least like made him sweat or something. - - Fedal winning @ 35, they're just epic. Djokovic's winning @ 35 "Houston we have a problem- the Tour stinks."***
Hypocrisy reigns globally w/ these idiots who can't keep their complaints str. on the sad state of affairs concerning the ATP!
***Yeah, they act like '17 was 2 centuries ago & that we don't recall what was written about the Heroical, spectacular, mythical, can't do any wrong Goat w/ unseen longevity Fed, j/b he won a Slam as a 35 y/o.***
WTF are you talking about? Did you forget Roger resurgence, winning Masters & Slams in '17-18? GAWD save us from the stupidity & ignorance out there!
***I just said that. Roger did play well into his mid 30s, but he wasn't just smoking people. He lost 7 sets @ the AO in '17.***
The rec.bk. of accomps. will obviously mean > than Nadovic close H2H in majors; esp. overall Majors, Masters, YE #1, & wks. @ #1!
***Peak Elo by surface - m/b not as "objective" as you want, but still gives us a sense of peak levels of various players on diff. surfaces:
CLAY
1. Nadal 2669
2. Borg 2650
3. Djokovic 2538
4. Lendl 2536
5. Vilas 2521
6-10: Clerc 2469, Muster 2458, Fed 2453, Nastase 2440, Connors 2439
GRASS
1. Borg 2562
2. Laver 2561
3. Fed 2547
4. Connors 2542
5. Djokovic 2540
6-10: McEnroe 2517, Sampras 2501, Rosewall 2500, Murray 2487, Edberg 2482
(#14. Nadal 2401)
HARD
1. Djokovic 2670
2. Fed 2637
3. Sampras 2524
4. Lendl 2512
5. Nadal 2506
6-10: Agassi 2500, Murray 2490, Laver 2459, McEnroe 2453, Edberg 2429
(#33. Borg 2295)
CARPET
1. McEnroe 2690
2. Borg 2582
3. Lendl 2563
4. Becker 2542
5. Laver 2540
6-10: Connors 2530, Edberg 2444, Smith 2441, Sampras 2407, Ashe 2405)
Note that Novak's the only player who's top 5 in all 3 current surfaces.***
***Novak's behaviour last yr. in Austr. was disgraceful. ...he was when he claims he'd tested + for Covid, then decided it's a > idea to hang around being photographed w/ a bunch of kids, & do a TV inter. Regard< of anyone's ops on wearing masks, that was either arrogant or stupid, & it flouted the law.***
ReplyDeleteI was ok until you got to "arrogant or stupid!" No one at the top of anything c/b any < a POS @ X's; sans Stefan Edberg! Players like Nadal double down w/ being incommunical after all these yrs! ...stunted his ability to absorb conversational English! Being top dog on the tour is one of the many reasons to rise to mythical hts. of fame, riches, & entitlement! Who wouldn't love t/b excused for something an "ordinary Joe" w/b arrested? Who're we KIDDING? Fedal have run the tour on & off the court w/ impunity for yrs.! Novak has been their only "downer!"
***ChatGBT:
1. Djokovic
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Nadal
5. McEnroe
6. Borg
7. Connors
8. Lendl
9. Laver
10. Becker
Yeah, not buying it. Sampras ahead of Fedal? Laver @ #9 kinda makes sense if it's considering OE only, & I don't hate Becker over Agassi.***
As X's gone on, I've stayed w/ notion of Rod Laver being near the top All X no matter the era considered! He did so much as an Am/Pro! The only event missing from his resume was the WCT Chp. in Houston/Dallas! Rosewall stopped him in 5 set classics in '71 & '72 Finals! His last big chance was in '75, but ran into Borg in the SF! If Bjorn had allowed the old man this one match, he prob. would've won seeing as Arthur Ashe was his personal pigeon!
***I think the surfaces def. play a role in dictating who'll win. Rafa v Novak H2H is almost identical, w/ Rafa leading on clay by an almost similar amt. as Novak leads on HC's. If 2/3 of the MS tourneys, 100% of WTF’s & 50% of slams were on clay, we’d have to still be careful in declaring Rafa’s the GOAT, for the same reason we s/b wary of declaring Novak or Roger as GOAT's for playing largely on home courts. And that’s = B4 we go slightly back in X to an era when grass & clay were as opp. as ice & mud.***
I miss those days when the surfaces were quite distinct & gave "also rans" of the tour a chance to upset an elite player! Times have changed to accom. the top pros; going 32 seeds, homogenizing the court surfaces, PR's, etc.! Like we discussed a wk. or so ago, the tour overcompensated when Fedal had to WD from a Masters' event after going 5 long sets in Hamburg final 15 yrs. ago! The same players wouldn't make cons. finals often enough for the need after the Big 3 retire! They need to go back to BO5 finals IMO to make them special & above 250 & 500 events!
***ITA w/ this. They ought to've kept BO5 for MS finals. So what if the Big 3 couldn’t recover in X? Somebody else would get a taste of winning & that opens up things immed. to a whole diff. long term scenario, far as the hierarchy's concerned.
---
Djokovic has a HUGE prob. named Alcaraz. Also, Medvedev will give him headaches. Couple that w/ the new kids coming up that can cause him problems; Rune, Sinner, Felix. Djokovic's vulturing window is closing @ a rapid pace.***
Djokovic is near the end of his career! Why in TF would he stress over NG'rs who can barely hold his jockstrap? He owned the last few months of last season & has started off brilliantly this season! "Hater" need to find a new way of trying to undermine Novak! It's pathetic when they can't look @ results & acknowledge the tour is being beaten by someone extraordinary, not just taking advantage of a weak era! That says every one else sucks @ the same X haters say Novak's in trouble w/ Carlos & Daniil! Make up your fk'n mind; which is it?
***Some people don’t like Novak irrespective of how many titles he wins. He m/b ‘extraordinary,’ but he isn’t liked very much by a large # of tennis fans. ...Not sure why it bothers you if you think he's the >est anyway.***
Novak's passed just about all the meaningful recs. sooner > Fedal & people are still undermining his accomps.! It's sad & stupid! Ignoring the #'s makes no fk'n sense!
***Djokovic has 2 slams on his Fave surface HC's while Fedal only has 1. ...Not to mention Borg & laver are > Talented players compared to Djokovic.***
ReplyDeleteSafin had > talent > > players, but unfort. his head wasn't on str.! He was a > powerful "Ilie Nastase" w/ plenty of touch & feel, but could # the ball & run a guy from side to side that could rival Fedalovic; hence def. Roger in his prime @ '05 AO SF IIRC! Talent means nothing in the end if the #'s don't corroberate that talent! Memories are fleeting & X eventually moves on w/ the latest & >est! Laver & Borg have sustained their >ness longer > > legends w/ their names being invoked quite often! ...W/ the hoarding of major events by The Big 3, anything & everyone may never register as a blip on the radar if they can't = get to Pete's accomplishments, much < Fedalovic!
*** I'm pointing out that part of the reason Novak & Rafa are winning so many Slams in their mid-30s is b/c there are no young all-X >'s taking over the tour, @ least not as of now.***
The Big 3 have just been so dom.; nothing like the past! I can still remember when NG'rs came on the scene & made an impression on all the top players; = w/ McEnroe, Connors, & Lendl! You had Wilander, then Edberg, Becker, & eventually having to deal w/ Sampras, Agassi, Chang, & Courier! Today's players have the talent & stamina, but it isn't enough to finish off the old guard for some reason! MP's c/b w/i their grasp, but are unable to finish them off > of the X!
***Thanks - that's sort of what I've said. The Big 3 really only had each other, except for the occasional challenger here & there. Novak presumably w/b the last man standing, & when he's fully supplanted, it w/b in the latter 1/2 of his 30s. Previous cohorts of >'s were all supplanted @ much younger ages.***
The Big 3 w/b a debatable topic of disc. for @ least 20 yrs. or so no matter the agreement on most issues; real #'s & length of dom.! The problem w/ the desenters is > subjective as to go "off the grid!" The passion was = w/ me early on giving Roger every benefit of the doubt when Rafa was schooling him on all surfaces by the end of '09 AO! We couldn't keep saying it was all about "the clay!" HC & grass wasn't a sanctuary to keep the H2H @ least close! That was why I welcomed the ascent of Novak in '08! He brought me back to the tour as it was just too sad after Rafa was embarr. Roger by then! I saw the potential & started Nole-blog when it appeared he was going to catch up after '16 FO & a total of 12 majors @ the X!
***Roger: 4 Slams after turning 30, 3 after 35
Rafa: 8 Slams after turning 30, 2 after 35
Novak: 10 Slams after turning 30, 2 after 35
...From '73-2016--a per. of 44 yrs--there were no 35 yo Slam winners. Gimeno was 34 when he won his, but that was still '72. The closest thing was Agassi in '03 when he was 32.
I'd also suggest that the discrepancy btwn. Roger's "mere" 4 post-30 & Rafa's 8 & Novak's 10 is that Roger had to deal w/ peak Nadovic during his 30s, whereas, those 2 didn't have the =valent as they entered their 30s. And Roger's 3 Slams in '17-18 @ age 35-36 is almost certainly @ least partially due to Novak's down X during those yrs. I'm not sure Roger in '17-18 was significantly better, if >er @ all than he was in '14-15 when he lost 3 finals to Novak (although t/b fair to Roger, that was Novak's absol. peak).
The Big 3 were just so much >er > everyone else. It's kind of like mountain ranges: they are akin to the Himalayas. So = if they're not playing @ "Everest level" (say, Roger in '06, Rafa in '13, Novak in '15), they can still play @ "Annapurna level" & be >er > everyone else, b/c there are no Himalaya-caliber players on tour, except for m/b Andy in '16.
...We haven't had any elite guys like that in decades other > the Big 3 & Andy for a few yrs. LostGen certainly weren't there, & NextGen while >er > LostGen--still maxed out. We can hope that w/ the young Mill-Gen, we might get one or 2 Andes caliber players, but they're not there yet. Again, the 2 guys w/ > upside, Alcaraz & Rune turn 20 this yr.***
***Djokovic's the only player in tennis history (M or F) to have won all of the >est events in 3 sep. decades. - He's won a Slam + Tour Finals + Masters title in the 2000s, 2010s & 2020s.***
ReplyDelete...Winning every major event on the ATP tour at least 2 or 3 X's is > a measuring stick of >ness! Djokovic name has taken over the rec.-bks w/ Standalone accomp. that may never be achieved again! He's been doing it going into his 3rd decade of excel.!
***Slam Title Defenses done
01. Graf - 10 X's Defended
02. Nadal - 10 X's Defended
03. Federer - 10 X's Defended
04. Djokovic - 9 X's Defended
05. Borg - 8 X's Defended
06. Navratilova - 8 X's Defended
07. Evert - 6 X's Defended
08. Serena - 6 X's Defended
09. Sampras - 6 X's Defended
Nole has 9 successful defenses of GS titles. 5 X's @ AO ('12, '13, '16, '20, '21) & 4 X's @ Wimbl. ('15, '19, '21, '22).
===
Djokovic wins FO over Ruud in str. sets! This makes his tally #23, surpassing Fedal's 20-22 majors resp.! Novak's tied w/ Serena Wms. & just 1 behind Court! He has 3 CGS: 10 AO's, 7 Wimbls., 3 USO's, & now 3 FO's! He re-acquires the #1 ranking, now set @ 388 wks. & counting! Like '21, he's on course for another big rec., a CYGS! He still needs to pick up his 8th Wimbl.! He's now allowed in the States w/ no Covid vaccine so he w/b @ the USO! The recs. just keep piling up! "Congrats Nole!"
---
The Big 3 & the GS race 🏆
'10:
16 - Fed
9 - Nadal
1 - Djokovic
'20:
20 - Fed
20 - Nadal
17 - Djokovic
'23:
23 - Djokovic
22 - Nadal
20 - Fed
---
GOATković:
A rec. 23 GS titles
A rec. 67 Big Titles
A rec. Triple Career GS
A rec. 10 AO Titles
A rec. 34 Slam Finals App's
A rec. 387 Wks. #1
A rec. 7x YE #1
A rec. tying 6x ATP Finals titles
A rec. 38 Masters 1000 titles
A rec. Double Career Golden Masters
A rec. 80+ wins in all 4 slams
A rec. 16,950 ATP pts. - single season
A rec. holder of 4 str. slams @ once in 3 diff. surfaces
Only man to def. Fed @ Wimbl. Finals 3x
Only man to def. Nadal @ RG 2x
Pos. H2H > Fed
Pos. H2H > Nadal
>est vs top 10 ever
>est win % in TB's
>est all X returner
>est 2 hand-BH ever
>est off. to defense ever
>est mover ever
>est champ. > age 36
Since '10, GOATković alone has won 22 GS tourns., while Fedal together have won 20.
---
Until '11, I never thought Djokovic had a chance of catching up w/ Fedal in slam titles. Even after going 10-1 vs them that yr., the chance was tiny. After '15, I thought it was a real poss. Today, Djokovic has done it.
For all of the claims of weak era on this forum, it’s a stunning & remarkable achievement b/c Djokovic has gotten older & slower. To compensate, he's improved his serve, net play, & tactics. Handily beating a fit 24-yo Ruud, arguably the 3rd best clay courter right now behind Nadal & Djokovic is no small feat. And this era is weaker, but Djokovic’s prime era was one of the strongest ever. He has had to play 2 other all-X GOAT contenders throughout his career: 59 matches vs Nadal, 18 of them in slams, 50 matches vs Fed, 17 of them in slams. Borg-McEnroe is considered one of tennis’ >est rivalries & only played each other 14 X's, 4 X's in slams.
Now Djokovic leads the slam race, not just ahead of Fedal, but ahead of every man who has ever played tennis. He returns to #1 today & his X @ #1 is >er > any other man or woman ever. It w/b notably longer had his Wimbl. pts. counted. Going by the #'s, Djokovic is the GOAT & by no small margin. I never imagined that when I started rooting for this “underdog.”***
***Earth's Mightiest Warrior in his last 4 app. @ AO, RG & W combined is 80-2
ReplyDeleteLast 4 AOs:
'19 - Won the title
'20 - Won the title
'21 - Won the title
'23 - Won the title
Last 4 RGs:
'20 - Lost in final
'21 - Won the title
'22 - Lost in qtrs.
'23 - Won the title
Last 4 Wimbledons.:
'18 - Won the title
'19 - Won the title
'21 - Won the title
'22 - Won the title
The only losses were to "King of clay" himself, Nadal @ RG. That's a brutal strike rate across all 3 surfaces.***
The delusion & hypocrisy w/b rampant for yrs. to come as Novak assumes every meaningful rec.! People have had a neg. impression of him long B4 he became a threat to Fedal's legacies! The closer he got w/ tons of success winning his majors & masters in bunches, the > desperate the "hate!" The stupidest thing mentioned is "he missed them in their prime" & now "the era's weak!" The brain damage can't be explained, but in this country we elected Trump! We're totally fk'd up in the head; esp. the women who supported the man! I stopped caring what others thought due to not taking them seriously! They can't possibly believe 1/2 the crap they spew! It's incoherant ramblings which's embarrassing!
---
In tennis, the true Greats aren't spoken of @ all if = remembered! I personally think Tilden is right up there who owned tennis like no other for over a decade! Then there was Budge, Kramer, & Gonzalez! Laver cemented himself on a high pedestal b/c of 2 CYGS; 1 as an Am. in '62, then after being off the tour as a pro for 5-6 yrs., he did it again in OE tennis in '69! Rosewall gets an honorary mention due to his X rivaling Laver! Borg took over the mantle as the >est for a while taking 11 Majors in OE! Hard to believe that led the rec.bk. until Sampras w/ 14! Federer broke all the recs. in < a decade @ I thought his status w/b secure for yrs. to come! It didn't last long w/ Nadovic beating him like a drum early & often! Now it's Djokovic @ the top; = over Nadal! As much talent as there is in this new gen., I just can't see any dramatic change! The game's brutal these days & > of these players are delicate flowers compared to Fedalovic!
***I said something like this B4, that it w/b poss. that there’s a player who wins 12 slams & c/b considered as great as the Big 3 b/c he’s winning m/b the CYS vs a rougher, ruder field. ...You can’t shoehorn such incompatible eras into one big cosy era. Today, the Big 3 get titles too easily.***
When you use the term "easily" when it comes to the Big 3's winning ways, it's all relative! The same players prob. would have won all those titles & chps., but the tour extended their reigh by making Masters' finals BO3! I see it kind of pathetic that = the YEC has been whittled down to BO3! The next to happen w/b the majors, but it w/b a while longer I HOPE! As for Sampras, the world wanted t/b part of history by anointing him The BOAT, GOAT, & > guy! We all jumped on that bandwagon, but after seeing these guys now, it's an embarrassment as he never = played a FO final! How did we allow that?
***Nadal's been having health issues since his early 20's. Everybody said "Nadal playing after 30? Forget about it." In a way it's awesome that I could watch him play this long. Wasn't expecting it & def. wasn't counting on it.***
It was Rafa's playing style that pushed me away as a fan! He seemed to work too hard = vs players ranked outside the top 100! IMO it was so unnec. to have to "go to war" for 3-5 sets playing so defensively when commentators bragged about his aggressive game & volley; esp. in doubles! All too often some nobody would take him to the limit early in tournaments; = in Paris! WHY? It wasn't like Nole didn't have his share of marathons, but it didn't affect him the same way! That stretching he does has saved him so often it seems! Nadal's been pulling muscles & tearing ligaments for as long as I can recall! It w/b the reason Novak'll + a lot > to his resume B4 retiring! I think Nadal's done! He hasn't been himself since that FO last yr.! He's being abused by WC's!
***The ‘greatest’ of all X can't be scientifically proven, but Novak Djokovic is by all accounts, the > accomplished & it’s not = close anymore.
ReplyDeleteIn order of importance:
1. Most GS
2. Rec. wks @ #1
3. Won 4 slams in a row - Nole Slam
4. Won each slam @ least 3 X's
5. Most Masters titles includ. only player GM twice
6. Most wins vs Top 10
7. Most wins over Top 5
8. >est ELO rating ever - a measure of peak dom.
9. Most ranking pts. in a season
10. Winning rec. vs Fedal
11. Player w/ > wins over Fed @ Wimbl., 3-0 Finals vs him
12. Player w/ > of wins of Rafa @ RG, arguably > difficult
13. Tied for > EOY Cup wins
14. > Slam Finals
I’ll tell why he's The GOAT. On top of the absurd stats & recs. he has, it’s his perseverance & work ethic. This man had to deal w/ Fedal. Fedal destroyed other careers, but made Djokovic's stronger. All the haters, elite media & gov'ts, all have been vs him. ...To me, nothing c/b > inspirational.
---
Djokavic turned pro '03. From '03-10 he won 1 major, Fed won 16 Majors, Nadal won. From '03-10, Fed led the H2H 13-6, 4-2 in slams.
Bottom Line: Djokavic couldn’t beat the Big 2 while they were in their prime. His ascent was in line w/ Fed's descent, along w/ lasting longer physically than Nadal.***
The delusion is real! If Djokovic hadn't played Fedal in their PRIME, what was this last decade of dom. by the man? BTW, Nadal's just a yr. older! That argument about "Prime" & a weak era is plain delusional!
***Guys, did Federer really go 0-3 vs Novak in Wimbledon Finals?***
They don't like to talk about it; esp. '19 Final w/ 2 MP's! His fans say he was "past it" by then & Novak can't take credit for def. an old man! It doesn't matter that Fed beat Nadal 2 yrs. B4 that! You won't get rational discussions w/ Fedal fans! The frustration runs too deep!
***Still a Novak fan? ;-) ***
Nole w/b the last of the true elites of the GAME! Fedalovic are characters we may never see again! We've had some > players over the decades, but they didn't rule their eras for 20+ yrs.! Few've been able to overcome the Big 3 from = taking the peanuts out of the bowl of 250's, 500's, or M-1000's when their concentration or desire might not've been @ their best! There was lit'l in the way of dips; esp. w/ Fedovic! They maintained their levels @ the top for a very long X w/ Novak being the > consistent getting to final after final after final! No one'll surpass that '15 season getting to all 4 majors finals (winning 3) & playing 8 M-1000's, got to all the finals, then won 6! His name's already riddled the rec.-bks, over-writing Fed'! You have to apprec. the Tennis Intel.'s talking CYGS already w/ the man being 36! That has nothing to do w/ a weak era which's asinine! He still has to go out there to perform vs the best! His game is impressive, but he's still not my fave! Now you can put select videos of him destroying Nadal & I'll watch them on a loop like '16 Qatar or '19 AO! In a lot of ways, I'm still recovering from the excessively long '12 AO! I = predicted when serving for the match, Novak's going to allow Rafa to brk. & steal that TB! I'd been up over 24 hrs. & I'm still PO'd it went 5:53! Rafa just wouldn't let it go until that opp. missing a passing shot a truck could've driven thru! It gave Novak life to come back & win his 7th in a row of Nadal! It's real apprec. that he's thwarted Nadal ascending to a "palacial tennis heaven!" That spot's reserved for Djokovic now!
***Great post buddy. The players Novak has beaten in his last 7 slam victories have been the best, unfort. Ruud, Tsitsipas, Kyrgios, Berretini, Tsitsipas, Medvedev, & Thiem. One match v Rafa in Paris in '21 was a full match vs an actual player. Not a weak era @ all!***
***It's McEnroe's 82-3 in '84 that's the > dom. & may never be broken. Worth noting that it's an Open Era rec., like Djokovic's youngest SF'ist rec. They don't hold those recs all X since Budge & Laver were younger > Nadal to complete the CS & Rosewall was younger > Djokovic to make the SF of all 4 Slams.***
ReplyDeleteYa gotta acknowledge Novak's '15 outdoing his '11 by winning a 6th Masters & the YEC @ the end of the season capping rec. pts. & $$ @ 16,585 & $21+ M resp.! He played 13 of 14 major ATP events making all the finals, winning 10; finalist @ FO, Can. M-1000, & Cinci!
***Yea, I forgot about the pts. rec. & not sure if he set a cons. big finals rec., but I think so. The pts. rec. though is another one that's going t/b tough to brk. The Big 3 have some > recs.
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The USO's essentially open for anyone to win. Has been for yrs. now.***
It's odd how things have changed over the decades! Back in the day, it was the AO & FO which c/b up for grabs by just about any odd player in the top #10-20 b/c "some" top players just skipped the event! The most anonymous winners @ AO were Edmondson, Kriek, & Johansson! In Paris a clay court specialist was assured of winning! On grass, upsets were the norm w/ odd wins by Cash, Stich, Krajicek, & Ivanisevic! Now all 3 have players that own them; Roger @ SW 19, Novak "down under," & Rafa in Paris! Now the USO has become a WC event where just about anyone can sneak in & steal a Champ.! Since Fed's 5 in a row, we've had 1st X winners of Medvedev, Cilic, Thiem, & of course, Alcaraz out of nowhere!
***You create parity by earning your place, not by being handed an easier opp. to succeed.***
But that's what has been occurring the last 15 yrs.! The ATP accommodated Fedal in particular by changing M-1000 finals from BO5 to BO3! They played a few 4-5 set finals necessitating one or both to WD from the next event! Going to BO3 really helped Fedalovic over the yrs in acquiring just about all the major ATP events, including the YEC which blew my mind when it went BO3! The season couldn't end on a BO5 match? No wonder Fedovic own 12 of them; Nalbandian stealing '05 final over Roger in 5!
***ITA bro, & further watering it down makes it easier for nonentities to become historic champs. The achievements of the Big 3 have been facilitated partly by that decision to make things easier for them, as if they weren’t already made easier > ever by the opp.
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Looks like the Fedal GOAT discussion has been put to bed & Fed fans can finally relax, and now everyone is talking about >est Athlete of All X. You know you're doing well when the comparisons are no longer w/ other tennis players, but w/ guys like Brady, Bolt, Jordan, LaBron, & Ali.***
Yeah, that kind of talk about other athletes in other sports due to Novak's excellence @ 36 yo! All of a sudden he's being compared to best athletes of all X!
***Djokovic, at 35-36, has won cons. Wimbl., the WTF's, the AO, & RG (DNP USO). Four cons. "Big 5" tournaments...at that age. Ten cons. yrs. of weaker & weaker NG's are ineludibly to blame in a big part. (Fedal ALSO benefited tremendously of this anomaly, but Djokovic is taking it to ridiculous proportions).
---
Nole's GOAT feats in the last 12 months:
Wins 7th Wimbl. title to = Sampras, winning 21st slam to brk. tie w/ Fed
Wins rec. =ing 6th YEC w/ Fed
The oldest winner of the YEC title
Joins Fed in winning the YEC @ 3 diff. venues
Longest gap btwn 1st YEC title ('08) & last YEC title ('22) 14 yrs.
Wins 10th AO title - =s Nadal's slam total of 22 slams
1st player to win a HC slam 10 X's
Brks. the all X rec. for > wks @ #1 held by a male or female, beating Graf's total
Wins 3rd RG Title - Brks the GS rec., sole owner of the rec.
1st player to win a triple CS
1st player to win @ least 3 slams on 3 surfaces***
***Against which type of players did the Big 3 struggle?
ReplyDeleteNadal, for ex., lost a few X's to serve-bots @ Wimbl. in the 1st wk. This rarely happened to Djokovic & Fed.
Djokovic seems to struggle vs Wawrinka > > Fedal. Though I can’t really say which other player Djokovic struggled vs which plays like Wawrinka.
Federer seems to lose > often @ slams to Delpo & Tsonga, then Djokovic & Nadal. Fed also lost to Cilic @ USO'14. I can see some similarities btwn. those players.
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Federer - well, I’m not sure if we can call Nadal an archetype, but his main & only real struggle was w/ Rafa Nadal in his peak yrs. of '03-09… What Nadal could do is unique. It’s way > just topspin to da BH… it’s elite passing shots from both wings, superhuman speed, ability to attack slice expertly, spiny 2nd serve, etc.
After he somewhat lost a step post '08/09 though the archetype, he struggled w/ was def. the big hitters, esp. dual winged big servers. DelPo, Tsonga, Berdych, Soderling, Cilic, = Gulbis, Anderson, Raonic, etc. all beat him. By taking the racquet out of his hands early they could elim. the Fed wizardry & expose his somewhat lacking footspeed & defense post-'10.
...Nadal: well, no one really gives him trouble on clay so focusing on grass and HC, def. players w/ stable BH's who are willing to take the ball early & rush him either w/ power or precision. ...If you can rush him off both wings, his high RHS topspin strokes can def. be exploited, & you can take the racquet out of his hands by capitalizing on the short spinny balls he’ll cough up.
At Wimbl. this is an = >er issue, he’s always had issues w/ big servers & people who bring the game to him, esp. on that 1st wk. grass. Even in '07,'10, etc., he went down 2-0 to guys like this. In '12-15, he just started losing to them. Post-'14 physical decline he has also struggled w/ raw power.
Oh, & he hates when you can take his 2nd serve early & jump on it. In recent memory Tiafoe & McDonald did this actually quite well, but it’s a strategy that Davydenko used expertly & = guys like Hewitt, Blake, Youzhny, Tsonga, & Murray in their early HC wins over Rafa from '05-09.
Djokovic: I think you need to look @ the BH wing of the player 1st. You need to disrupt Novak’s comfortable BH-BH advantage, if you can’t, the match w/b over quickly. You look @ his losses - Nishikori, Murray, Wawrinka, obviously Fedal, recently Zverev, Medvedev, Thiem, but also guys like Cecchinato, Haas, Kohlschreiber, etc… You can disrupt it 3 ways:
#1, extreme solidity w/ a 2-hander & > power - Murray, Nishikori, Medvedev, Zverev, Safin. basically Novak doesn’t have a noticeable BH-BH advantage due to their solidity & BH.
#2, slice, slice, slice, - this is the Fed playbook, but Wawrinka, Murray, & = Nadal used it to > effect. He isn't amazing @ generating offense off a slice & you can reset rallies using it, as well as using the short slice to draw him into the forecourt.
#3 - creating angles off the BH & giving him difficult balls off that wing - this is the one-hander formula which has beaten him @ RG 6 X's now. Wawrinka's the poster boy of this, but Fed also does it. You create > spin off the BH w/ a one-hander & it throws off his rhythm.
...If you can’t match Novak’s intensity from the baseline it isn’t a match, he’ll just outlast you. But what he lacks is that elite offensive gear IMO, the Sampras, Federer, McEnroe gene of creating pure attacking brilliance out of nothing.
if you can keep the ball deep, esp. in return his serve+1 isn't that damaging, he doesn’t like to go big un< necess. Murray, Wawa, Nadal, & Fed all had > success w/ the block return, Med & Thiem also got good depth on their returns in their wins. You’ve got to make rallies neutral & be brave.***
Thanks!
...Novak's '11 saved us from cons. seasons of Rafa winning everything as his '10 was 1 of his best efforts! Rafa could've sealed the deal as the GOAT rather early as Novak only had 1 major @ the X! That was a true rivalry unlike the make-believe 1 created w/ Fedal!
ReplyDelete***What do you think about Djokovic's retirement? If you were him, when do you think is the right X for you to bow out & try something new?***
I don't = understand the reasoning behind asking the ??! Novak has won 2 majors this yr. & was in the final of the 3rd! WTF? I believe he has 2-3 > good yrs. left in him regardless of Fedal's retiring! Everything's gravy due to him holding every important rec. on the books including YE #1's (7), 389 wks. @ #1, 23 Majors, & a Double GM's! That's just @ the top of the list! The guy owns just about all of them except longevity since he's still young compared to Fed!
***The ??'s > about the comp. side of things. Yes, he has the recs., but clearly a guy like him will want to stay comp. also. It's > about down the line, what w/b the things you feel could start to indicate that it's X to move on.***
No X soon that's for sure! You saw how he finished last season & started this one w/ a routine win "down under!" It just makes no sense to = talk about retiring IMO!
***Nole looks like he has the same movement & game, so he can continue until the next gen steps up.***
That's the reason I'm not = discussing retirement! He's still running like a deer & takes the best to the limit, running them to death & destroying their will!
***Two slams a yr. for the next 3 yrs. Carlos w/b splitting them w/ Djokovic.
Finally; rational thought! It's a rarity w/ many trying to put a stake thru the heart of the Big 3! Novak has 2-3 good yrs. left in him! Might = p/up another FO!
***It's hard to rule vs Djokovic when you look @ what he's accomplished in the last 5 yrs. He's 36 yo & doesn't move or defend as well as he did in his prime, but he's clearly estab. that he has no issues w/ taking on anyone from the NG group in a BO5 set match. What many people don't want to admit to is that Djokovic should've beaten Carlos in str. sets @ Wimbl. Carlos deserved to win the match, but the key to his victory was based on Djokovic collapsing during the 2nd set TB. I'd like Djokovic's chances in a potential rematch. Carlos isn't as good as the Big 3. The fact that a 36 yo Djokovic is basically on = terms w/ him is > enough proof of that.
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I wish Djoker wins 2 > slams. The # 25 is a good w/ or w/o the Wimbl. rec. if that includes Fed's Wimbl. rec. tied, then it w/b an add'l caveat. But w/ or w/o it, the #25 is a must IMO.***
I'm liking = #'s! I was looking @ 24 or 26, but #28 isn't bad!
***'26' may or may not be possible. Too much luck w/b needed for it. '28?" No chance. Alcaraz & Rune w/b consistently beating him by then; no chance. '25-26' is his ceiling & luck w/b needed for that too. He chh 30, but he left some slams on the table to inferiors & also to bans & DQs.
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Slam rec. safe for Novak. He's done the hard work so thankfully he can relax a bit now. - Yes, key slams were WB'19 & RG'21 IMO. Too bad for US'14 & US'20 b/c he'd already have total rec., but still, unlikely Nadal can overtake this one now.***
***W/ Nick's talent he should've won @ least 4 to 5 slams by now if he's that talented & good; @ the very least win a Master title.***
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, Fedalovic have changed the history/legacy of tennis forever! The destinies of 2 or 3 eras of players that prob. should've accomp. > but for those 3 players over 20 yrs. of dom. may never be fulfilled! ...Novak's the last man standing it seems; sans a good-bye tour of Nadal next season!
***Djokovic didn't get into Fed's head until '14 when he was well beyond his prime.
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That’s what I thought for a long X. But upon watching some earlier matches btwn. them, it was clear that it started > earlier. Their 1st Slam final @ the USO in '07 (after Fed lost to Djokovic a few wks earlier in the Can. Open) showed just how tight Fed was vs Djokovic. Fed was down a brk in the 1st & 2nd sets & only b/c young Novak choked big X did Fed win those 2 sets in TB's. Then @ the AO '08, Fed was up a brk in the 1st set only for Novak to come back & win that set & then win the remaining 2 sets as well. ...Then in the '10 & '11 USO's, Fed lost those 2 infamous SFs despite having 2 MP's in the 5th set. One can argue it wasn’t until after these 2 fiascos that Novak got into Fed’s head, so I get your pt., but I think = B4, Fed was already feeling the nerves in matches vs Novak.***
Thx!
***How does Djokovic's dom. @ GS tourns. compare to other tennis players?
ND’s periods of dom. based on GS's are from AO'11 to RG'16 & from Wimbl.'19 to Wimbl.'23.
Fed’s only per. of dom. was from Wimbl.'03 to AO'10.
In this per., Fed won 16 GS's out of the 27 contested. Out of the 11, he couldn’t win, he reached the final in 6. He won both USP & Wimbl. 5 cons. X's in that per. Such was his dom. that Fed still remains the last player to defend the USO title.
Djokovic won 12/22 contested in his 1st per. of dom. & 11/20 contested (Djoko was banned in 2. It’s really 11/18) in the 2nd per. of dom. In his 1st per., Djokovic reached 6 finals, & in the 2nd, 3 finals (1 to contest).
Nadal’s per. of dom. was from RG'08 to RG'14 & after that from RG'18 to RG'22.
Nadal won 11/25 GS's contested in the 1st per. & 8/20 GS's in the 2nd per. He was runner-up in 4/14 & 1/12 remaining GS's resp.
Bjorn Borg won 11/20 GS's from Wimbl.'76 to RG '81. He was runner-up in 3/9 remaining GS's.
Pete Sampras won 12/29 GS's from Wimbl.'93 to Wimbl.'00.
During Djokovic’s 1st per. of dom., he held all 4 GS's simult. ('15–16), something Fedal never managed. In his 2nd per. of dom., Djokovic came agonizingly close to completing the Cal. Slam.
Fed held the world #1 ranking for a rec. 237 cons. wks btwn. '04 & '08. In comparison, Djokovic’s best rec. stands @ 122 cons. wks btwn. '14 & '16. Nadal’s stands @ 56 & Sampras’ @ 102 wks.
Clearly, Fed’s per. of dom. is the best we’ve seen in tennis. Djokovic can topple that w/ a few > GS win in the upcoming tourns. He has a golden chance to complete the CS in '23 & register the > dom. era in tennis history.
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Despite Djokovic having won 23 slams, it doesn't seem t/b as held highly as Fedal when they got the slam rec., why is that so? ...Now if he wins another it's like being a stat padder vs very low comp.
I'd say the same if Rafa or Roger was in that pos.***
It's not surprising as it goes on in other sports; hypocrisy, favoritism, & just plain idiocy! The Tennis Intelligentsia just doesn't care about the rec.bk.! This is about forming a narative history for the future readers! They're making out that "tennis" begins & ends w/ Fedal & anyone else in the pic's an inteloper! What makes it insane is that Novak acquired these recs. faster > Fedal as well as owning the > important! I bought in earlier thinking "if Fed retires after his Wimbl. wins @ either '12 or '17," he could fall behind both Nadal & Djokovic & still say legit. "what if?" He messed up by hanging on too long, stealing 3 > Majors, but he's still in 3rd pl. in just about every category!
***When Fedal were ahead I had no qualms saying they were >er. You can’t argue w/ the recs. & what’s achieved. Back then Djokovic had a lot of work to do to catch them. Even when he was dom. in'11,'15 or other per., he wasn’t >er. They were the top dogs back then. However, now that Djokovic has passed them, many fans just can’t accept it. They need t/b @ peace & let go! If Alcaraz or someone else passes Djokovic recs., esp. major titles, then I w/b the 1st to say he’s >er > Djokovic & the new BOAT or GOAT.***
ReplyDeleteThe frustration build-up started early! After Novak won his 1st FO to acquire just 12 Majors to Fedal's 17-14 resp., the so called experts like Wilander & McEnroe were already heralding the ascension of Novak! They didn't see any reason he wouldn't overtake Fedal sooner or later! ...The tour has been his plaything ever since '18 Wimbl., = w/ limitations to his play due to Covid & bans to 2 countries w/ majors & Masters events he wasn't allowed to play! He still took over the rec.bk. & anything won now is just gravy to set the #'s so high no one may ever brk them!
***ITA. The > he won the > bitter they got. It’s now @ very unhealthy levels &'ll likely never change. If Nole gets to the USO final & loses, what a terrible thing that w/b for his career! But get this, if he wins it's = worse b/c it's a hyper inflated slam title vs mug opps. who couldn't hold the jockstrap of any player from prev. gens. So basically playing > matches & staying comp. is a bad thing for Djokovic's rec. brk'n legacy where he already has all 3 big recs. to his name.***
It's a no win situation for Novak when it comes to some fans! They were ready to put him out to pasture after dropping a 5 set Wimbl. final w/ taking the 1st 2 majors earlier! They're insane! It was just 2 yrs. ago he was on the verge of a CYGS! Did they forget? He was on course to do it again B4 Carlos upset him! I think the guy has 2 or 3 > "great" yrs. left in him! He doesn't look t/b slowing down & just won his 3rd FO vs kids almost 1/2 his age!
***You are absol. right. I've said it B4 & I'll say it again, too many invested a seriously unhealthy amt. of emotional energy into a specific player. ...Some need that GOAT title b/c they want t/b on the 'right side' of history; that they picked the right horse.
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Masters' #'s are skewed. Many Masters had BO5 finals during Fed's peak, as did the YEC & some 500 events (incl. Basel). Fed played in 11 BO5 finals in '06. He often skipped sev. of the HC Masters. Regard<, @ the >-important HC slams, a player wouldn't have 6 losses in USO finals vs 5 diff. players if he were the HC GOAT. He reached 19 finals of HC slams & took 13. Who is better? W/o +ing overall stats @ AO & USO.
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If Murray won that day "down under" in 2012 vs a future 23 X GS champ, then it means Murray was that damn good on that day.***
No one'll match that kind of tenaciousness! Novak survived 5 hrs. in the SF vs Murray, then went to war for almost 6 hrs. (5:53) in the final vs Nadal! That made 7 in a row for Novak over Rafa! That was the 1st X, done again during Rafa's wane in '15-16!
***Novak's been exceptionally lucky in his opps. for a few seasons now. He’s been gifted easy slams & I’m sure you’re all apprec. of that. You certainly seem t/b. Us Rafa fans are envious, brother!
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Congrats Djokovic: 3rd Cinci title, 39 Masters Chps. & best player in the world. Djokovic's the GOAT for a reason.***
As I said, everything's gravy now! Djokovic just needs to win MC next yr. t/b a Triple GMs' winner! Another 1st? Yeah!
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Well, when I was growing up, tennis wasn't in the Olympics so few if any really cared about winnng OG until after Fedal got theirs in Dubs./Sngls!
***I don’t ct. the Olympics either buddy. I recall Sampras skipped the ATL Olympics, poss. the > nat'listic Olympic Games since Hitler & Agassi screeched, yelped, & essentially cheated his way to the GM.***